Really consider nerfing Watcher's red Tentacles at some point...

[CarThief]

Edit: Slightly revised nerf suggestion at the bottom of the post. The initial nerf suggestion may have been slightly overkill.
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Right now, sure, he's the final boss, you can get away with it. But when there's more areas and bosses to explore and defeat, this is really, REALLY overkill and attempting to escalate the difficulty of areas, enemies and bosses in later areas in comparison to the Watcher fight will make the game litterally unplayable for people, most likely. That, or everything is gonna be a cakewalk compared to watcher, which is also terrible, terrible design... It doesn't have to be That One Boss...

The tentacles right now are the biggest problem with the boss that stands out the most, once they go red, they're nearly unstoppable. You cannot inflict enough damage on them before they retract and their damage output and speed is so high they'll be the main source of your potion consumption after mastering his regular charge and ranged attacks.

In my experience they are just a run-ender if you are not equipped with a obscenely powerful melee weapon/build, or have skills to do TONS of damage instantly, or have crowd-control weapons like the Ivy Grenade, Frost Grenade, Hook, or whatever else stuns the tentacles and holds them in place. It also appears (but i could be mistaken) that they have increased defence/attack when going red.

My suggestions would be to either nerf the red tentacles in some way that makes them more managable without crowd-control (especially once you gotta deal with 3+ red tentacles!), or only making the tentacles go red when there's like 2-3 of them left (and ideally nerfing them JUST a little bit). That way the game's difficulty hasn't escalated too highly just yet and areas/bosses added afterwards don't have to be so damn hard, too.

Also, the bullet hell attack where the platforms are disabled is completely random and thus capable of generating undodgable patterns, which is the second-highest cause of potion consumption. And a really unfair one too, tentacles you may be able to handle with a top-tier build, but bullet hell? Unless you've brought a shield you can only expect to eat a hit, or several.
Removing the randomness and having some pre-set patterns would be a improvement, that way the pattern can be learned and damage can be avoided. Just like learning regular enemies' behaviours.

So yeah, i'd hope to be able to beat the Watcher with a regular build instead of a hyper-OP build that borders on exploitation. And maybe, that way the tentacles will actually be killable with a slow/subpar weapon, too. Or just with a regular build without having to specifically pick up a crowd-control skill, and still win through skill/learning.

Edit: And before anyone would go complain about me 'complaining', i'm doing this out of love for the game. It's been GREAT so far, but i feel it would be greatly improved if some of the suggestions in here where taken a look at and implemented in some way. I'm not exactly a top-tier skilled player when it comes to this game but us regular or slightly above average skilled folks would greatly appreciate it if we could, y'know, BEAT the game, eventually... :P

Edit2: After some constructive feedback and plenty of non-constructive 'feedback' (AKA trolls and elitists), here's a slightly revised nerf suggestion; maybe slightly less HP (they could always retreat early if they take a certain threshold of damage), having the red ones stay up longer so more weapons are viable (though less HP and staying up longer combined may be overkill). Ideally a better way to tell if a tentacle is readying up for a sweep (because you can't tell them apart when they just move around), and improving the quality of the bullet hell attack by avoiding cheap early hits and relying less on a randomized pattern which could generate something unavoidable.

I mean, think about it, this is the second boss. Chances are they're gonna add 2 more. Yet this guy and his tentacles are so rediculous, it would be easier to fight the Incomplete One 5 or more times in a row and win without potion refills. And it's either gonna make the levels/bosses afterwards look real easy, or if they're basing it on the Watcher's difficulty, make them extremely hard/unfair.

[Kamuel]

if have the watcher flawless and i must say: the hardest part was the poison nova shots all over the screen, that one with more than 2 waves :D

and i must agree: the tentacles are the easiest part, because they are on a predictable pattern

ps: i use bombs on the faster tentacles. On this way its not depending on weapons, so dont must play the same sort of weapon every time.

[ChaosSabre]

Originally posted by Kamuel:

if have the watcher flawless and i must say: the hardest part was the poison nova shots all over the screen, that one with more than 2 waves :D

and i must agree: the tentacles are the easiest part, because they are on a predictable pattern

ps: i use bombs on the faster tentacles. On this way its not depending on weapons, so dont must play the same sort of weapon every time.

