why is sonic mania so hard or sonic games in general?

[the black blur]

i'm still up to flying battery act 2 and can't even pass the whole damn act i grew up with sega game drive, 2d platforms, sonic cartoons, the old sonic and playing sonic games and still can't compete with sonic mania plus the boss and special stages are even harder.

[Crashed]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Ikagura:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von StRyK:

The original Sonic trilogy was never considered difficult. Problems could only be in the first and second parts. It was difficult because of the lack of saves, you always had to start from the very beginning. Saves have been added to Sonic 3, the game has become much easier. Sonic Mania inherits the ideas of Sonic 3, it is similar in complexity to the third part, but the levels have become longer and more varied in terms of mechanics

I'd say that Sonic 1 having a Game Over sending you back to square one was fair for an early 90's platformer who only had 6 Zones (well, technically 18 levels since they got 3 acts each) and the replay value was to get the best score/time and all Chaos Emeralds (for a mere cutscene change but at least special stages were good for getting continues at least).

But Sonic 2 on the other hand had no reasons to not have any kind of password system because of its sheer lenght (almost twice the zone number) and how harder it is in general compared to Sonic 1 (aside from Labyrinth and Scrap Brain the game is a breather, especially in Green Hill and Spring Yard).

Thankfully Sonic 3&K had saves considering how big the levels are compared to Sonic 2 (even with only 6 Zones in Sonic 3 standalone is almost as long as Sonic 2).


Sonic Mania has a level design that is less frustrating with cheap die & retry deaths as we got in the Genesis games.

There were cheap deaths in Chemical Plant Zone Act 1 before they tweaked the timing of the crusher blocks.

[ShriekViola]

Always had more difficulty with Mario games tbh, mainly because plumber boy has a much weightier momentum that makes it harder for me to predict jump distance / landings and you can't instantly recollect lost mushrooms after getting hit like you can with rings.

[Ikagura]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crashed:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Ikagura:

I'd say that Sonic 1 having a Game Over sending you back to square one was fair for an early 90's platformer who only had 6 Zones (well, technically 18 levels since they got 3 acts each) and the replay value was to get the best score/time and all Chaos Emeralds (for a mere cutscene change but at least special stages were good for getting continues at least).

But Sonic 2 on the other hand had no reasons to not have any kind of password system because of its sheer lenght (almost twice the zone number) and how harder it is in general compared to Sonic 1 (aside from Labyrinth and Scrap Brain the game is a breather, especially in Green Hill and Spring Yard).

Thankfully Sonic 3&K had saves considering how big the levels are compared to Sonic 2 (even with only 6 Zones in Sonic 3 standalone is almost as long as Sonic 2).


Sonic Mania has a level design that is less frustrating with cheap die & retry deaths as we got in the Genesis games.

There were cheap deaths in Chemical Plant Zone Act 1 before they tweaked the timing of the crusher blocks.

This is more of an engine problem.

But I'd agree that cruching and pits made me lose a life more than enemies.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ShriekViola:

Always had more difficulty with Mario games tbh, mainly because plumber boy has a much weightier momentum that makes it harder for me to predict jump distance / landings and you can't instantly recollect lost mushrooms after getting hit like you can with rings.

Mario games are perfectly made so you have perfect momentum and control.

[GlaceonChireiden]

Sonic games are very fast games, and this kind of works against them. It's not your fault for finding these games hard, Sonic games are similar to Megaman in the sense that there's a lot of stuff that you can't feasibly dodge unless you know it's coming beforehand.

I suggest starting with Sonic 1, the game is the closest to the original inspiration of Sonic (that being, racing through mario 1-1 every time you game over, slowly getting faster and faster at it). Sonic 1 forces you to take things slow, unless you know the game. This is why Sonic 1 is one of the more fun classic games. Speed is earned through knowledge of the game and skill, instead of being handed to you on a silver platter like sonic 2+ do.

Trial and error my friend. That's how Sonic works. Just keep throwing yourself at it, eventually you'll learn how Sonic reacts. Take it slow, you don't have to be blasting through at full speed 24/7, that will get you killed. Going fast in Sonic is a result of knowing the game, not the default state.

