Your thoughts on the lives system

[Delta]

While I get that the lives system is there for authenticity I find myself wondering if as a mechanic it adds more than it takes away. It could just be that I have less patience for games now I'm older and have less free time but the idea of having to replay a whole level just to have another crack at a boss I'm struggling against feels frustrating and more like artificial difficulty rather than a proper challenge.

I should stress I'm not saying the game should be easier, in fact a more forgiving checkpoint system would mean you could afford to make things more challenging, all I'm opposed to is having to repeat several minutes of gameplay I've already proved I can do in order to get another try at the bit I'm actually having difficulty with.

Maybe you could get the best of both worlds by making the lives system present but optional, or making 100 rings/1ups award some other benefit so they're still desirable, e.g. a token you can trade for secrets (the way some roguelikes give you points you can spend on permanent bonuses at the end of a run).

[Yskar]

I ended my first run with 25 lives, this game is easier than any other classic Sonic games in regards of extra lifes.

[Delta]

Originally posted by Smash45:

Originally posted by Delta:

Dude, limiting the number of tries you have at a challenge doesn't make the game more difficult, it just wastes your time by making you repeat stuff you've already done.

As for "how do you end up with so few lives?" if you're on your first run and just charging through the levels taking a lot of hits you won't get that many 100 ring lives or find many 1up monitors, and the ones you do get will be counteracted by any lives you lose during the levels. Plenty of bosses you can beat first time, but if every third boss or so takes a couple of tries to beat then it's going to eat into your tally.

"if you're on your first run and just charging through the levels"
Why would you play the game like that? On my first run I collected rings, broke 1up monitors when I saw them and kill/avoid enemies not run into them. I don't play platformers by holding right and hoping the game lets me win.

Phrased that badly. I don't mean to say I wasn't being careful but I took a fair few hits in spite of that, and while I looked around I didn't keep backtracking to explore alternate routes or anything. If I saw an alternate route I'd try and take it, but I also kept a reasonable flow going and didn't find many bonuses (came across like three bonus stage rings in the whole game). I was taking enough hits that I'd get maybe 1 100 ring life per stage if I was lucky but seldom any monitors, and I tended to be a bit too aggressive against bosses rather than waiting them out and figuring out patterns.

When it comes down to it, different people have different experiences and preferences. I enjoy challenging fights (I've completed Dark Souls and Super Meat Boy and done no gear runs in Shovel Knight) but I don't want the stress of running out of attempts or the tedium of repeating something easy in order to get another try at something difficult.

[Sifer2]

Originally posted by Yskar:

I ended my first run with 25 lives, this game is easier than any other classic Sonic games in regards of extra lifes.

Yeah that's what I said earlier. It's like the New Super Mario Bros games. They have lives but the levels are just filled with so many coins you will collect a ton of 1 ups. Mania is the same. There are tons of rings so long as your not losing them to getting hit all the time you will collect dozens of extra lives. In the original Sonic's you would only get about a third of the extra's you get in Mania.

If anything the more annoying throwback is the 10 min time limit. Since some of Mania's levels are huge, and if your trying to explore for big rings you will run up into the 8-9 min mark almost every time.

[VolnuttHeroP64]

Sonic Forces removes the Lives system and lost rings can't be recovered because it's set in the alternate timeline.

[Paratech2008]

forgive me if I'm wrong, but I remember Sonic the Hedgehog and Sonic 2 having limited continues that had to be earned by playing bonus stages or getting enough rings in a stage and keeping them to the end.

Sonic Mania saves every stage, so you only have to replay the last save if you lose on a stage.

[99dSFMu12]

Originally posted by Paratech2008:

forgive me if I'm wrong, but I remember Sonic the Hedgehog and Sonic 2 having limited continues that had to be earned by playing bonus stages or getting enough rings in a stage and keeping them to the end.

Sonic Mania saves every stage, so you only have to replay the last save if you lose on a stage.

Sonic 2 continues are the lives from Mania.

[morenoquinteiro]

Lives adds tension. I'm tottaly pro it.

[Smash45]

Originally posted by Delta:

Originally posted by Smash45:

"if you're on your first run and just charging through the levels"
Why would you play the game like that? On my first run I collected rings, broke 1up monitors when I saw them and kill/avoid enemies not run into them. I don't play platformers by holding right and hoping the game lets me win.

Phrased that badly. I don't mean to say I wasn't being careful but I took a fair few hits in spite of that, and while I looked around I didn't keep backtracking to explore alternate routes or anything. If I saw an alternate route I'd try and take it, but I also kept a reasonable flow going and didn't find many bonuses (came across like three bonus stage rings in the whole game). I was taking enough hits that I'd get maybe 1 100 ring life per stage if I was lucky but seldom any monitors, and I tended to be a bit too aggressive against bosses rather than waiting them out and figuring out patterns.

When it comes down to it, different people have different experiences and preferences. I enjoy challenging fights (I've completed Dark Souls and Super Meat Boy and done no gear runs in Shovel Knight) but I don't want the stress of running out of attempts or the tedium of repeating something easy in order to get another try at something difficult.

And that explains it.
I get your reasons, but your behaviour toward bosses is what gives you that bad experience. I get that it's tedious to repeat the final level but try to look for 1up monitors, collect rings and avoid enemies at least on the final level. The final boss (no emeralds) is not even that hard, I think I died once on that boss. Your aggresive tendency on bosses is what ruined your run.
So in other words it's sort off your fault, kind of like when you play a game with quicksaves and complain about doing part all over again after again because you didn't quicksave.

