[Combat Mechanics] All attack animation frames should be cancellable

[BassChamber]

Started a thread in general discussions subforum some days ago, but would like to add it as a suggestion.

In the current build every attack animation have uncancellable frames. This leads to an inconsistent combat gameplay, mostly when using melee weapons against group of enemies.

Lot of times you see an attack coming, but you are stuck in an attack animation so you cant avoid get hit. At the end, you are conditioned to avoid combat at all because you have not a reliable answer to enemy attacks.

To adapt to this mechanic, the best strategy is to avoid fighting groups of enemies upclose, and use long range weapons and abilities with added piercing.

This allienates players and spoils an otherwise superb and fun combat system.

I would love to test a branch with no roll/parry/jump cancellation restrictions. I bet it would be SUPER fun.

[ChaosSabre]

I have to say roll would need a bit of a less cooldown on higher cells but that's bout it. Since it's possible to get some really bad RNG with certain enemies that put you in unavoidable damage positions which encourages control skills to be the best choice over anything else if you are going melee.

[uuuhhhh-Ghostly]

Roll should cancel Attack but attack should not cancel Roll. Nothing should cancel Roll. Parry whiffs should be punished. Back steps should be introduced. I'm sure there is more in my head.

[BassChamber]

uuuhhhh-Ghostly eredeti hozzászólása:

Roll should cancel Attack but attack should not cancel Roll. Nothing should cancel Roll. Parry whiffs should be punished. Back steps should be introduced. I'm sure there is more in my head.

Exactly.

I would add parry should cancel roll. In fact, if Im not wrong, roll and parry (or it cooldowns time) are mutually cancelable in the current build (within a frames window). This allows to roll-parry-roll again for stylish combat shenanigans.

[BassChamber]

ChaosSabre eredeti hozzászólása:

I have to say roll would need a bit of a less cooldown on higher cells but that's bout it. Since it's possible to get some really bad RNG with certain enemies that put you in unavoidable damage positions which encourages control skills to be the best choice over anything else if you are going melee.

Unfortunately that would not address the issue regarding weapons with massive uncancellable frames window and the other issue with combos being too risky to worth it over long range and wide area of effect abilities.

Also, a core combat mechanic should stay for all difficulties. Otherwise it would be cofusing.

[uuuhhhh-Ghostly]

Parrying and/or blocking Mid-Roll might seem cool but that's probably not a good idea. When to Roll and when to Block and when to Parry, are fundamental timing and decision skills, learned as you play and improve.

Parry cancelling a Roll, wouldn't really work so well for me. That takes away strategy, rather than adding it. Considering we're invincible during a Roll anyway and have a cooldown after; being able to Parry/Block quickly after is extremely useful. And of course it would vary distance of movement. Consistency in jump height and length, Roll length, Backstep size etc; is very important to not annoy players.

Now... locking the direction of an attack, would be very nice. I'm always attacking the wrong direction, by being too quick.

[BassChamber]

uuuhhhh-Ghostly eredeti hozzászólása:

Parrying and/or blocking Mid-Roll might seem cool but that's probably not a good idea. When to Roll and when to Block and when to Parry, are fundamental timing and decision skills, learned as you play and improve.

Parry cancelling a Roll, wouldn't really work so well for me. That takes away strategy, rather than adding it. Considering we're invincible during a Roll anyway and have a cooldown after; being able to Parry/Block quickly after is extremely useful. And of course it would vary distance of movement. Consistency in jump height and length, Roll length, Backstep size etc; is very important to not annoy players.

Now... locking the direction of an attack, would be very nice. I'm always attacking the wrong direction, by being too quick.

We are getting a bit offtopic, because cancelling defense moves has different applications than cancelling attack moves.

In fact it would be interesting to discuss the overall combat gameplay system in an specific thread in General Discussion subforum. Im not gonna open it though, because there would be morons accusing me for opening repeated threads.

Still, I would like to stress that in the current build it is possible to cancel the roll animation using directional inputs and using parry. There is a window of uncancellable frames though. I would not change it.

[Timmetry]

Everything absolutely should, as it DOES, cancel roll. That way you can quickly roll in and stop at a specific point to get off a good hit. Otherwise you would be stuck rolling to a fixed length every time, and positioning your next melee attack in a crazy fight would be insanely difficult.

