Steam Locomotive Unrealistic and Needs Improvements

[LostALife]

I think the steam engine is very unrealistic in many ways.

First of all, steam trains do not go through that much coal in the firebox that fast. I think it would be much better if the coal usage is much lower even if that mean the price of coal increases.

Second, The steam train wouldn't start moving that fast. Even with the regulator at full it would take a good few seconds for a steam train that size to even get to 5 km/h. Also, once again even with the regulator at full and the reverser completely forward the train would only go about 10 km/h at most. You would then have to bring back the reverser for more speed.

Right now im just not interested in using the steam engine as i never have to use the reverser at less that 100% meaning its pretty much useless other than changing direction of movement. And you only ever use the regulator at a very low setting which often in real life it is set pretty high.

[Sasha]

As part of the Community Unlocks[www.derailvalley.com], an update focusing on the Steam Locomotive, and improving it's simulation and features, is scheduled. There is currently no ETA, but it's being worked on alongside other content updates. You'll certainly see improvement in the future!

[Altfuture]

Lost_A_Life_Gaming の投稿を引用：

First of all, steam trains do not go through that much coal in the firebox that fast. I think it would be much better if the coal usage is much lower even if that mean the price of coal increases.

The consumption of resources in Derail Valley is proportional to the distances involved. In real life the industries supplied by railway would be many more miles apart than they are in the game. For gameplay, and technical reasons, the world in Derail Valley is compressed, and as such the consumption is compressed too, to make it more interesting. Having realistic consumption would allow you to play for days back and forth without needing to restock a locomotive.

With that said, there are plans to reduce the amount of shoveling needed to restock the firebox, coming in the update Ivan mentioned.

i never have to use the reverser at less that 100% meaning its pretty much useless other than changing direction of movement.

Actually keeping it at 100% won't allow you to go over 40 km/h. For higher speeds you have to reduce the cut-off. We'll probably adjust this to be closer to 10 km/h, also in the said Steam Improvements update.

Thanks.

[IZHN3000]

Altfuture の投稿を引用：

Actually keeping it at 100% won't allow you to go over 40 km/h. For higher speeds you have to reduce the cut-off. We'll probably adjust this to be closer to 10 km/h, also in the said Steam Improvements update.

When start the steam loco stopped, if we put the regulator at full and put the reverser full forward (or backward), driving wheels will slip due to excessive torque in most cases.
And if we deploy sand, it's too late. Loco will stop soon.

In Japan, I heard that steam loco drivers ware educated as below (It's actually more complicated.) ;

! This explanation is based on the assumption that a loco that has stopped on a flat section will start. !
1. Put the reverser full forward position.
2. After releasing the brake, increase the regulator a little.
3. As soon as loco start running, bring back the reverser.
4. increase the regulator bit by bit, and bring back the reverser bit by bit while watching the acceleration.

Note : Except immediately after start (= reverser is full position), drivers adjust the reverser with speed [km/h] + cutoff rate [%] = 70 as a guide.
Cutoff rate is shown by reverser gauge. (For the SH282, it is on the right side of the reverser handle.)

The above is for reference information...

[TheLostPenguin]

IZHN3000 の投稿を引用：

Altfuture の投稿を引用：

Actually keeping it at 100% won't allow you to go over 40 km/h. For higher speeds you have to reduce the cut-off. We'll probably adjust this to be closer to 10 km/h, also in the said Steam Improvements update.

When start the steam loco stopped, if we put the regulator at full and put the reverser full forward (or backward), driving wheels will slip due to excessive torque in most cases.
And if we deploy sand, it's too late. Loco will stop soon.

In Japan, I heard that steam loco drivers ware educated as below (It's actually more complicated.) ;

! This explanation is based on the assumption that a loco that has stopped on a flat section will start. !
1. Put the reverser full forward position.
2. After releasing the brake, increase the regulator a little.
3. As soon as loco start running, bring back the reverser.
4. increase the regulator bit by bit, and bring back the reverser bit by bit while watching the acceleration.

Note : Except immediately after start (= reverser is full position), drivers adjust the reverser with speed [km/h] + cutoff rate [%] = 70 as a guide.
Cutoff rate is shown by reverser gauge. (For the SH282, it is on the right side of the reverser handle.)

The above is for reference information...

That's conceptually correct for how it's done, the specifics of when you start reducing cutoff, and how you balance cutoff/regulator position as you accelerate and where you'll end up to maintain a certain speed vary hugely depending on locomotive, load, conditions (both of the loco and environmental) just to mention the main variables.

