0-3 boss cells strategy(stat scrolls is a lie)

[sbm311]

I must say, before arguing try it yourself. Due to the mechanics of increasing the damage and health of enemies with gathering stat scrolls appears a strange thing. At a certain moment obtained health/damage taken ratio becomes negative. This is especially noticeable if you completely ignore survival stat - enemies inflict very high damage and the more scrolls you take the worse it becomes. I talked about this earlier not knowing the reasons for high incoming damage, as it turned out to be the fault of this aspect of the game.

So stop collecting scrolls after 8 brutality, 7 tactics and 13 survival. You will sacrifice some amount of your attack power, but incoming damage will be very, very low. As result on 2 boss cells, 13K health with 75% resistance and HotK deal about 500 damage -> tickle :) Even without resistance 2K per hit not so much, as happens in other cases(5K+ with 60% resistance per hit really hurts).

You actually punish yourself in relative amount of health by grabbing scrolls at some point. So I consider binding stat scrolls to enemies heath/damage not the best idea, as well as damage cap on bosses(even more worsens this situation).

With this strategy I had one of the easiest runs.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1408030267
Slightly exceeded stats due to bonuses from items.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1408030340
Dealing damage loss is not critical, run did not take long(clear whole levels)

Of course this strategy does not work for 4 boss cells with an infection mechanic, but it will be very useful for those who miss a lot of punches.

[ChillAxin]

So enemies scaling with the number of scrolls you have is a thing, not just a myth? TFW running pure Tactics...

[elipod]

I'm still greedy for damage, especially on 4 cells, but I did loose some runs to huge HOTK punches, when I had close to 30 in main damage stat.
Enemy stat scaling becomes apparent, when you have weapon that oneshots certain enemy type, and stops doing so, after you picked some scrolls that did not affect that weapon's damage.

[rpmaia]

This thread was the answer to some doubts I've been having recently. Quite clearly, there's a downside to scroll collecting, but I was never able to put it down as you 8-7-13.

Gonna try your strategy and post results here.

Funny thing is: why have scrolls at all? And the cursed chests, that most people would want because of the precious scroll, or the challenge areas?

[ChillAxin]

I just tried a run with 8-7-15 and 55% dmg reduction and reached HOTK at one-cell difficulty. I've never seen numbers as low as what it was against him, my healthpool barely twitched as he shaved off maybe 800 dmg per strike when I had 11K overall.

For comparisons sake taking all the scrolls I could, including timed doors, got me to about 8-26-8. At that point, despite it being on one-cell difficulty, HOTK was doing 4K dmg per swing when I was at 35% dmg reduction.

It definitely is a thing that scaling has an effect on their damage, but Survival-scaling weapons are slow and the damage I was doing wasn't very good even when I had two turrets.

11/10 would run again!

[Demonmax]

Well, I'll try this, but I already can see it working :)

I personally don't like the formula of enemies getting stronger as you collect scrolls, and still hope MTwin revisit this system before launch.

[sbm311]

Originally posted by {St} Waylllop:

I personally don't like the formula of enemies getting stronger as you collect scrolls, and still hope MTwin revisit this system before launch.

Also hope for removing this and damage cap on bosses. Now it looks like: you become too strong, so why not multiply all your efforts by zero :)

Got several runs with different builds and now I do not see any sense to collect each stat scroll, timed door or cursed chest. The lack of damage is easily solved by some kind of synergy or legendary weapon. I'd be stuck with this strategy if it were not 4 boss cell mode with the infection.

[rpmaia]

Gonna try that no-scrolls run. But I feel kind of cheated with that option, the scroll colleting was always such an integral part of the game, and now it seems it was for nothing.

That's maybe the most important issue for the devs to solve before the official release

[sbm311]

Originally posted by rpmaia:

But I feel kind of cheated with that option, the scroll colleting was always such an integral part of the game, and now it seems it was for nothing.

Well, collecting all scrolls still gives more damage which is capped on bosses :(
So no cheating -> adapt :) Will see what devs do with that.

