best mutators

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[Peelsepuuppi]

FlintX の投稿を引用：

Dude, you were talking about the old Necromancy mutation and made a question asking if things were balanced before why did they changed the mutations? Which I clearly aswered one of the reasons why by the way.

And now you just proceed to ignore your own question and talk about the new mutations. Which in fact are way more versatile now than the old ones, as I already have stated in the first answer of this topic.

I think you should decide which subject you want to talk about. You seem a little bit confused.

Fine I was asking leading questions, but you aren't biting so I'll just say what I wanted to from the start. The mutations aren't balanced. there are clearly some that are far more effective than others. They get nerfed because people use them much more in comparison to others? Why do they use them more because some are more effective than others.

The devs rework some things but some changes are clear nerfs to options that are way too popular in comparison. Why are they more popular? Because they are more effective. It's delusional to think that anyone could reach perfect balance with so many options.

Even when you take build variety into considerations all options aren't equal. All things being viable is not the same as all things being equal. I buy the claim that all options are viable, but equal? Hell no. Necromancy was straight up way too popular for survival builds so it got nerfed with the 50% health cap.

[FlintX]

ToveriJuri の投稿を引用：

FlintX の投稿を引用：

Dude, you were talking about the old Necromancy mutation and made a question asking if things were balanced before why did they changed the mutations? Which I clearly aswered one of the reasons why by the way.

And now you just proceed to ignore your own question and talk about the new mutations. Which in fact are way more versatile now than the old ones, as I already have stated in the first answer of this topic.

I think you should decide which subject you want to talk about. You seem a little bit confused.

Fine I was asking leading questions, but you aren't biting so I'll just say what I wanted to from the start. The mutations aren't balanced. there are clearly some that are far more effective than others. They get nerfed because people use them much more in comparison to others? Why do they use them more because some are more effective than others.

The devs rework some things but some changes are clear nerfs to options that are way too popular in comparison. Why are they more popular? Because they are more effective. It's delusional to think that anyone could reach perfect balance with so many options.

Even when you take build variety into considerations all options aren't equal. All things being viable is not the same as all things being equal. I buy the claim that all options are viable, but equal? Hell no. Necromancy was straight up way too popular for survival builds so it got nerfed with the 50% health cap.

By your logic then there was just one mutation that was always been picked. And now there will be 3, if you count Necromancy + Frenzy + Adrenalin. If it was all about the health regen. Or maybe it will just be replaced by Adrenalin alone as a must have. I doubt so.

This is not how things works dude. Those are mutations from 2 different categories, Brutality and Survival. One will no simple pick one mutation if their gear don't resonate with it or if it doesn't scale with it. At least it is the common sense. Tactics builders probably will often think that Adrenalin and Frenzy are useless because most of them only uses ranged weapons and turrets, and maybe a shield. So yes, they would rather stick with Necromancy plus another Survival mutation for health regen, and scale the scrolls with them. While Brutality builders will find Adrenalin or Frenzy interesting choices to do the same, and obviously could stack it with Necromancy as well, besides having not much point in doing so since they would already have so sort of regen.

I'm pretty sure Necromancy got nerfed because the Survival tree already had some other mutations that relies in health recovery, not because it was "OP". And Brutality tree got the new ones as some sort of help for having melee players to risk themselves more often to deal damage. And Tactics tree doesn't have a heal mutation because in theory they don't have to expose themselves too often to danger, and instead they get other utility mutations. This is balance and versality right there.

[mna99]

Threads like this, and its answer, are really disappointing. "All of them" is a useless non-answer. There are some mutations people will pick more-often than others due to obvious benefits. For example, I doubt many people use Gastronomy for the damage increase since you can't recycle food during a boss fight. I've been tempted to use it, but where I need the extra damage is against bosses . . . not rank-and-file enemies. Getting double healing is kinda nice, but the game encourages you not to get hit at all, so from that angle, I don't see it as being all that good either (and again, you can't eat food during a boss fight so how does it really help you?).

Based on what I've seen people say about the higher BC levels, the ones that really jump out at me as being most-useful are:

Adrenalin*
Vengeance (might be useless at higher BC levels)
Support
Tranquility
MAYBE Scheme (Scheme requires you to have low-cooldown skills)
Maybe Crow's Foot, though aren't bosses generally immune to slow? So only for the damage.
Blind Faith
Counterattack
What Doesn't Kill Me*
Extended Healing*
Spite
Frostbite (though useless for anything immune to slow, which I think is the case for bosses)
Heart of Ice
Instinct of the Master of Arms
Ammo (not really needed if you have something else to knock arrows loose)
Emergency Triage
Disengagement, but don't count on triggering it more than once

*Asterisked mutations are marked as such under the assumption that not everyone thinks self-healing is a worthy use of time at higher BC levels. Extended Healing is still potentially useful due to the damage boost, and combined with Emergency Triage, it's actually quite accessible.