As for points raised in the OP, the consumption rates have been mentioned by others, the same also applies to the diesels too, their fuel consumption is insane if viewed purely in relation to IRL rates.
Regarding speeds at full cutoff, 40kmh isn't insane at all and some locomotives of roughly comparable size IRL can certainly operate at those speeds at full cutoff, albeit horribly inefficiently compared to correctly gearing up. A modest reduction in speed before running into back pressure restrictions wouldn't be unreasonable and would make that something you had to think about more often ie a bigger part of average gameplay, something in the region of 25-30kmh would still be 'realistic' as in something that could be found on a real loco whilst still possibly improving gameplay. A loco that couldn't get above 10kmh at full cutoff strikes me as something that would be treading pretty close to a non-viable design, at least within the context of late era locomotive design.
Also a steam loco wont start moving that fast? Actually the opposite is true, with little or no load steam locos accelerate scarily fast assuming you don't slip to the point of losing your balance on the footplate if you do a ham-fisted job opening the regulator when starting or at low speeds. It takes a very deft touch to actually move a loco slowly when running light engine (no carriages/wagons coupled) or with a very small load on, remember you get 100% torque at a stall and reciprocal steam engines produce a LOT of torque. To do 5kmh running light engine you probably don't have the regulator open continually at all, you're doing open/shut as required to maintain that speed where the regulator is open for less than a second at a time to let it have a little sniff of steam and no more. Opening the regulator the minimum you reliably can and leaving it there will typically see you pass 5kmh in a few seconds.

[IZHN3000]

TheLostPenguin の投稿を引用：

That's conceptually correct for how it's done, the specifics of when you start reducing cutoff, and how you balance cutoff/regulator position as you accelerate and where you'll end up to maintain a certain speed vary hugely depending on locomotive, load, conditions (both of the loco and environmental) just to mention the main variables.

As for points raised in the OP, the consumption rates have been mentioned by others, the same also applies to the diesels too, their fuel consumption is insane if viewed purely in relation to IRL rates.
Regarding speeds at full cutoff, 40kmh isn't insane at all and some locomotives of roughly comparable size IRL can certainly operate at those speeds at full cutoff, albeit horribly inefficiently compared to correctly gearing up. A modest reduction in speed before running into back pressure restrictions wouldn't be unreasonable and would make that something you had to think about more often ie a bigger part of average gameplay, something in the region of 25-30kmh would still be 'realistic' as in something that could be found on a real loco whilst still possibly improving gameplay. A loco that couldn't get above 10kmh at full cutoff strikes me as something that would be treading pretty close to a non-viable design, at least within the context of late era locomotive design.
Also a steam loco wont start moving that fast? Actually the opposite is true, with little or no load steam locos accelerate scarily fast assuming you don't slip to the point of losing your balance on the footplate if you do a ham-fisted job opening the regulator when starting or at low speeds. It takes a very deft touch to actually move a loco slowly when running light engine (no carriages/wagons coupled) or with a very small load on, remember you get 100% torque at a stall and reciprocal steam engines produce a LOT of torque. To do 5kmh running light engine you probably don't have the regulator open continually at all, you're doing open/shut as required to maintain that speed where the regulator is open for less than a second at a time to let it have a little sniff of steam and no more. Opening the regulator the minimum you reliably can and leaving it there will typically see you pass 5kmh in a few seconds.

Thank you for your reply.
I explained based on Japan National Railway type "D51", the most produced steam loco in Japan.
That specification is ...

Manufacturing years : 1935 - 1945
Wheel arrangement : with 2 leading wheels, 8 coupled driving wheels and 2 trailing wheels
Gauge : 1067 mm
Rated load : about 1000 t
Steam pressure : 15 kgf/cm^2 (= 14.7 bar)
Mass : 125.77 t (78.37 t Locomotive, 47.4 t Tender)
Maximum speed : 85 km/h
Rated speed : about 40 - 60km/h

I think that has different operation characteristics because it was smaller and lighter than European loco.
That is the starting torque is large relative to the weight.
And the full cut-off positioned loco takes a few seconds to start when pulling 500 - 1000 t train.

[GHKtruc]

There's bigger flaw than "thing use too much coal". If you paid attention to steam usage you would realize it's consuming too much steam when it's full forward or full reverse. Doesn't matter if the train is moving or not, it will drop pressure as if someone shot a cannonball through it

[Legion]

It seems to be consuming everything too fast. I can understand there being faster consumption due to map size but I think it needs to be toned down a bit, or at least make stops mid route so we can refuel on the way.
I don't know how but I managed to run out of water on a rather short route (steel mill to port) I didn't even feel like I was using much water. (was my first time using steam loco in this game but still)

(may not be realistic but for gameplay I think it is useful due to the high rate of consumption), there needs to be a water gauge on the tender that way you can see how much water you have left to use, you can visually see coal go down in the tender but you have no idea how much water is left.