Both enemy stat scales and boss damage caps alone maybe would not cause such problems: more health risk - more damage. But in pair it turns out not very good for glass cannon builds, cause you can slower and much easier go throw the game without any risks like cursed chests, speedrunning.

Another problem with boss damage caps: having even a huge damage without any DOT, you will
still deal little damage.

[TemmieNeko]

Originally posted by sbm311:

I must say, before arguing try it yourself. Due to the mechanics of increasing the damage and health of enemies with gathering stat scrolls appears a strange thing. At a certain moment obtained health/damage taken ratio becomes negative. This is especially noticeable if you completely ignore survival stat - enemies inflict very high damage and the more scrolls you take the worse it becomes. I talked about this earlier not knowing the reasons for high incoming damage, as it turned out to be the fault of this aspect of the game.

So stop collecting scrolls after 8 brutality, 7 tactics and 13 survival. You will sacrifice some amount of your attack power, but incoming damage will be very, very low. As result on 2 boss cells, 13K health with 75% resistance and HotK deal about 500 damage -> tickle :) Even without resistance 2K per hit not so much, as happens in other cases(5K+ with 60% resistance per hit really hurts).

You actually punish yourself in relative amount of health by grabbing scrolls at some point. So I consider binding stat scrolls to enemies heath/damage not the best idea, as well as damage cap on bosses(even more worsens this situation).

With this strategy I had one of the easiest runs.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1408030267
Slightly exceeded stats due to bonuses from items.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1408030340
Dealing damage loss is not critical, run did not take long(clear whole levels)

Of course this strategy does not work for 4 boss cells with an infection mechanic, but it will be very useful for those who miss a lot of punches.

yeah i tested this out rather quickly by just setting all my scroll stats to 50,( and hp to 100,000) the last boss ends up doing 75,000 damage per attack.
this is somehting i complained about when brutality became a thing, the extra stats are almost pointless, since everythign scales with you -0 except if you dont choose brutality, or survival - you get plugged in the butt with outrageous damage totals :)

try doing a run without picking up scrolls, that;s what i have been doing ( i knwo it's hard to resist)
but ive beaten nightmare with this tactic - you're just not very strong. rely on upgraded gear, and ignore scrols = winning :3


i think the damage scaling might be directly tied to your HP rather than your scrolls. ill fiddle with the stats to see.
after dying countless times to the king doing my regualr, search for every scroll - run, i looked into why the damage was so wildly inaccurate compared tpo previous runs.
i think boss cells activated also factors into how much damage scaling occurs, as well.

[Hommit]

>So stop collecting scrolls after 8 brutality, 7 tactics and 13 survival
Why exactly this numbers?

[sbm311]

Originally posted by Hommit:

>So stop collecting scrolls after 8 brutality, 7 tactics and 13 survival
Why exactly this numbers?

Enemies receive +7% and +8% damage and health(do not remember which exactly) with each picked up scroll, so that after these stat numbers you get less health than enemies damage growth. Thus, further grab scrolls will continue to increase your damage on monsters, but at the same time will increase the damage on you.

[Moonbane]

interesting. Will have to try that out. Clearly seems like an oversight.

[TemmieNeko]

Originally posted by sbm311:

Originally posted by Hommit:

>So stop collecting scrolls after 8 brutality, 7 tactics and 13 survival
Why exactly this numbers?

Enemies receive +7% and +8% damage and health(do not remember which exactly) with each picked up scroll, so that after these stat numbers you get less health than enemies damage growth. Thus, further grab scrolls will continue to increase your damage on monsters, but at the same time will increase the damage on you.

itjust goes by the amount of HP you have, which is why such odd-ball numbers for you, it depends what order you took them, how much the HP benefit deteriorated over multiple scrolls, and if you take the 30% HP mutation or not.
i can make a video to showcase this by modifying only my hp totals, with no scrolls.
also keep in mind some weps and items have scrolls built-in, especilly once you get L ranks.

[Moonbane]

so what would be a good order to take scrolls?

[TemmieNeko]

Originally posted by Nefer:

so what would be a good order to take scrolls?

take all brutality, stick with red weps and items.
take all purple, stick to those weps and items
dont ever take green XD