Dead Cells gets alot of love despite how bad it's core mechanics are

[BillHicks]

I've played platforming games since the first Mario. The platforming, movement, attacking, and dodging in this game is subpar. I can't count how many times I died because I slipped into a pit because of the terrible movement. Moving up ladders in extremely annoying. The wall climbing is weak. The game has an annoying pause to all attacks which means you cannot cancel any of your moves into another. Dodge is slow and very inconsistent in large fights.
I say all this after reaching 4BC I dunno If I care to get to 5 BC. (Update I got to 5BCS by killing the Giant)


I love this game but it doesn't do the basic things as good as a 16 bit game 30 years ago. Sometimes bringing the retro feel back requires you to understand what made those old games good.

If you look at the patch notes over the years you can see that they tried to cover over these major defects. I hope that Dead Cells 2 redo the gameplay from the ground up.

[No]

Yup, agreed. Reached Astrolab with 5BSC just now, and cracks are really there. I could go on a rant why at least 6-7 things in game ♥♥♥♥♥ up pretty much w/e playstyle or build you are using. Retarded logic of ledge-grabs, when you cant even cancel it with fast roll when beneath highest point, non-existant camera settings (it's so important for camera to lock on teleporter, for example, in bank, LOOK, you've unlocked a teleporter, you see it? Do you see it now? What? You are pushing D to go right but i'm still focusing on teleporter? What's that? Tis 5 BSC and mobs spotted you alrdy and started shooting? Sorry about that, go ♥♥♥♥ yourself), and ugh... things like Malaise level increasing in first 10-15 seconds of bank, which should be considered a lore room with no timer/Malaise growth, since you get the key from the NPC guy and speak to him etc. There A LOT of problems with this game, it's still good, but when you dig deep you find out that inner structure is really mediocre. Which is sad, i still love it, REALLY love it, but when game goes to "hardcore" territory there is too much ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ you just have to cope with. Ah well, still waiting for Castlevania DLC here.

[Kaibah]

Well, the game does have good aspects too, but yeah, there is certain flaws in the gameplay. I think the biggest gripe for me is that there are all these interesting weapons and items, but only 2 slots. Sure, you have the backpack, but it's a complete hassle to switch to the item in there, and is not really worth doing. What's even worse is that some weapons can take up both slots entirely, which makes combat very repetitive. Considering the game is basically fighting enemies 99% of the time, I think you'd have a lot more interesting combat options with some extra slots and better slot switching.

[BillHicks]

Originally posted by Kaibah:

Well, the game does have good aspects too, but yeah, there is certain flaws in the gameplay. I think the biggest gripe for me is that there are all these interesting weapons and items, but only 2 slots. Sure, you have the backpack, but it's a complete hassle to switch to the item in there, and is not really worth doing. What's even worse is that some weapons can take up both slots entirely, which makes combat very repetitive. Considering the game is basically fighting enemies 99% of the time, I think you'd have a lot more interesting combat options with some extra slots and better slot switching.

The draw is the weapon and skill mechanics. They did a great job of bringing mechanics from other games into the game.But it's marred by the basic gameplay movement.

[Kaibah]

Originally posted by BillHicks:

The draw is the weapon and skill mechanics. They did a great job of bringing mechanics from other games into the game.But it's marred by the basic gameplay movement.

So...you're agreeing with me? Because I literally said that all the weapons and skills are interesting. As for the movement, yeah, they could probably improve certain things, but I dunno, maybe they'd probably have to change other things like AI to make it balanced which seems unlikely.

[teacupshoney]

Honestly skill issue

[gbors]

Originally posted by teacupshoney:

Honestly skill issue

The examples the OP brings are valid, although I don't agree with his emphasis on them. I guess it's up to everyone individually how bad these shortcomings affect their enjoyment of the game.

[Phirestar]

Originally posted by BillHicks:

I've played platforming games since the first Mario. The platforming, movement, attacking, and dodging in this game is subpar. I can't count how many times I died because I slipped into a pit because of the terrible movement. Moving up ladders in extremely annoying. The wall climbing is weak. The game has an annoying pause to all attacks which means you cannot cancel any of your moves into another. Dodge is slow and very inconsistent in large fights.
I say all this after reaching 4BC I dunno If I care to get to 5 BC.

I agree, the platforming mechanics aren't the best. I have been screwed over by the ladder mechanics a good few times, including while cursed. I would say that you should know better than to attempt a platforming segment when at very low health, especially as a 4BC player, but then again I am also guilty of that myself. Just remember that one-shot protection is a thing, and being too stingy with your potion charges will, more often than not, get you killed.