You should be able to, as you ARE currently able, to cancel an attack BEFORE it goes off, with a roll or jump. You should NOT be able to cancel the endlag of an attack. That takes away the disadvantage of using a slower weapon.

Keep in mind that they have specifically instituted a time limit before you can start your next roll. This is completely on purpose. If you could roll around constantly, it would be way too easy to avoid all attacks without needing to position yourself strategically at all.

This is not a beat-em-up game, any more than it is a smash game. It is supposed to be challenging. You are supposed to have to play carefully if you want to survive.

It's one thing to give infinite dodge cancels in a fast-paced 3D game where you are swarmed with enemies and already have ridiculous combos to dish out. There are so many directions that attacks can come from that it helps to balance this.

But in a 2D game, especially one where you are supposed to play in a methodical and calculated fashion with a high threshold for skill, giving the player the ability to roll away out of a jam at any time is just way too powerful.

Be happy that you have as many cancels as you do in this game. If the playstyle were closer to Dark Souls for instance, it would be far more ruthless. Not only are cancels hard to come by, but you have far fewer invulnerability frames on roll, and even a Stamina meter that prevents you from being able to spam attacks at all. For the difficulty of this game, its controls are honestly pretty dang lenient compared to what they could be.

[BassChamber]

Timmetry eredeti hozzászólása:

Everything absolutely should, as it DOES, cancel roll. That way you can quickly roll in and stop at a specific point to get off a good hit. Otherwise you would be stuck rolling to a fixed length every time, and positioning your next melee attack in a crazy fight would be insanely difficult.

You should be able to, as you ARE currently able, to cancel an attack BEFORE it goes off, with a roll or jump. You should NOT be able to cancel the endlag of an attack. That takes away the disadvantage of using a slower weapon.

Keep in mind that they have specifically instituted a time limit before you can start your next roll. This is completely on purpose. If you could roll around constantly, it would be way too easy to avoid all attacks without needing to position yourself strategically at all.

This is not a beat-em-up game, any more than it is a smash game. It is supposed to be challenging. You are supposed to have to play carefully if you want to survive.

It's one thing to give infinite dodge cancels in a fast-paced 3D game where you are swarmed with enemies and already have ridiculous combos to dish out. There are so many directions that attacks can come from that it helps to balance this.

But in a 2D game, especially one where you are supposed to play in a methodical and calculated fashion with a high threshold for skill, giving the player the ability to roll away out of a jam at any time is just way too powerful.

Be happy that you have as many cancels as you do in this game. If the playstyle were closer to Dark Souls for instance, it would be far more ruthless. Not only are cancels hard to come by, but you have far fewer invulnerability frames on roll, and even a Stamina meter that prevents you from being able to spam attacks at all. For the difficulty of this game, its controls are honestly pretty dang lenient compared to what they could be.

In fact, in the current version you are also able to cancel attacks after the active frames. It depends on the attack animation, some have more cancelable frames than others.

The disadvantage of using slow weapons is not only the uncancellable frames, it is also start up and end of animation frames. That is, combos are slower allowing enemies surrounding you to get an adantage.

Playing carefully means avoiding close combat against group of enemies at any cost, specially on higher difficulty levels. As you said, in other games where you are going to receive enemy fire from several positions and angles being able to react cancelling actions is a must.

... but this also happens en Dead Cells!! I see little difference between this and other hack n slash games.

Dead Cells is VERY difficult because it allows almost no mistake margin. Being able to cancel attacks with no restrictions doesnt change this. One mistake and you are dead.

Piling stats and overpowered turrets is what makes Dead Cells broken, not the ability to reac to incoming enemies attacks.

[uuuhhhh-Ghostly]

Timmetry eredeti hozzászólása:

Everything absolutely should, as it DOES, cancel roll. That way you can quickly roll in and stop at a specific point to get off a good hit. Otherwise you would be stuck rolling to a fixed length every time, and positioning your next melee attack in a crazy fight would be insanely difficult.

You should be able to, as you ARE currently able, to cancel an attack BEFORE it goes off, with a roll or jump. You should NOT be able to cancel the endlag of an attack. That takes away the disadvantage of using a slower weapon.

Keep in mind that they have specifically instituted a time limit before you can start your next roll. This is completely on purpose. If you could roll around constantly, it would be way too easy to avoid all attacks without needing to position yourself strategically at all.

This is not a beat-em-up game, any more than it is a smash game. It is supposed to be challenging. You are supposed to have to play carefully if you want to survive.