It gets easier the more you do it. Sonic 1/2/3/CD used to be impossible as a kid, but nowadays I can consistently beat Sonic 1 with all 6 emeralds without much issue. It's just a matter of building up that muscle memory and learning how to fight the games bullsh*t moments.

[SwordLAAAA]

its the sort of series where the first playthrough is the worst, it gets good when you know what happens

[Bruh_Boy_Real]

Honestly, when I first played Sonic Mania, I couldn't beat this zone either. Though a year later, I had a lot more experience with classic sonic at that point. So, I picked up the game again and it wasn't hard at all. So what I recommend to do is replay the classic games, maybe to get the hang of things again?

[Bob of Mage]

I'd say Mania is a tad easier since there are far less chances to die from stuff like pits or drowning. For example in Mania I feel like all the water areas are just long enough that you never have to worry about drowning outside one very annoying Chemical Plant area. There is also little water outside the single water themed zone. In 3 there was water heavy areas in at least three other zones. I actually felt the aqua shield was useful in 3, unlike Mania where it never really useful for preventing drowning.

In terms of pits, if this was an older game, the warp fog in the final level would not warp you back to the start of the area, but instead be bottomless.

Also if you want a harder game go back and play 3&K as Knuckles. He has a lower jump, and slower speed, yet the levels and bosses are setup to be harder. Stuff like extra hazards, or bosses not giving some of the same opening.

[CynEater]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von алекс)):

i'm still up to flying battery act 2 and can't even pass the whole damn act i grew up with sega game drive, 2d platforms, sonic cartoons, the old sonic and playing sonic games and still can't compete with sonic mania plus the boss and special stages are even harder.

sonic 1 & 2 where hard
I use to finished 3 almost every friday night after school
Finished sonic and knuckles afew times
and sonic 3 and knuckes a few times

Sonic mania is not fun
Its hard
unpolished
and not fun
special stages are dumb and not fun
It seems like an unpolished fan game

[madve2]

So I have played Sonic Mania first last year, and as joyous as the graphics and the music are, I have found it frustrating and rarely enjoyed it, though I did play it to completion (not the best ending though). I also completed the classic Sonic games relatively recently (i.e. 1-2 years before mania, not as a kid) and apart from some mildly difficult parts here and there (like the barrel of doom in Sonic 3, or the final boss in Sonic 2, or getting lost in Sandopolis act 2) I didn't have issues with any of them, so I don't think I'm not "up to" playing Mania or that I'm spolied by modern game difficulty.

A few weeks ago, I have completed the classic games again, enjoyed them a lot and decided to give Mania another go. It's still beautiful, still sounds great, but the gameplay still didn't click with me. Yes, the levels have less insta-deaths than e.g. Sonic 2 and they mostly have a good flow, but the bosses still are super frustrating. Like, there's literally no boss in the classic games that I wasn't able to figure out on my own, whereas in Mania I had to look up multiple of them on youtube because even after a dozen deaths I had zero idea what I was supposed to do. Am I dumb? Well, I'm sure a lot of people figured them out on their own, so by that standard, yes, I am. But by the standard of the classic games, they are definitely more quirky obscure than they'd need to be.

[Rings]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von madve2:

So I have played Sonic Mania first last year, and as joyous as the graphics and the music are, I have found it frustrating and rarely enjoyed it, though I did play it to completion (not the best ending though). I also completed the classic Sonic games relatively recently (i.e. 1-2 years before mania, not as a kid) and apart from some mildly difficult parts here and there (like the barrel of doom in Sonic 3, or the final boss in Sonic 2, or getting lost in Sandopolis act 2) I didn't have issues with any of them, so I don't think I'm not "up to" playing Mania or that I'm spolied by modern game difficulty.

A few weeks ago, I have completed the classic games again, enjoyed them a lot and decided to give Mania another go. It's still beautiful, still sounds great, but the gameplay still didn't click with me. Yes, the levels have less insta-deaths than e.g. Sonic 2 and they mostly have a good flow, but the bosses still are super frustrating. Like, there's literally no boss in the classic games that I wasn't able to figure out on my own, whereas in Mania I had to look up multiple of them on youtube because even after a dozen deaths I had zero idea what I was supposed to do. Am I dumb? Well, I'm sure a lot of people figured them out on their own, so by that standard, yes, I am. But by the standard of the classic games, they are definitely more quirky obscure than they'd need to be.

