What is the point in healing mutations that take literally 1,000 swings to heal 1%.

[Damnion]

Even worse they have conditions just to get the healing to kick in, and they don't even tell you the numbers, you have to look it up on the wiki to find out that just taking the damage mutations would allow you to avoid more damage than the healing mutations would heal ever. Yeah it scales up, but not far enough for it to be useful even if you take it late game.

[Soup]

Originally posted by Damnion:

just taking the damage mutations would allow you to avoid more damage than the healing mutations would heal ever.

Thats kinda the point, considering the direction the game is going mixed with where it's coming from; healing mutations arent meant to be a substitute for not taking damage, especially in later boss cells since everything late game can easily 1 shot or stunlock combo you to death so healing regardless of the amount would be useless anyway. The exception is if youre playing survival builds where you can tank everything since survival is the only stat allowed to have health or defense apparently, but EE seems to be trying to kill off viability for anything that isnt brutality, and since they just took the only good health/defense related mutations brutality had and gave them to guess what color, the main thing is to just not get hit so you wont need the healing mutations.

Which mutations are you talking about exactly? From what I can infer, "literally 1k swings to heal 1%" is necromancy, which takes nowhere near "literally 1k swings to heal 1%", only 5 enemy kills and thats with no scrolls put into survival, and the ones with conditions that dont tell you how much they heal I assume to be frenzy and adrenaline, which I do think both suck cause their proc is so niche that the health you recover is negligible, as you mentioned.

Edit: just checked the wiki, and it's obvious to me now that youre talking about just frenzy and adrenaline. I knew the amount of health they recovered was low, but holy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hell I didnt realize it was THAT low (.0012% base, .008% cap at 37 brutality, and .0015% base, .015% cap at 30 brutality respectively) cause I never used them.

Okay yeah, why do these even exist?

[FlintX]

Seems like it was nerfed hard by the time it came out then. When Adrenalin first came out I could complete heal half a HP bar with just some rolls and attacks on Concierge boss fight. It on that boss fight was kinda a safe heaven for recovering HP if you had did a few bad moves at the start of the run.

[kermat_]

Frenzy and Adrenalin have such low percentages because they work on a per hit basis rather than per kill.
They used to be pretty viable pre-1.9 and especially scaled well by endgame (Castle and onwards) but they were nerfed pretty hard in 1.9. Here's the patch note:

Fixed Adrenalin and Frenzy calculations to only scale with the base damage of an attack (before any scaling or damage buff, except critical hits, is taken into account). We were looking into nerfing these mutations when we found out that they weren't working as expected. Update 19.5

Nowadays, if you manage to get colorless scythes drop while playing brutality definitely try Frenzy (and maybe Adrenalin) for funzies. They're bugged where you can occasionally get a near-full heal from critting.

[Uncle Fester]

Originally posted by Soup:

Originally posted by Damnion:

Edit: just checked the wiki, and it's obvious to me now that youre talking about just frenzy and adrenaline. I knew the amount of health they recovered was low, but holy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hell I didnt realize it was THAT low (.0012% base, .008% cap at 37 brutality, and .0015% base, .015% cap at 30 brutality respectively) cause I never used them.

Okay yeah, why do these even exist?

Just my thoughts, why would anyone waste one of the three avaible mutation slots with this kind of crap, same with Initiative, Scheme can be triggered more than once per enemy and does way more damage.

[Xenostrife5]

Originally posted by Uncle Fester:

Originally posted by Soup:

Just my thoughts, why would anyone waste one of the three avaible mutation slots with this kind of crap, same with Initiative, Scheme can be triggered more than once per enemy and does way more damage.

Adrenalin and Frenzy's values make it so you actually do get some decent mileage out of them in the endgame since it's important to keep in mind the damage you'll be doing later on. I will say that I do wish the values of Adrenalin were buffed since it's just not that viable at the moment. As for Initiative I actually do think that it's better than Scheme since it's a lot more reliable for biomes but honestly I think both of them need a buff.

[SaiColors]

These are completely garbage now.

I can't see the point picking these mutations in a run.

If you need healing just pick Gastronomy, What Doesn't Kill Me, Alienation, even you're not playing survival build.

[Xenostrife5]

Originally posted by sidecolors:

These are completely garbage now.

I can't see the point picking these mutations in a run.

If you need healing just pick Gastronomy, What Doesn't Kill Me, Alienation, even you're not playing survival build.

Nope.
Gastronomy's busted but as Frenzy and Adrenalin are based off of attack damage you can get great mileage out of them especially in the endgame. Necromancy isn't as potent off-color as Frenzy is on Brutality, and if you're good with dodging then Adrenalin is a free 1-2% HP per roll. Pretty worth it to me.

[OverRide]

Originally posted by Soup:

Edit: just checked the wiki, and it's obvious to me now that youre talking about just frenzy and adrenaline. I knew the amount of health they recovered was low, but holy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hell I didnt realize it was THAT low (.0012% base, .008% cap at 37 brutality, and .0015% base, .015% cap at 30 brutality respectively) cause I never used them.

Okay yeah, why do these even exist?

It's per attack damage point as stated. Obviously you're not dealing 1 point of damage through entire game.

[Leviathan]

The times I've used Frenzy I haven't seen anything which works close to the 1% you get from some weapons (at the price of double damage taken). If you're hitting 100000 per melee attack with 37 brutality you recover 100000*0.008/100=8 hp per attack.