It's one thing to give infinite dodge cancels in a fast-paced 3D game where you are swarmed with enemies and already have ridiculous combos to dish out. There are so many directions that attacks can come from that it helps to balance this.

But in a 2D game, especially one where you are supposed to play in a methodical and calculated fashion with a high threshold for skill, giving the player the ability to roll away out of a jam at any time is just way too powerful.

Be happy that you have as many cancels as you do in this game. If the playstyle were closer to Dark Souls for instance, it would be far more ruthless. Not only are cancels hard to come by, but you have far fewer invulnerability frames on roll, and even a Stamina meter that prevents you from being able to spam attacks at all. For the difficulty of this game, its controls are honestly pretty dang lenient compared to what they could be.

Agree to disagree then.. I don't think I agree with any of what you said here.
Also, it is a fixed length Roll, with deviation and quick attacks out of it.

"Play carefully" You mean slow and boring and methodical, with Turrets and stuff, right?
That's why I haven't completed it yet.

Like Salt & Sanctuary?... This is still a harder game than that is, to play my style, because of unfortunate design decisions for CQC (I'll call it that).

BassChamber eredeti hozzászólása:

In fact, in the current version you are also able to cancel attacks after the active frames. It depends on the attack animation, some have more cancelable frames than others.

The disadvantage of using slow weapons is not only the uncancellable frames, it is also start up and end of animation frames. That is, combos are slower allowing enemies surrounding you to get an adantage.

Playing carefully means avoiding close combat against group of enemies at any cost, specially on higher difficulty levels. As you said, in other games where you are going to receive enemy fire from several positions and angles being able to react cancelling actions is a must.

... but this also happens en Dead Cells!! I see little difference between this and other hack n slash games.

Dead Cells is VERY difficult because it allows almost no mistake margin. Being able to cancel attacks with no restrictions doesnt change this. One mistake and you are dead.

Piling stats and overpowered turrets is what makes Dead Cells broken, not the ability to reacto to incoming enemies attack.

This makes more sense to me. I don't know what game Timmetry is playing.


I don't recognize or agree with Timmetry at all. Not even slightly. We must be polar opposites!

[BassChamber]

uuuhhhh-Ghostly eredeti hozzászólása:

This makes more sense to me. I don't know what game Timmetry is playing.


I don't recognize or agree with Timmetry at all. Not even slightly. We must be polar opposites!

My thoughts exactly. Maybe Timmetry and other players are used to slow paced and methodical gameplays like Dead Souls, where planning your next moves is more important than raw reflexes and advanced combat skills technique.

But I see few similarities between Dead Cells and those games. Dead Cells is an arcade. Short runs, fast action, tight combat, crazy and stylish combinations between attack and defense.

Dead Cells is way closer to DMC and Bayonetta (combat wise) than Dead Souls or Bloodborne.

[Timmetry]

BassChamber eredeti hozzászólása:

Dead Cells is way closer to DMC and Bayonetta (combat wise) than Dead Souls or Bloodborne.

lmfao no it isn't. NOT AT ALL. This is NOT a hack-n-slash game. It doesn't have combo's or special abilities you can unlock and use at any time. You can't replay levels. There's no story (for the most part). Everything is randomized. I have no clue why you are comparing it to a beat-em-up like DMC/Bayonetta.

But to be fair, it's not really that very like Dark Souls / Bloodborne either. I just used Dark Souls as a rough comparison to the difficulty (which is really not very accurate). It's a completely different style of game.

This is its own game. There isn't really any other like it. It's a hardcore Roguelight Metroidvania. It's a very difficult game. It's supposed to be.

Basically, what I'm getting from this thread is that you want this game to be something it isn't. You're expecting a certain genre when this game kind of defines its own genre. It's really unique and I love it for that. If you think even the basic gameplay is too hard, then maybe this game isn't for you.

If you want to see more of a certain playstyle, by all means make suggestions for certain weapons/skills that could benefit that playstyle. I have heard that Alpha is much more balanced for awesome Brutality paths, if you want to check it out.

If you think a certain item type or build is too powerful, then by all means explain why you think it's too powerful.

But don't expect the game to change into something it isn't. Because it's not going to. If you want an easy game, go play something else.

uuuhhhh-Ghostly eredeti hozzászólása:

"Play carefully" You mean slow and boring and methodical, with Turrets and stuff, right?
That's why I haven't completed it yet.

