To Parry in Dead Cells

[Jägermeister]

So I have been playing with Parry Builds for a while, mostly with the Spiked Shield, Blind Faith, What Doesn't Kill Me and Spite.
I think the mechanics for parries are very good, lots of fun and insanely satisfying.

But there're two suggestions from me regarding the reward and difficulty of parries.

First the difficulty. See, after the first few runs specifying the parry, it feels quite satisfying as you learn the timing easily but after 20+ runs you notice that the time frame available to successfull parry your enemy is actually HUGE and you're not that good as you thought you were. The stop-motion on parries makes it easier parrying multiple opponents rapidly, but I like that.
So I think a shorter, more precise time frame to parry enemies attacks would promote the psychological satisfaction from parries.

Second the reward. The damage from parries is just perfect as it is (Spike+Spite oneshotting small enemies, major damage to big ones like golems and appropriate damage to elites and bosses). I am particularly talking about the What Doesn't Kill Me Mutation (WDKM). This mutation should offer more healing then Necromancy but it's actually way less. Necromancy requires no risk at all to be effective, while WDKM requires a huge risk, especially in situations where your health is low and you need healing.
So I think WDKM should work a little different. The greater the damage parried or dealt by parrying, the more healing should be provided. If you're using the parry as an offense strategy (which you guys did a beatiful job on with the available options!) the mutation shouldnt be 'out-healed' by Necromancy.

Thats about it for me. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I fell in love with your parry mechanics and functionality so I needed to get that out.

[nightshift]

It's nice to see someone apprechiating the genious parry mechanics in this game.
I'm certain they will not decrease the parrying time frame as it would alienate more people from this great but unappreciated and less used way of defense. Regardless if the fact that even prolonging it won't win more over as even that won't make a difference for the ones that are not using it. That's why they might as well decrease it, but whatever. I'm okay with it as it is.

What could make it better though is to make some enemies attack faster, so the challenge in parrying won't originate from the proper timing, but would be more of an act out of reflex. Right now you see the enemy is about to attack wait for it to actually initiate the movement then you concentrate on timing. But if the attacks were sudden and telegraphed for only a split fraction of a moment, we would parry out of a defensive reflex to that, which would not disrupt the flow of the combat and would result in a much more fluid experience.
There were numerous occasions when I saw the enemy about to attack, parried but it only lashed out much later resulting in a successful hit because the parry was over by then. Because if that I always have to wait for the enemy to graciously be kind and finally begin the attack animation so I can actually parry it. So upon seeing he attack, I cannot instantly react to it, I still have to wait and time my move, which is worse.



Also, I said it before numerous times, say it again since we are at he topic - devs, please make the Assault Shield great again just as it was before, so the charge will be instant instead of how it is now. Back then the movement of raising the shield and advancing forward was all at once in one swift motion. Now it's divided into two, first we get the shield up while still being stationary - then there's a momentary pause - and only after all that we proceed to actually slide forward. This sucks.
With the touch of a button it should start parrying while sliding forward, all at once. That's how it was before it got ruined and that's how it should be again.

[Sauvagess]

Originally posted by Jägermeister:

First the difficulty. See, after the first few runs specifying the parry, it feels quite satisfying as you learn the timing easily but after 20+ runs you notice that the time frame available to successfull parry your enemy is actually HUGE and you're not that good as you thought you were. The stop-motion on parries makes it easier parrying multiple opponents rapidly, but I like that.
So I think a shorter, more precise time frame to parry enemies attacks would promote the psychological satisfaction from parries.

No, the parry window is fine as it is, specifically for just how much of a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ things can get when there are more than 2 enemies aggroed at once. Additionally, the penalty for missing a parry is equally as huge, since you can't redeploy your shield if you whiff a parry, leaving you open to getting wrecked.

Originally posted by nightshiftgamer:

What could make it better though is to make some enemies attack faster, so the challenge in parrying won't originate from the proper timing, but would be more of an act out of reflex. Right now you see the enemy is about to attack wait for it to actually initiate the movement then you concentrate on timing. But if the attacks were sudden and telegraphed for only a split fraction of a moment, we would parry out of a defensive reflex to that, which would not disrupt the flow of the combat and would result in a much more fluid experience.
There were numerous occasions when I saw the enemy about to attack, parried but it only lashed out much later resulting in a successful hit because the parry was over by then. Because if that I always have to wait for the enemy to graciously be kind and finally begin the attack animation so I can actually parry it. So upon seeing he attack, I cannot instantly react to it, I still have to wait and time my move, which is worse.