To be fair, I think that Dead Cells gets away with it on account of the fact that it's not really focused on the platforming. I imagine that when most people play the game, all of their attention is being paid toward the combat system, which is incredibly well-done and is the meat of the game, after all. In general, people are way more forgiving of a game's shortcomings if the overall experience is enjoyable - see Bethesda (pre-76).

Originally posted by BillHicks:

If you look at the patch notes over the years you can see that they tried to cover over these major defects. I hope that Dead Cells 2 redo the gameplay from the ground up.

Mind linking me to where they did that? I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to about them "covering over" the platforming mechanics' flaws.

Originally posted by Kaibah:

Well, the game does have good aspects too, but yeah, there is certain flaws in the gameplay. I think the biggest gripe for me is that there are all these interesting weapons and items, but only 2 slots. Sure, you have the backpack, but it's a complete hassle to switch to the item in there, and is not really worth doing. What's even worse is that some weapons can take up both slots entirely, which makes combat very repetitive. Considering the game is basically fighting enemies 99% of the time, I think you'd have a lot more interesting combat options with some extra slots and better slot switching.

As a piece of advice on the backpack: if you open the pause screen and hit Y / triangle (or whatever the equivalent on keyboard is), it'll take you straight to the screen where you're able to pick the slot for the item in your backpack. It's much faster and way more convenient than holding the interact button to drop it on the ground and then pick it back up.

The backpack is also definitely worth using. The ability to carry three weapons is actually a substantial boost to gameplay that offers many new options that weren't present in the game previously. For starters, there are the backpack-related mutations (mostly Acrobatipack and Armadillopack). You can carry a second ranged weapon and use Acrobatipack to fire two weapons at once (three with an off-hand), making a Tactics build lethal. And carrying a shield in the backpack alongside Armadillopack means that rolling grants you the benefits of both dodging and parrying, without needing to precisely time a parry. This frees up the second weapon slot for Survival which, apart from allowing you to use shields with two-handed weapons, opens the door to colorless secondary items from other classes. Many non-Survival items become even better on a Survival build, and you don't have to sacrifice defensive options to do it, now.

Then there are other, less immediately obvious uses for the backpack. For instance, if you find a weapon that has the "+1% hp on hit, +100% damage taken" affix, you can put that item into the backpack and it won't apply the 2x damage effect to you. This means that you can bring it along and take it out whenever you want to restore health, then swap back out to your main weapon. Another very interesting use case (albeit it an extremely niche scenario) is swapping out from a Legendary Cursed Sword to a different weapon, using your skills (because the legendary affix on the Cursed Sword locks out all other slots from being used), and then swapping back to get the 4x damage bonus alongside the rest of your build.

And finally, letting the player carry an extra item just makes crafting a build that much easier. If you find a particularly good drop, but it doesn't work with your current set of gear too well, you can backpack it for later and wait until your build is more fit for it. You don't have to take it and hope that you'll run into the right items you need later on, as you'd have to previously.

[Kaibah]

Originally posted by Phirestar:

As a piece of advice on the backpack: if you open the pause screen and hit Y / triangle (or whatever the equivalent on keyboard is), it'll take you straight to the screen where you're able to pick the slot for the item in your backpack. It's much faster and way more convenient than holding the interact button to drop it on the ground and then pick it back up.

Yeah, I already know. Like I mentioned in my previous post, it's bad BECAUSE you have to do all this menu cycling. It wastes time and you have to push the button combinations to do it fast, but if you want to switch constantly for combos or varied attacks, then it is just horrible and ruins the gameplay I think. Would be a lot better if you could quickswap at least.

Originally posted by Phirestar:

The backpack is also definitely worth using. The ability to carry three weapons is actually a substantial boost to gameplay that offers many new options that weren't present in the game previously. For starters, there are the backpack-related mutations (mostly Acrobatipack and Armadillopack). You can carry a second ranged weapon and use Acrobatipack to fire two weapons at once (three with an off-hand), making a Tactics build lethal. And carrying a shield in the backpack alongside Armadillopack means that rolling grants you the benefits of both dodging and parrying, without needing to precisely time a parry. This frees up the second weapon slot for Survival which, apart from allowing you to use shields with two-handed weapons, opens the door to colorless secondary items from other classes. Many non-Survival items become even better on a Survival build, and you don't have to sacrifice defensive options to do it, now.