Curious to know which bosses you struggled with?

[madve2]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Rings:

Curious to know which bosses you struggled with?

It's been a while since my first playthrough, so my memory is a bit hazy, but these ones stood out:

- The Hydrocity boss. Yes, in hindsight, I understand that it is a clever reference to the Sonic 3 Hydrocity boss, but when I first played Mania, I have only completed Sonic 3 before once, and I didn't remember this at all, and had zero idea what to do with it in Mania
- The Studiopolis act 1 boss. I just didn't understand why it's impossible to avoid the rockets, until a video made me realize that you can actually jump on the blue ones. Even then, it's overly long and unforgiving for a 3rd zone boss. It's akin to the Metal Sonic fight in Sonic CD, except that one is a lot easier, despite being at the end of the penultimate zone.
- The Flying Battery zone 2 boss. Again, just trying to be overly clever in the design. (Though it probably didn't help that I already loathed Flying Battery in S&K, and the Mania version is even worse of course, and you have to redo it all over again if you run out of lives at this boss.)

I understand that opinions may vary. I know for example how popular the Hydrocity boss is to those who got the reference. And yes, classic Sonic games have annoying bosses too, but most of them are fun to fight. Most Mania bosses are just annoying. The Chemical Plant zone 2 boss was amusing though.

[Rings]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von madve2:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Rings:

Curious to know which bosses you struggled with?

It's been a while since my first playthrough, so my memory is a bit hazy, but these ones stood out:

- The Hydrocity boss. Yes, in hindsight, I understand that it is a clever reference to the Sonic 3 Hydrocity boss, but when I first played Mania, I have only completed Sonic 3 before once, and I didn't remember this at all, and had zero idea what to do with it in Mania
- The Studiopolis act 1 boss. I just didn't understand why it's impossible to avoid the rockets, until a video made me realize that you can actually jump on the blue ones. Even then, it's overly long and unforgiving for a 3rd zone boss. It's akin to the Metal Sonic fight in Sonic CD, except that one is a lot easier, despite being at the end of the penultimate zone.
- The Flying Battery zone 2 boss. Again, just trying to be overly clever in the design. (Though it probably didn't help that I already loathed Flying Battery in S&K, and the Mania version is even worse of course, and you have to redo it all over again if you run out of lives at this boss.)

I understand that opinions may vary. I know for example how popular the Hydrocity boss is to those who got the reference. And yes, classic Sonic games have annoying bosses too, but most of them are fun to fight. Most Mania bosses are just annoying. The Chemical Plant zone 2 boss was amusing though.

And here I was expecting the oil ocean zone boss to be one of your complaints. It was the only one that managed to get me in my first playthrough.

I get your complaints though. The bosses in this game just suck and aren't fun to fight.

[Ikagura]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Rings:

Mania's disappointingly easy, and they did this to try to appeal to newcomers. I find myself going back to Sonic 2 and 3 to be challenged. You just need to get used to platformers in general. I remember the classics used to be impossible when I was a kid.

And what's the issue for being newcommer friendly?


Sonic 2 has some tedious parts (since it was rushed) and the fact you couldn't continue the game after a game over was just a way to artificially makes it longer.

[Rings]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Ikagura:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Rings:

Mania's disappointingly easy, and they did this to try to appeal to newcomers. I find myself going back to Sonic 2 and 3 to be challenged. You just need to get used to platformers in general. I remember the classics used to be impossible when I was a kid.

And what's the issue for being newcommer friendly?


Sonic 2 has some tedious parts (since it was rushed) and the fact you couldn't continue the game after a game over was just a way to artificially makes it longer.

You feeling okay there, buddy? You already sent some messages in here, are you coming back from a coma with amnesia and going through the thread again?

[NBOX21]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Ikagura:

And what's the issue for being newcomer friendly?

I don't actually have a problem with Mania being newcomer friendly as it feels like the kind of game both long time fans and first time players can jump into and play just fine due to the lack of hand-holding and how the game can still present some level of challenge to beat despite the lower difficulty compared to the Mega Drive games.

It only becomes a problem in games like Forces when it not only lacks challenge completely but also holds your hand the entire way through.