[Balance] Vampirism, Tonic, and Contradictory Design

[Frosthaven]

Recently had an interesting conversation about vampirism, so I just wanted to share my personal thoughts on these pickups and how they carry with them some contradictions.

Vampirism

Vampirism gives you very light life-steal at the cost of taking a lot more damage if you get hit for its duration. So to get maximum effectiveness out of this item you have to get really good at avoiding damage - but if you get really good at avoiding damage you won't get much benefit out of the item since you'll be healthy.
[Paradox Intensifies].

Tonic

Ah the tonic. The future of wall carrots and kebabs alike! This guy sits behind the watcher currently. So in order to pickup a blueprint for more health, you have to get to a point in skill where you can clear the game without having a blueprint for more health.
[Paradox Intensifies More].

I feel like tonic would be a much better drop earlier in the game (if it is to exist at all) so that new players who haven't unlocked 4 flasks still get the opportunity to play for a little longer (and learn just a little bit more). Still feels a bit weird that it's a wall carrot on steroids, though!

Anyways

Feel free to drop your own observations and help me mold my viewpoint on these items.

[A Squirrel]

I think there's a weird balance at play here, and it's interesting. The game presumably does want you to have to go through the hard way, and once you've done it the first time, makes it easier for you to get back to where you were before.

The vampirism ability seems balanced actually - it gives you effectively infinite health as long as you don't take damage very _often_, sort of like having unlimited health flasks. So you can get hit once but then regenerate it over time. I like that as a piece of design, personally.

[Frosthaven]

Originally posted by A Squirrel:

The vampirism ability seems balanced actually - it gives you effectively infinite health as long as you don't take damage very _often_, sort of like having unlimited health flasks. So you can get hit once but then regenerate it over time. I like that as a piece of design, personally.

But therein lies the paradox. If you don't get hit very often, you wont need lifesteal in the first place - 4 flasks & rally would be enough (at which point that skill slot becomes more valuable for other things).

[Petrvs]

How do you unlock vampirism?

I agree on the paradoxes. But maybe that's by design?

Not sure it is a good thing or bad.

Perhaps the tonic should drop earlier, as to encourage new players and give a sense of achievement, more power etc.

[Bazelgeuse]

I dont understand tonic... the moment it said "only one use" i thought "this is a waste of a slot...its like making kabab a slot item" its useless. really. i dont even have vamperism unlocked yet. killed every mob on every map for blueprint unlocks, havent got a few yet. really want that shovel D:

[Mirror]

I never understood this affix, the lifesteal/take more damage...you find it on weapons too. The lifesteal is so bad! 1% and you take 50% more damage. it isnt designed well at all...not sure what the thinking behind this is. If i am going to take a lifesteal that hurts me it better fkn heal me for way more than that. They should make it just like the damage buffer +70% and +30%. That way its at least usable.

the tonic...pointless. One you get it from defeating the last boss. Two its a one use skill...only one of its kind. this item should not be a skill, should either be a new slot for food/tonic. Pick up one food and or tonic and save it till you need it. This would be a much better design than what we have right now.

I dont get the french sometimes...i mean wtf.

[Markucjo]

WELL if you have some skill point then tonic heals you for A LOT without need of standing still in middle of boss fight, it does takes up a inventory slot tho i would be really pleased if tonic would be changed into item that generates hp from killing enemies (like 1+"skill level" hp for every enemy) so it would be reusable but not op.

[DeathKnight.]

Well unless the Watcher is the actual last boss of the game it makes sense for Tonic to be unlocked by killing him. At the moment he looks like he is the end boss of first island / area. The problem i think is that by the time i was able to kill Watcher i have lvl 4 pot , lvl 3 gold recovery , random starter weapons / shields and LOTS of unlocked weapons. I think we need more permanent upgrades , increase the amount of unlocked items required to unlock hp pots and add another 1 time use item that you can unlock before you reach watcher

[Lofll]

Originally posted by A Squirrel:

I think there's a weird balance at play here, and it's interesting. The game presumably does want you to have to go through the hard way, and once you've done it the first time, makes it easier for you to get back to where you were before.

The vampirism ability seems balanced actually - it gives you effectively infinite health as long as you don't take damage very _often_, sort of like having unlimited health flasks. So you can get hit once but then regenerate it over time. I like that as a piece of design, personally.