What a freaking surprise.

And for the record, I haven't used any turrets in quite a while. Just finished clearing the Clocktower on 2cell. There are plenty of more overpowered strategies if you will just keep playing and trying different things.

But that's the key. You have to keep playing and learning, if you want to get good at Dead Cells. This is not the kind of game you can just pick up play until you win. You need to actually get good first, and you need to be ready to die a whole lot before you will be able to do better. That's just the way it works with a more difficult game like this. But that's also why it has so much more replay-ability than just a simple hack-n-slasher.

[BassChamber]

Timmetry, you are failing to get the point.

I have finished several two cells runs in Alpha branch and got all four boss cells and all the weapons (but acid nerves and giants slayer) without using hunters grenade at all before the game decided to wipe out my save slot and made me start from one cell again.

The game is in fact easy when you abuse it broken mechanics. As I said a ton of times, just pile up Tactic stats and pick turrets. Or Brutality stats with phaser to one shot/two shot everything, bosses included.

Difficulty is not the problem, the problem is in the core of combat. It is badly designed, sorry.

And I am comparing core combat mechanics between games. Dead Cells one is way, way closer to DMC or Bayonetta than Dark Souls or Bloodborne.

Of course there are differences, but the basics are there. If you decide to take the melee combat route, you have to react to several incoming attacks while comboing foes, specially on higher difficulty levels.

Make frame cancellation system more lenient is not making the game easier, it is making it tighter. You have the proof in other games.

Whatever, I am already tired about all this "you want the game to be easier because you are bad at it" crap. To each his own, my suggestion is done.

[ChaosSabre]

Timmetry eredeti hozzászólása:

Be happy that you have as many cancels as you do in this game. If the playstyle were closer to Dark Souls for instance, it would be far more ruthless. Not only are cancels hard to come by, but you have far fewer invulnerability frames on roll, and even a Stamina meter that prevents you from being able to spam attacks at all. For the difficulty of this game, its controls are honestly pretty dang lenient compared to what they could be.

What? Dark Souls is waaaaaaaay easier than dead cells in every possible way.

[uuuhhhh-Ghostly]

Timmetry eredeti hozzászólása:

But that's the key. You have to keep playing and learning, if you want to get good at Dead Cells. This is not the kind of game you can just pick up play until you win. You need to actually get good first, and you need to be ready to die a whole lot before you will be able to do better. That's just the way it works with a more difficult game like this. But that's also why it has so much more replay-ability than just a simple hack-n-slasher.

I do understand that and I don't care about "winning". I don't play these types of games to win.

Spelunky; The Binding of Isaac WotL and Afterbirth; Enter the Gungeon... etc.

I play these because they are difficult and fun. Not because I want to win. I would play some AAA crap, if I wanted to win easily. Dark Souls III was great but wasn't that hard. Bloodborne is amazing but again, not that hard.

This game is awsome but not that hard, if you abuse a long range approach. It is however, very hard for my playstyle. That's why I believe that a change, adding the ability for me to cancel out of an attack and dodge an incoming enemy, not to mention a glowing red ball coming out of offscreen and landing at my feet, while I'm fighting, would be a perfect change.

It also won't change the learning curve and difficulty much at all. It will just feel fairer and still need the player to practice and learn the enemy patterns. Which is what I prefer in a game.

A high number of deaths for me, haven't felt like my fault. That's not good. It felt like the commands I entered, weren't being followed. That's why the info about uncancelable frames, here in discussions, has been invaluable. Now I know, they weren't unfair, they were not ignoring my inputs but the game is designed that way.

I'd love it to change for a bit so we can try out this different approach and see what it feels like.
I think it will be exhilirating.

[BassChamber]

My thoughts exactly Ghostly, glad to see other players understand my point.

Dead Cells runs only last 40 minutes maximum. It has not too much content regarding stages or complex mechanics.

What makes Dead Cells to last ton of hours is the sense of progression AND the fun gameplay.

And the gameplay is fun, no doubt, but developers took some questonable decisions regarding attack frames cancelling properties that can hinder it true potential.

Becaus Dead Cells gamplay has a HUGE potential. A potential that really flourishes when you have to fight groups of tough enemies than dont die in a pair of hits; that is, in higher difficulty levels.

I would like them to at least take a look at it.