Personally I would skip anything that has little-to-no value against bosses.

[FlintX]

Seems like what you guys are really looking for is not balance then, it is that everything works pretty much the same. Maybe we should get one mutation that have all the other mutation effects on itself as well, so you guys won't have troubling deciding which one to use.

[mna99]

FlintX の投稿を引用：

Seems like what you guys are really looking for is not balance then, it is that everything works pretty much the same. Maybe we should get one mutation that have all the other mutation effects on itself as well, so you guys won't have troubling deciding which one to use.

The devs are going to give us whatever it is they want. It's our job to pick out the best stuff. It's that simple.

So why not help people pick out the best stuff if they ask?

[Peelsepuuppi]

FlintX の投稿を引用：

ToveriJuri の投稿を引用：

Fine I was asking leading questions, but you aren't biting so I'll just say what I wanted to from the start. The mutations aren't balanced. there are clearly some that are far more effective than others. They get nerfed because people use them much more in comparison to others? Why do they use them more because some are more effective than others.

The devs rework some things but some changes are clear nerfs to options that are way too popular in comparison. Why are they more popular? Because they are more effective. It's delusional to think that anyone could reach perfect balance with so many options.

Even when you take build variety into considerations all options aren't equal. All things being viable is not the same as all things being equal. I buy the claim that all options are viable, but equal? Hell no. Necromancy was straight up way too popular for survival builds so it got nerfed with the 50% health cap.

By your logic then there was just one mutation that was always been picked. And now there will be 3, if you count Necromancy + Frenzy + Adrenalin. If it was all about the health regen. Or maybe it will just be replaced by Adrenalin alone as a must have. I doubt so.

This is not how things works dude. Those are mutations from 2 different categories, Brutality and Survival. One will no simple pick one mutation if their gear don't resonate with it or if it doesn't scale with it. At least it is the common sense. Tactics builders probably will often think that Adrenalin and Frenzy are useless because most of them only uses ranged weapons and turrets, and maybe a shield. So yes, they would rather stick with Necromancy plus another Survival mutation for health regen, and scale the scrolls with them. While Brutality builders will find Adrenalin or Frenzy interesting choices to do the same, and obviously could stack it with Necromancy as well, besides having not much point in doing so since they would already have so sort of regen.

I'm pretty sure Necromancy got nerfed because the Survival tree already had some other mutations that relies in health recovery, not because it was "OP". And Brutality tree got the new ones as some sort of help for having melee players to risk themselves more often to deal damage. And Tactics tree doesn't have a heal mutation because in theory they don't have to expose themselves too often to danger, and instead they get other utility mutations. This is balance and versality right there.

Did I say people only use one mutation ever? Did I not acknowledge that build variety plays into it. People don't just pick necromancy all the time. But if they go survival they will be picking Necromancy more often than the other survival perks. The game allows you to swap mutations too. Necromancy does barely anything in the true final boss fight for which one of the most favored mutations is Dead Inside.

And I also asked you earleri what use is the Ammo perk? The weapons that could truly benefit from it are the exceptions that aren't affected by it. The weapons that are affected by it really don't need it.

It's ludicrous to claim that all mutations are balanced. Even when you consider different playstyles those playstyles have their own optimal mutations. Wide variety of mutations are good, but there are some that are way more popular than others and there are others that are barely ever used In any build.

[Peelsepuuppi]

FlintX の投稿を引用：

Seems like what you guys are really looking for is not balance then, it is that everything works pretty much the same. Maybe we should get one mutation that have all the other mutation effects on itself as well, so you guys won't have troubling deciding which one to use.

Oh shut the hell up. No one here is "seeking" anything. It's matter of fact that the mutations are not perfectly balanced it's nearly impossible to keep perfect balance with so many options. But you have your head so far up in your own ass that you've figured our arguments in your own head before we've said anything. No one here is claiming that there are some god mutations that everyone uses all the time in every single build, but for some reason that's the angle you are arguing against.

How many times does it have to be said to you that there are indeed many playstyles and viable builds making many of the mutations good, but there are simply mutations that shine over others in those playstyles. Which mutation is best depends on your build and your playstyle, but that doesn't mean every single mutations is equal.

[FlintX]

I also can list all the mutations I pick more often, the ones I use in my melee builds, the ones I use to rush time/killing spree doors, the ones I use when I will try to complete a run in high BC difficulties or to unlock a next one, and also explain why I did pick them. It still doesn't mean they are "best".

I mean, how often do you guys pick Melee, Scheme, Predator, Heart of Ice, Instinct of the Master of arms and Velocity?

[mna99]

FlintX の投稿を引用：

I mean, how often do you guys pick Melee, Scheme, Predator, Heart of Ice, Instinct of the Master of arms and Velocity?