You need to have only 800 hp at that point for it to be 1%... but at that point you'll surely have A LOT more than that. With 35/5/6 which was my last successful 5bc run I literally had over 22000 hp, so a recovery of 8hp is literally 0.036% of that.

I never use stuff like

[chipperguy]

Originally posted by Leviathan:

The times I've used Frenzy I haven't seen anything which works close to the 1% you get from some weapons (at the price of double damage taken). If you're hitting 100000 per melee attack with 37 brutality you recover 100000*0.008/100=8 hp per attack.

You need to have only 800 hp at that point for it to be 1%... but at that point you'll surely have A LOT more than that. With 35/5/6 which was my last successful 5bc run I literally had over 22000 hp, so a recovery of 8hp is literally 0.036% of that.

I never use stuff like

That’s not how it works. The healing is a percentage per damage point.

[Soup]

Originally posted by Leviathan:

The times I've used Frenzy I haven't seen anything which works close to the 1% you get from some weapons (at the price of double damage taken). If you're hitting 100000 per melee attack with 37 brutality you recover 100000*0.008/100=8 hp per attack.

You need to have only 800 hp at that point for it to be 1%... but at that point you'll surely have A LOT more than that. With 35/5/6 which was my last successful 5bc run I literally had over 22000 hp, so a recovery of 8hp is literally 0.036% of that.

I never use stuff like

I was gonna say, could someone actually do the testing and math to prove these are as useless as they seem & feel?

Plus most standard enemies only take 1-3 hits with most melee weapons, 7 at most (random guess) by the point some people are saying these mutations become "useful", and they have niche conditional procs. Granted it only heals up to 50% of hp now, but necromancy, even when offcolor, still seems like a damn sight better with .2% of max hp per kill at 1 survival.

I absolutely cannot be ♥♥♥♥♥♥ to do the testing for values for the math of adrenaline and frenzy's healing rates, so Ill leave that to someone else and just say that randomly guessing areas have an average of around 100 enemies, necromancy at only 1 survival would still heal 20% of total max hp per area, and then you also have all food drops since the new malaise meta from what Ive read of other people's strategies is to just let it max out and roll with the punches since 10 malaise doesnt make a significant enough impact in proportion to 1-3 malaise, so the infection from food doesnt matter, it's just free health.

I also dont exactly find risking entire chunks of my health and possibly my entire run on trying to regain tiny slivers of my health with adrenaline to be an intelligent idea, and the way I see it, neither it nor frenzy at their best have anywhere near the viability that necromancy has at its weakest because of the vast difference in hp healed and the fact that necromancy is viable throughout a whole run, unlike frenzy & adrenaline only being "good" towards the endgame as the people defending them are saying. And thats all not to mention that necromancy also heals 4 bars of malaise on boss kills, though not that that is all that important considering the new malaise meta as I mentioned previously.

To each their own, I guess

[Leviathan]

Originally posted by chipperguy:

Originally posted by Leviathan:

The times I've used Frenzy I haven't seen anything which works close to the 1% you get from some weapons (at the price of double damage taken). If you're hitting 100000 per melee attack with 37 brutality you recover 100000*0.008/100=8 hp per attack.

You need to have only 800 hp at that point for it to be 1%... but at that point you'll surely have A LOT more than that. With 35/5/6 which was my last successful 5bc run I literally had over 22000 hp, so a recovery of 8hp is literally 0.036% of that.

That’s not how it works. The healing is a percentage per damage point.

What I said was taking that into account, unless "per damage point" means something different from what it sounds to me.

Let me see. There are two options in my mind. Let c be the percentage of recovery given by frenzy.

First: When you cause melee damage, you recover c of your max HP per damage point. This means that total healing is computed as H=c*maxHP*Damage.

Second: When you cause melee damage, you recover c of the damage caused.

First is a little weird to me. If you cause 100000 melee damage with 37 brutality then healing is H=0.008*maxHP*100000/100=8*maxHP which would be eight times full recovery.

Second is too low: You recover 0.008*100000/100=8 health.

[chipperguy]

All of you keep going on and on about this ♥♥♥♥ but none of you actually understand how either of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ mutations work. The healing for both Adrenalin and frenzy is PER DAMAGE POINT. This means that for every single point of melee damage you dish out while they’re active, it’s healing an additive percentage of your total health from each singular piece of healing. It’s not healing 0.00126% of your hp per hit, it’s healing 0.00126% times the base number of damage points you’re dealing with each and every attack. If the base damage per hit of your weapon is 75, Frenzy is healing nearly 0.1% of your hp on every single hit you deal, and that’s only with no extra points in brutality. From there it only gets higher. Adrenalin is even higher healing percentages and procing the "perfect dodge" is even more lenient than a shield parry.

[Leviathan]

Ok, it works with the base damage then. If that's the case I'll have to see how it gets late game.

Originally posted by chipperguy:

It’s not healing 0.00126% of your hp per hit,

Yeah, but I never said it did. What I didn't know if the damage that counts is the base damage, or the actual damage, or if the healing percentage is taken from max HP or from the damage done.

[kermat_]

I've done some testing with Frenzy and I can't figure out how the calculation works. My best guess is that it doesn't work as its description states but on top of that it's also bugged in some way.
Will upload footage soon in the hopes that someone else can help me understand what's going on.