[GHKtruc]

For the water you need to climb on top of the tender and lift the trapdoor to see the remaining level.

[boris.glevrk]

Lost_A_Life_Gaming の投稿を引用：

i never have to use the reverser at less that 100%

You're probably pulling very, very, very light loads then...
right now I usually go half reverser at 10km/h, one notch at 20 and minimum at 30 when pulling any considerable load...

So according to the devs, now we know that steamer improvement will include adjustments for the cutoff valve.... good to hear, I'd say.

[GHKtruc]

Hopefully zeiback mod won't be required anymore

[alucia]

GHKtruc の投稿を引用：

Hopefully zeiback mod won't be required anymore

What mod is that? I'm assuming its on the Discord, but I use Nexus for the mods I use.

[Legion]

GHKtruc の投稿を引用：

For the water you need to climb on top of the tender and lift the trapdoor to see the remaining level.

Ah, ok thanks. Just got the game so still learning all the things I can interact with.
Steam is my prefered locomotive but currently it needs some love imo so I'm glad they are working on it.

Just some suggestions.
Put water refill points (water towers) along the routes, that way we can top off water along the way and won't run as much of a risk of running out. Irl for the most part it was expected to have two water stops for every fuel stop, so I think we should have water stops mid route and keep the coal stops at the stations.

Manual (interactive) refueling of the tender would be really cool. Having actual coal tower and water towers to physically use would add alot to the immersion, especially in VR. Having to drive under a coal tower or water tower and interacting with it similar to how it was done irl would be nice.

Wheel slip sound on the steam engine imo could use some tweaks, on steam engines wheel slip has alot of chugging and not as much sound from the wheels themselves like we hear in-game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQKbwiRZ7fY

AI Fireman would help ease the labour required to run the locomotive, it's simply too much work imo to run the locomotive by yourself, especially when going up or down a grade and trying to watch speed, breaking, etc. Steam engines are definitely a two man job.

Double heading. Maybe if we can get AI crews we could see some double heading for steam locomotives like we do with diesel. Multiplayer could solve this problem but if multiplayer isn't possible then AI is the next best thing.

Not related to steam engine themselves but to futer ai. Would be cool to see AI taking the same jobs like the player can, instead of it all being somewhat scripted it'd be cool to have the ai follow similar job as the player.

Some of these were probably thought about or already mentioned but I just figured I'd add my two cents.

This game has a ton of potential, it's by far the most immersive train game/sim I've played. I'd really like to see it grow and become more and more popular.

[IZHN3000]

Legion の投稿を引用：

Wheel slip sound on the steam engine imo could use some tweaks, on steam engines wheel slip has alot of chugging and not as much sound from the wheels themselves like we hear in-game.

I felt it too. The same is true for diesel loco.
However, I think the developers dare to make a loud noise from the wheels to make it easier to understand.
I think this is intuitive and good.
So, I think there is not need to change.

And, if it possible, I thought it would be good there is more a louder draft sound from cylinder like your posted video.
Wheelslip is not a good thing, but it is very powerful!

By the way, developers said AI fireman is planed. :)

[chadnesbit]

Legion の投稿を引用：

Double heading. Maybe if we can get AI crews we could see some double heading for steam locomotives like we do with diesel. Multiplayer could solve this problem but if multiplayer isn't possible then AI is the next best thing.

Thanks to mods from nexus I'm triple heading steam engines right now. What you do in one engine is duplicated in the others except independent braking. I wouldn't like this game near as much without the HUD add on, route manager, DV custom, and some others...

[Randox]

TheLostPenguin の投稿を引用：

Also a steam loco wont start moving that fast? Actually the opposite is true, with little or no load steam locos accelerate scarily fast assuming you don't slip to the point of losing your balance on the footplate if you do a ham-fisted job opening the regulator when starting or at low speeds.

There are some videos of (and maybe some by) Union Pacafic showing how they operate a steamer (UP 844 in particular), and yeah, *not* spinning the wheels or knocking all the passengers on their butts is the hard part. With a light load they put the reverser pretty far forward (far enough to guarantee at least one cylinder admits steam), and then crack and immediately close the throttle. If nothing happens they hold it open a moment longer, and repeat until the train starts to move. Then dial the reverser back and play with the throttle (this is for the light trains it currently pulls. UP 844 is meant for much bigger trains). One of the big things is how long it takes for the throttle to respond. I think they said if you get it spinning when starting out, it keeps going for a couple seconds after the throttle is closed.

I find the range on the ingame steamer alright. It can make it from the harbour to the north west and back without refueling. Maybe 600 tonnes each way, and including a couple stalls.