The bullet hell spam is easily avoided if you make sure you stand under him during it. Slight left to right movement makes it rather easy to dodge. For me it's more that the framerate dies during that attack more than anything else XD

[Kamuel]

Originally posted by ChaosSabre:

The bullet hell spam is easily avoided if you make sure you stand under him during it. Slight left to right movement makes it rather easy to dodge. For me it's more that the framerate dies during that attack more than anything else XD

its feels not like a drop, more like a slowdown.

but what i want to say with it: this one was the thing on which i failed the most, because i move one step to much in one direction (and the shots have a very weird hitbox).
btw middle spot is not save, because he moves from left to right while he spam the shots (at least by me)

[Dice]

git gud

[Frosthaven]

One of my friends just got to the watcher for the first time and almost cleared it - now she's officially addicted. She was shocked people were asking for nerfs lol.

[Nishven]

Originally posted by ChaosSabre:

Originally posted by Nishven:

The fight isn't fun. Learning the fight doesn't make it faster. Just more safe. On the contrary, the Incomplete One, when mastered, is safe and fast.

Oh boy I'm absolutly on different mind with incomplete one. Learning the fight and knowing what he does just makes it so so much more tedious. That damn force field. It just prolongs the fight for no reason. If you didn't hit him with a dot before that it's I guess I just stand here and wait to deal damage again.

Forgot that... and his reflecting damage red aura :x
What I meant is that when we know his animations, we can just dodge/jump and deal continuous damage. The Watcher, well, we jump to try to hit him. One of my best try was with kunai+bomb (to dislodge the ammunitions), just because it was auto-aiming. No need to be really close. I hate him.

I personnally don't want a nerf, i'm fine with that. I just want him to be less of a ♥♥♥♥♥.

[Remni]

I was able to beat the Watcher on only my second try against him, using the obvious Whip+Boost combo with like lvl 8 Attack. Now while I was able to absolutely destroy him before he ever hit his third tentacle run, I do understand the frustration behind some of his attacks. The tentacle waves though are the most predictive and easiest to dodge as long as you dont use roll until the sideswipe happens.

[CarThief]

Hm, suprising how many people claim to have an easy time in their first few tries, but then again, that could only possibily be attributed to having gotten that far with an game-breaking build or they just learned alot more before making it to the graveyard, whereas i got there reasonably early while still learning things (oh how far cheaping it out with skill spam gets you...), which of course makes the boss next to impossible at that stage.

Can't say after that many attempts it's by any stretch easy. God knows what kind of crack they're smoking or builds they're setting up to cheap it out by force... But a minor nerf would still be in order, not everyone is a MLGWTFBBQ-ultra-super-pro at the game.
Not like they got much to lose with a nerf anyway when they're already adding extra hard difficulty levels anyway with NG+, from what i heard (and there's always the Cursed Sword for the masochists out there).
That way everyone gets something.

[HiddenSpikeTrap]

Originally posted by CarThief:

Hm, suprising how many people claim to have an easy time in their first few tries, but then again, that could only possibily be attributed to having gotten that far with an game-breaking build or they just learned alot more before making it to the graveyard, whereas i got there reasonably early while still learning things (oh how far cheaping it out with skill spam gets you...), which of course makes the boss next to impossible at that stage.

Can't say after that many attempts it's by any stretch easy. God knows what kind of crack they're smoking or builds they're setting up to cheap it out by force... But a minor nerf would still be in order, not everyone is a MLGWTFBBQ-ultra-super-pro at the game.
Not like they got much to lose with a nerf anyway when they're already adding extra hard difficulty levels anyway with NG+, from what i heard (and there's always the Cursed Sword for the masochists out there).
That way everyone gets something.

So I am that friend. I don't think it's entirely fair to call those "claims". I think I had a pretty good build but by no means OP. Couldn't just spam and had to ensure I got good hits in to proc poison. I'm still salty I died stupidly with only like 1/8th of his health left. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

Just to show (because I actually screenshot my build when I was still in prison depths (I think) because I had just picked up the amulet which provided even MORE poison into my build. I thought it was hilarious.

This is the exact build I fought the watcher with:
https://puu.sh/w8xWx/257134be3f.png

And for the record I've only played ~10-11 hours so far. I've left the game running a little here and there so it's probably added up.
https://puu.sh/w8BId/f6e89fe4e4.png

Everyone learns at their own pace and that's fine, but it's a little silly to dismiss some people's accomplishments as "claims". Though the fact I didn't quite beat it isn't really an accomplishment to me...I just hope to get him the second time :P

[Fragonar'sh]

I agree on everything Carthief said on this very difficult boss.

I played 69 hours into this game and can now meet the watcher 3 times out of 5. I have to change my playstyle : every single weapon/skills during the fog fjord & graveyard levels if i want to have a chance during this encounter.