Problem here is that with the 1.5x, many things that killed you in 2 hits are going to kill you in 1 hit now. And there are a LOT of things that kill you in 2 hits. So for me that's a straight downgrade. At least the x2 damage taken / x2 damage dealt benefits players who are good at avoiding damage. Vamp is useful to just about nobody I think.

[Hunubul]

Originally posted by Markucjo:

WELL if you have some skill point then tonic heals you for A LOT without need of standing still in middle of boss fight, it does takes up a inventory slot tho i would be really pleased if tonic would be changed into item that generates hp from killing enemies (like 1+"skill level" hp for every enemy) so it would be reusable but not op.

Instead of cooldown, you have to kill X enemies before you can use it again.

Like potions in Path of Exile really.

OR: Usable once per map. That's it. So you can heal once for every boss really.

[Epsilon Rose]

I have to agree on vampire. In most of my runs, I've found spike damage to be a bigger problem than chip damage, while the lifesteal afix helps with chip damage and exacerbates spike damage. Why do I want it again?

I've never gotten to use tonics, but I can't immagine bothering with a 1-shot item unless the slot was already empty. I like the idea of tying it to enemies killed. It means you'll only have one use against the boss, the tonic will adjust itself based on the length and difficulty of the level, it forces you to actually engage enemies (rather than sitting around and waiting for a cooldown to finish), and it gives a second vector for improvement beyond healing done, which could help to balance it.

[iYosh]

i haven't downloaded the elemental update but i won't ever use anything that increases my damage taken.
none of these effects are worth the risk. runs don't usually go south due to attrition but due to sudden bursts.

tonic is basically another wall chicken. i would never pick it up and carry it around.
killing enemies before they attack saves me more health in the long run. than a tonic will heal.

[Bazelgeuse]

Vamperism should damage you by X% per second, and heal Y% every hit based on weapon speed (to equal out fast/slow weps). so it makes you want to be more agressive, but if you smart you will get healed more.you mess up it will go against you.

[Epsilon Rose]

Originally posted by ZionOtaku:

Vamperism should damage you by X% per second, and heal Y% every hit based on weapon speed (to equal out fast/slow weps). so it makes you want to be more agressive, but if you smart you will get healed more.you mess up it will go against you.

That could be interesting, but it would have to be togleable. Otherwise you could run into a situation where you simply kill things too quickly and there aren't enough targets to be aggressive against. It also doesn't really help with the afix.

[Bazelgeuse]

Originally posted by Epsilon Rose:

Originally posted by ZionOtaku:

Vamperism should damage you by X% per second, and heal Y% every hit based on weapon speed (to equal out fast/slow weps). so it makes you want to be more agressive, but if you smart you will get healed more.you mess up it will go against you.

That could be interesting, but it would have to be togleable. Otherwise you could run into a situation where you simply kill things too quickly and there aren't enough targets to be aggressive against. It also doesn't really help with the afix.

Would need an internal CD so it can be toggled but not abused to spam the affix.

[Hunubul]

Originally posted by iYosh:

i haven't downloaded the elemental update but i won't ever use anything that increases my damage taken.
none of these effects are worth the risk. runs don't usually go south due to attrition but due to sudden bursts.

If you get more hp it won't bother you.

First time I killed Watcher was with a weapon that dealt 4x damage, but made me recieve 2x damage. I had 8-11 health upgrade (don't remember exactly), the sword was the spiteful sword (when you take damage, you crit for a while), and a shield. I got hit, I just spammed attack, healed most of it back without even trying, and things died. Well that was just for Watcher. Before that I had the 2x damage 2x recieved version, and obviously it got me to Watcher.

Either way it's risk+reward.
But I wouldn't use vampirism either way. I didn't even unlock it, and won't.
Also now damage buffer also increases damage recieved by 30% I believe? It's still awesome.

And Decrease Damage Taken amulets work really good with these.

Originally posted by ZionOtaku:

Vamperism should damage you by X% per second, and heal Y% every hit based on weapon speed (to equal out fast/slow weps). so it makes you want to be more agressive, but if you smart you will get healed more.you mess up it will go against you.

This actually sounds awesome.