I love Heart of Ice. It's incredibly useful with Wolf Trap (and Ice Blast), and theoretically could let you proc Scheme non-stop if used with Swarm (I haven't tried that yet, but someday . . . ). Instinct of the Master of Arms is potentially useful with any crit-based weapon, and I have used it with the Nutcracker before. And, hey, Wolf Trap = non-stop Nutcracker crits. You can root just about anything. Hilarity ensues.

[Peelsepuuppi]

FlintX の投稿を引用：

I also can list all the mutations I pick more often, the ones I use in my melee builds, the ones I use to rush time/killing spree doors, the ones I use when I will try to complete a run in high BC difficulties or to unlock a next one, and also explain why I did pick them. It still doesn't mean they are "best".

I mean, how often do you guys pick Melee, Scheme, Predator, Heart of Ice, Instinct of the Master of arms and Velocity?

Heart of Ice and Instinct are part of the one of the most broken builds in the game. Something that allows you to basically no skill through the entirety of dead cells up to the very end of 5BC.

You don't have to worry about taking damage you don't have to worry about malaise you don't even have to worry about reacting to enemy attacks.

Heart of Ice in general is pretty much a must have if you plan going with a suvrival slowdown/Ice build.

[mna99]

ToveriJuri の投稿を引用：

Heart of Ice and Instinct are part of the one of the most broken builds in the game. Something that allows you to basically no skill through the entirety of dead cells up to the very end of 5BC.

You don't have to worry about taking damage you don't have to worry about malaise you don't even have to worry about reacting to enemy attacks.

Heart of Ice in general is pretty much a must have if you plan going with a suvrival slowdown/Ice build.

What, do you use it with Tonic or something?

[Peelsepuuppi]

mna99 の投稿を引用：

ToveriJuri の投稿を引用：

Heart of Ice and Instinct are part of the one of the most broken builds in the game. Something that allows you to basically no skill through the entirety of dead cells up to the very end of 5BC.

You don't have to worry about taking damage you don't have to worry about malaise you don't even have to worry about reacting to enemy attacks.

Heart of Ice in general is pretty much a must have if you plan going with a suvrival slowdown/Ice build.

What, do you use it with Tonic or something?

Yeah tonic.

Pretty much Ice Shards + Giantkiller mapped on the same attack button with ice shards on the first slot. For Skills Oil Grenade + Tonic. Heart of Ice + Instinct of the Master of Arms for mutations.

This way every swing of Giantkiller will also give you Ice shards. Oil Grenade triggers crits for Ice Shards and that triggers instinct cooldown. Ice shard doing constant slowdown mean you pretty much get constant cooldown reduction from Heart of Ice too. Ice Shards also picks ups some of the slack in damage for Giantkiller in Biomes. Constant Slowdown on enemies also means you rarely have to react to their attacks and they barely even get a chance to strike at you.

With that set up you pretty much have an almost constant uptime for tonic. If you find a tonic with 100% uptime you pretty effectively have constant tonic on you and malaise might as well not exist in the game, but that's not necessary the build is strong enough without it.

Some people named that the Exodia build, because it requires a full set of specific gear, but once you have them it pretty much breaks the game on every difficulty including 5BC.

If anything is getting nerfed next it's either ice Shards or Heart of Ice or their synergy.

[mna99]

I just tried oil grenade + ice shards + Instinct. Didn't work! For some reason, Instinct of the Master of Arms won't trigger of Ice Shards crits anymore? When did they patch that in? Disappointed, to say the least.

[Peelsepuuppi]

mna99 の投稿を引用：

I just tried oil grenade + ice shards + Instinct. Didn't work! For some reason, Instinct of the Master of Arms won't trigger of Ice Shards crits anymore? When did they patch that in? Disappointed, to say the least.

Unless it was nerfed like couple days ago it should still work Pretty sure it works on bosses (however the could have been giantkiller crits I was noticing)

In any case Heart of Ice is the true star of that build Ice shard gives constant slowdown on every enemy you attack and Heart of Ice gives massive cooldown on those. Instict is just there to strengthen the effect and to give cooldowns for bosses. Are you sure you are not igniting the oil because that reduces the length of the oiled status effect.

The build is called "exodia" because you need every part of it for it to work as intended:

Oil provides crits for ice shards
Ice shards provide cooldown from heart of ice and Instict (at least they should)
Giantkiller provides crits massive damage and cooldowns in boss fights
Ice shards covers up the weaknesses of Giantkiller in Biomes.
Tonic keeps you safe on BC4+

[mna99]

I had every piece except Giantkiller. It was possible to refresh Tonic/Oil Grenade using the starter sword and Heart of Ice after spamming Ice Shards.

edit: re-examining it, it looks like it DOES work. It's just more subtle than I thought. Ice Shards does seem to be triggering Instinct of the Master of Arms, but it doesn't seem to trigger Heart of Ice. I subbed in Vorpan and it worked pretty well for biomes. Easy to trigger crits, but of course it doesn't scale with Survival so . . . bleh.