The more boss cells you apply, the less wind-up enemy attacks have. At 5BC, enemy attacks are almost instant, so much so that you HAVE to parry on twitch-reflexes.

[nightshift]

Originally posted by Sauvagess:

The more boss cells you apply, the less wind-up enemy attacks have. At 5BC, enemy attacks are almost instant, so much so that you HAVE to parry on twitch-reflexes.

I play on 5 cells and never noticed any diference. I always have to wait for the phase when the enemies collect their momentum so I can finally parry them after.
Also that is why I hate the weapons that slows nearby enemies down. Unfortuantely it is quite common on Survival gear - where you use most of your shields with. Then I can never now whn exactly they decide to attack and always parry early out of estimating badly. I just see those zombies leaning back like if they we're stretching and they just remain like that as long as they like and then attack at a seemingly random time...
I know it's probably not like that, but it sure does look like it to me:)

[Jägermeister]

Originally posted by nightshiftgamer:

Originally posted by Sauvagess:

The more boss cells you apply, the less wind-up enemy attacks have. At 5BC, enemy attacks are almost instant, so much so that you HAVE to parry on twitch-reflexes.

I play on 5 cells and never noticed any diference. I always have to wait for the phase when the enemies collect their momentum so I can finally parry them after.
Also that is why I hate the weapons that slows nearby enemies down. Unfortuantely it is quite common on Survival gear - where you use most of your shields with. Then I can never now whn exactly they decide to attack and always parry early out of estimating badly. I just see those zombies leaning back like if they we're stretching and they just remain like that as long as they like and then attack at a seemingly random time...
I know it's probably not like that, but it sure does look like it to me:)

Yea thats another issue for me but I simply dont use anything to slow down/freeze enemies.
Thou it should be to the advantage of the player, it interferes with the parry build very badly.
I remember how a slowed Golem killed me because the charge was delayed and I parry too early.

Originally posted by nightshiftgamer:

What could make it better though is to make some enemies attack faster, so the challenge in parrying won't originate from the proper timing, but would be more of an act out of reflex. Right now you see the enemy is about to attack wait for it to actually initiate the movement then you concentrate on timing. But if the attacks were sudden and telegraphed for only a split fraction of a moment, we would parry out of a defensive reflex to that, which would not disrupt the flow of the combat and would result in a much more fluid experience.
There were numerous occasions when I saw the enemy about to attack, parried but it only lashed out much later resulting in a successful hit because the parry was over by then. Because if that I always have to wait for the enemy to graciously be kind and finally begin the attack animation so I can actually parry it. So upon seeing he attack, I cannot instantly react to it, I still have to wait and time my move, which is worse.

I actually like the different wind-ups on enemies. It's like being a project manager.
See, you have 4 different enemies around you and all of them gets to finish their wind-up to a slightly different time. So you have to subconsciously put those 4 in order and react to them in the order you predicted. The huge parry-frame of yours deals with multiple attacks that connect too rapidly to parry them seperatly.
Also, even if you're playing an offense parry build, I think you shouldnt attempt parries if you dont need to. Thats the wrong concept. If you need to deal major damage, heal yourself, reduce CD on skills, your dodge wont do or you simply want to practice its fine.
But just waiting for the strike because of the satisfaction should be punished.
DS3 flashbacks....

[nightshift]

I guess the idea was that slowing down enemies will mitigate the disadvantage of your slow weapons as most Survival melee gear are slow. I kinda enjoy using the Broadsword as the 2-3rd strike are very satisfying, but a lot of cases I have to cancel my attack myself and parry or roll instead as I see the enemy about to hit and I know it will be faster (for example at the serwers with the pink bats or the teleporting maggots),
Now as for freezing, that I like, especially on a Warspear. Slowing weapons on a Nutcracker could be great, or that freeze-bubble after death affix. I so wish I could master that weapon as it crits on frozen and slowed enemies and can even have the bonus damage affix on them, which alltogether sounds great paired with some ice-; or stun grenades. And a shield that freezes upon parry. And does +300% after... All that combined sounds amazing.
But it's also has a big wind-up leaving you open to attack for the faster foes. These weapons can really only be used AFTER a parry or a grenade, so it will allow you to take momentum before initiating the combo.