[404_Not_Found]

Originally posted by Smash45:

To be honest it sounds like platformers in general are not good for you.
Maybe you should stick to your leisure games. Sonic Mania is far less cheap than the classic titles, and reading about your performance on Mania in your comments I don't think games above the easy difficulty are for you. You don't seem to be in the demographic for which this game was made for.
Not trying to be offensive, but that seems to be the case

I actually went into the game expecting it to be too hard for me. Usually, I avoid games that I think will be too difficult because not beating a game = not getting my money's worth.

But, I actually did manage to beat the game, and it IS a lot less unfair than the old games, and I appreciate it for that. I appreciate that this game can reach out to people like me who are less hardcore than people who have consistently replayed these games for 20+ years.

I do not agree at all with the idea that the game was 'too easy' for that reason. Maybe it was too easy for people who know the ins and outs of the physics, but did it ever occur to anyone that they are just overqualified?

Also, people have different skillsets, I am crazy good at blue sphere and puyo puyo because they present a different kind of challenge than pure twitch, which was basically all sonic 2 was. I think that's another reason mania has a wider appeal than the old games, because in many aspects of its design, it acknowledges those other skillsets.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is, saying a game isn't 'for someone' applies sometimes, but I don't think it applies here, I think mania does actually want to appeal to my demographic - people who prefer the game gear games, people who liked blue sphere, people who are more about puzzles and exploration than raw twitch. The twitch is still there, but it isn't as huge a barrier for entry as it was in the old days.

I guess I just wish more people appreciated that instead of seemingly want to shut out more people because they'd like a possible next game to be kaizo mania.

Originally posted by Sifer2:

If anything the more annoying throwback is the 10 min time limit. Since some of Mania's levels are huge, and if your trying to explore for big rings you will run up into the 8-9 min mark almost every time.

I agree with this tbh, the advance games gave you the option to disable the time out penalty, I wish mania did as well. It's such a dumb thing to have and I died to it 4 times in my first run...

[Xuande]

(Playing on console-DRM, preferable to Denuvo, hence I don't own on Steam)

They do seem pointless, since good players aren't going to run out of lives while bad players are more likely to be content tourists, who are better off being able to brute force their way through stages.

My first, spoiler-free run saw me get all Emeralds as Sonic and end on 17 lives. That number would have been close to 30, except that:

* I took at least a half-dozen time-out deaths.
* The stupid train "cutscene". If you decide to jump when the train zooms by, which seems like the intuitive thing to do, you automatically die. I dropped quite a few lives doing this.
* It took me a few goes at the last boss before I figured out that hitting Jump is actively bad.

[Dan5000]

i still don't know how the gameoverscreen looks. played through it 4 times, always had 30-50 lives at the end of the story. so i don't have a problem with going through a level again. i think it's fine to start from anew, if you couldn't do it... think about the first sonic game. you just started from green hill once you had no lives left. by replaying a level you already did you also get better at the controls, the mechanics, find more ways, more secrets. maybe take another route? maybe there's a giant ring? maybe it's the last one so you can go super sonic instead, if you really can't do it? anyway. the point is: you get better, not just by playing against the boss itself. if you can just repeat the very same exact spot 20 times in a row, you might still not have learned it, in fact, if you died multiple times at the same spot, you most likely keep doing the same mistake. if you can try to beat something using that mistake as many times as you want, and finally DO beat it. you end up still not knowing how it's done.

just an example: press garden zone act 1 boss.

in my first 3 playthroughs i just tanked it and hit him twice while my invincibility frames were still up, just boosting through it. now on my 4th try i actually saw that the machine itself doesn't go near you. it'll stop just before you, and use his blade. that blade doesn't have to collide with one of the boxes as i thought the entire time. it can just hit the ground and you can hit it for free. very easy boss, doesn't need any dmg boosting, isn't frustrating at all. it only is if you are trying to do it while jumping through the boxes and hope it hits a box etc. these are 3 VERY different experiences. one of which seems unfair and annoying. one abuses the rings and gets hit all the time, but only the last really plays it correctly. keep a cool head and figure it out. every boss is easy if you just wait and pay attention for a moment.

[wrz]

Yeah, I do find it a bit harsh that it doesn't save between acts.

However, there are alternatives for those who have extreme amounts of trouble. For one thing there's the dev menu (not the same thing as the debug menu) which can be enabled by adding devMenu=y under [Game] in settings.ini

Or using a save editor to give yourself more lives.

Just like the classics, the equivalent of using a Game Genie if things are too difficult even with repeated gameplay.

[CheatFreak]

As a sonic fan, I had almost no trouble 100%ing this game, only days after I got it
Game is only slightly challenging, you have to be paying attention and have some skill but it's overall a great time, I never ran out of lives.

[Inku ❤]

I'm kinda necroing this thread, but I just had to reply - why not just give the option for a liveless mode? I'm incredibly bad at sonic, and the game is so frustrating to me, I know I should 'git gud' and older games had it harder, but when I've almost finished an act I've been struggling on, then I get a game over, that's not fun, that doesn't incentivise me to play more to get better, that makes me want to close the game.

Basically, lives have singlehandedly ruined this game for me, and they're one of the reasons I can't play sonic. I don't get why there's not just an *option* to play without them.

[VolnuttHeroP64]

Doom Eternal had an extra lives system and that you need to replay levels to grind for them.

But for other games I played, some being hard but they had no lives counter. In other words, Infinite Lives & Continues.

Mega Man 11 on its easiest Difficulty has infinite lives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2CLO8CcBjg

So I feel that this Extra Lives system would be not needed lately. A player could keep playing forever but if that player is killed, that player would suffer a penalty for dying in a game such as losing money as seen in Boarderlands, Bioshock Infinite & Mario, just to name a few.

Disney's Ace in Action also had a Penalty System for dying in a level such as losing acorns which are need for upgrades.