Then there are other, less immediately obvious uses for the backpack. For instance, if you find a weapon that has the "+1% hp on hit, +100% damage taken" affix, you can put that item into the backpack and it won't apply the 2x damage effect to you. This means that you can bring it along and take it out whenever you want to restore health, then swap back out to your main weapon. Another very interesting use case (albeit it an extremely niche scenario) is swapping out from a Legendary Cursed Sword to a different weapon, using your skills (because the legendary affix on the Cursed Sword locks out all other slots from being used), and then swapping back to get the 4x damage bonus alongside the rest of your build.

And finally, letting the player carry an extra item just makes crafting a build that much easier. If you find a particularly good drop, but it doesn't work with your current set of gear too well, you can backpack it for later and wait until your build is more fit for it. You don't have to take it and hope that you'll run into the right items you need later on, as you'd have to previously.

I've unlocked some of those mutations you mentioned actually, and while they do have interesting interactions as you say, personally, I have more fun just playing around with the various weapons. But because of the very strict slot limitations and certain imbalances, I think that ruins the gameplay. Let me give you an example. The Hard Light Sword takes up two weapon slots and is not really anything to write home about from what I've seen. Maybe there is some super magical mutation I don't know about, but the point is why bother when even a beginning weapon like Frost Blast give more utility (freezing enemies) AND allows you to use something else like the Pure Nail which is a pretty cool weapon that has multiple animations (one of my favourites actually). You have more variety in attacks which can include another tool in your backpack, but is also frustrating because of the switching issue mentioned before.

This extends even to builds as well. Maybe you want to play a more mage type character, except you can't even really equip many "spells" and you're just basically spamming the same two over and over. Hell, even the bosses have more varied attack patterns (see the Queen for example). I guess that is my biggest issue: attack variety. Maybe they could make a mutation that lets you push a button and switch entire slots to another quickbar, but having certain negatives as well. That would be amazing and wouldn't even involve changing the core fundamentals of the game.

[Pastapockets]

My main issue with the game is damage caps ruining most survival weapons because they end up worthless for bosses.

[Phirestar]

Originally posted by Pastapockets:

My main issue with the game is damage caps ruining most survival weapons because they end up worthless for bosses.

I agree. This has especially been an issue for some of the newer items, which have been designed to lean even harder into that theme of "slow, but heavy-hitting". A weapon like the Punishment, in particular, is a non-viable weapon when it's too slow for biomes and can only hit for a small portion of its maximum damage potential against a boss. The same could be said of the Wrecking Ball.

This is why I have suggested to change the boss damage caps to function differently. (I don't think that they should be removed entirely, partly because I'm sure Motion Twin aren't interested in doing that, and partly because I don't think that being able to potentially one-shot a boss should be allowed.)

Instead of limiting it to a percentage of the boss' total health, I think that a better choice would be to instead have a health cap that's based on phase transitions, where you can do as much damage as your weapons allow until you reach the health threshold that trigger the boss to go into its next phase - Conjunctivius' tentacle phase; Concierge's leap attacks; elite enemy spawns in HotK - and then the attacks get capped.

It's either that, or they just have to overhaul Survival to be faster and not create weapon designs like the ones I mentioned before. And the latter seems to be the direction they usually go with it, given the amount of times a weapon has been buffed by increasing its speed. Anyone here remember when Valmont's Whip was a Survival item, before they changed it to have a far shorter recovery time, allowing you to now spam it? Or when the Beheaded would actually draw the arrow back on the Marksman's Bow, rather than just firing it instantaneously? And even non-Survival items get this treatment, sometimes. Gilded Yumi was originally supposed to be a slower bow with the advantage of firing a very powerful arrow that push back groups of enemies? Well it still does that knockback, but now it fires faster, too.

[Jinshushei]

I agree. This game is wildly praised and it's not a bad game, but it's also not a good game. The Castlevania trailer made me buy but I have regrets because I'm not really having fun after 6 hours of playing...it's just ehhh

[Myst3ry X]

Doesn't necessarily kill the game though, the platforming is few and far between.

[BillHicks]

Originally posted by Myst3ry:

Doesn't necessarily kill the game though, the platforming is few and far between.

Not at all. The game is so fun despite it's flaws. I just don't want deserved praise it's getting to overshadow the problems that exist.

[LazyJoeBeard]

I really do love this game even if some weapons are... kind of terrible feeling to use. I was under the assumption that I was just using them wrong. I do have some friends who dislike the game and I can not argue with the issues that they talk about. But all in all I enjoy playing it quite a bit.

[Lu2]

considering game had lot of random generated layouts for stages i found it very cleverly designed for expedition adventure runs.

i dont generaly like rogue random generated games but this game hits good spot


new getsufumaden is very similar but much worse level layouts,much less content
outstanding bossfights and much deeper combat