Weapons with ammos are useless, slow weapons are useless, 3/4 of the weapons/skills are inadequate against him. I always end cheesing with whip/damage boost or knife storm*2 if i want to kill him.

i would very much like a serious nerf in the next update.

[ChaosSabre]

Originally posted by Frosthaven:

One of my friends just got to the watcher for the first time and almost cleared it - now she's officially addicted. She was shocked people were asking for nerfs lol.

I can beat the watcher consitently as well. My problem is more that only hard part of it is the speed at which the last tentacles comes out. The rest of it it's actually pretty simple.
And hey just because people can clear a boss doesn't mean it has bad design elements. "cough" Delirum Binding of Isaac "cough"

[Frosthaven]

Originally posted by ChaosSabre:

Originally posted by Frosthaven:

One of my friends just got to the watcher for the first time and almost cleared it - now she's officially addicted. She was shocked people were asking for nerfs lol.

I can beat the watched consitently as well. My problem is more that only hard part of it is the speed at which the last tentacles comes out. The rest of it it's actually pretty simple.
And hey just because people can clear a boss doesn't mean it has bad design elements. "cough" Delirum Binding of Isaac "cough"

For what its worth i still fail most of my isaac runs. Haven't really invested in the more advanced mechanics of it. But by the same token I'm not asking them to nerf anything for it either because I know it is mostly just me needing to "git gud" - and im okay with that xD

the defense scaling on some of boi's later bosses and the bullet hell still throw me for a loop. I think I cleared delirium on only 3 characters? I'd have to check.

[Bazelgeuse]

Originally posted by Frosthaven:

I can understand and respect that everyone moves at their own pace. I'm by no means amazing (it took me 30 hours before I could even beat the boss and I shared a lot of your views at the time). But now 65 hours into the game I've done a complete 180 in how I view the difficulty of the fight.

I guess thinking back to how my opinions have changed back then compared to now gives me pause when it comes to nerfing difficulty in a lot of ways. What I used to feel required a certain build now just requires me to not be "asleep at the wheel", as it were. If you would have told me I'd end 95% of my runs against the watcher with 3 potions still in the tank back then I'd probably have called you crazy.

Realistically if you beat him already at under 25 hours of playtime then you are ahead of where I was.

I beat him in under 13 hours. but im no pro :/

[Frosthaven]

Originally posted by ZionOtaku:

Originally posted by Frosthaven:

I can understand and respect that everyone moves at their own pace. I'm by no means amazing (it took me 30 hours before I could even beat the boss and I shared a lot of your views at the time). But now 65 hours into the game I've done a complete 180 in how I view the difficulty of the fight.

I guess thinking back to how my opinions have changed back then compared to now gives me pause when it comes to nerfing difficulty in a lot of ways. What I used to feel required a certain build now just requires me to not be "asleep at the wheel", as it were. If you would have told me I'd end 95% of my runs against the watcher with 3 potions still in the tank back then I'd probably have called you crazy.

Realistically if you beat him already at under 25 hours of playtime then you are ahead of where I was.

I beat him in under 13 hours. but im no pro :/

More importantly, how would you say it felt balance-wise?

[Bazelgeuse]

Originally posted by Frosthaven:

Originally posted by ZionOtaku:

I beat him in under 13 hours. but im no pro :/

More importantly, how would you say it felt balance-wise?

You know what? the boss is super easy. up untill you hit the 3rd mark and the 3 red tantacles go ham on you, problem is with all the tentacles around, you try kill them as fast as possible. BUT individually, and that makes it harder to beat the others when they go under ground/pop up faster. when there is 3 red tentacles at near full HP. they feel like they got more HP than the actual boss.

Beta branch i beat him (i got the achiv yesterday) using Flamebrand/FranticSword(+50% poison damage)/Meatgrinder(poison cloud on hitting enemy)/Ivy Grenade(keep the boss in place/tentacles).

the meatgrinder poison and flemebrand really did most of the work. they layer out the tentacles damage with the poison/grinder/fire ticks. making them all lose HP equally. thats what makes it easier. but the red tentacles are still hard and fast.

Problem is. the boss makes allot of weapons(none lock-on) not viable, you need specific skills and any old main hand weapon to beat him. the tentacles dont give you enough time once they turn red in 3rd phase.

Edit: one other thing. they need to make tentacles take damage when going under ground from poison/fire/bleed. if they are underground the DOT should slowly damage them as always.