You should not be able to PK people with too large of a gear score gap

[XenoAlbedo]

I know they have a harsh karma system for such things (and recently made it even harsher for this very scenario), but I fail to see how it is even remotely good game design to allow somebody with the best gear in the game to just swoop in and insta-wipe an entire party that has no possible way to win because numbers will always beat skill in this game.

Edit: I can see I wasn't very constructive with this post. It was hastily written without much thought and I do apologize for that. I'm pasting some ideas from one of my later replies that could, in my opinion, potentially improve the system:

I can think of a couple changes. The most simple would simply be to set a maximum GS gap (50 - 100?) where forced PVP can be initiated. There would be no changes to node wars, Red Battlefield, arenas, or duels.

However, I am far more partial to the idea of a bounty system. Either the game would automatically set a bounty on the killer, potentially based on the gap between levels and gear score as well as the overall karma of the killer, or perhaps it would even let the victim place the bounty themselves using their own money (I could see this being easily exploited though). In either scenario, the bounty would be distributed the the player/party that killed them.

The latter of the two main ideas would leave the overall PVP system as is but provide a more player-oriented punishment system with actual incentive.

[XenoAlbedo]

UrbanNoodles✅ původně napsal:

XenoAlbedo původně napsal:

I think you need to look up what both the words "literally" and "crying" mean. Also the word "every."

But yes, evidently voicing any complaint or negative opinion of a game is crying. I should have known that any attempt to have an actual "discussion" with what is a combination of two of some of the most toxic communities in gaming would simply end in people yelling "crybaby, carebear, git gud!"

If anybody else would like to have, you know, an actual discussion about this mechanic and why they think it is legitimately good and well-designed other than "It's how things are," I more than welcome it. I am, however, done talking to this person and anybody else who can only comprehend dissenting opinions as crying and whining.

It's crazy how blind you are to what you say in your own thread. Your very first post to this thread is nothing but crying about how unfair it is that someone who has better gear than you is able to wipe a group of new players. You haven't even posted anything constructive yet, how do you expect to have a discussion when all you say is "the system is flawed if someone with leet gear can just swoop in and kill me in a blink of an eye" You never once suggest punishments, changes, or wards to the "issue". Stop trying to sound like you are doing anything other than crying about getting spanked.

All you are literally saying is "People with high gear score can kill new players with very low gear score, my goodness this is a flawed system." - Even though its an mmorpg with open world pvp and everyone who looks into a game before buying would know this game has a large emphasis on open world PvP. This is type of crying is the definition of a carebear. Carebears are more toxic than liberals. (They probably are liberals)

Instead of waiting for someone to dig you out of the carebear crybaby hole you dug for yourself, you could go ahead and start listing improvements. That's the best way to start a discussion and is how you should have started this thread off instead of with all the whine.

I'm sorry. It's late as hell here and I've had an absurdly stressful couple of months. It's not much of an excuse, but it's certainly put me a lot more on edge than usual.

I can think of a couple changes. The most simple would simply be to set a maximum GS gap (50 - 100?) where forced PVP can be initiated. There would be no changes to node wars, Red Battlefield, arenas, or duels.

However, I am far more partial to the idea of a bounty system. Either the game would automatically set a bounty on the killer, potentially based on the gap between levels and gear score as well as the overall karma of the killer, or perhaps it would even let the victim place the bounty themselves using their own money (I could see this being easily exploited though). In either scenario, the bounty would be distributed the the player/party that killed them.

The latter of the two main ideas would leave the overall PVP system as is but provide a more player-oriented punishment system with actual incentive.

[Elric]

XenoAlbedo původně napsal:

UrbanNoodles✅ původně napsal:

It's crazy how blind you are to what you say in your own thread. Your very first post to this thread is nothing but crying about how unfair it is that someone who has better gear than you is able to wipe a group of new players. You haven't even posted anything constructive yet, how do you expect to have a discussion when all you say is "the system is flawed if someone with leet gear can just swoop in and kill me in a blink of an eye" You never once suggest punishments, changes, or wards to the "issue". Stop trying to sound like you are doing anything other than crying about getting spanked.

All you are literally saying is "People with high gear score can kill new players with very low gear score, my goodness this is a flawed system." - Even though its an mmorpg with open world pvp and everyone who looks into a game before buying would know this game has a large emphasis on open world PvP. This is type of crying is the definition of a carebear. Carebears are more toxic than liberals. (They probably are liberals)

Instead of waiting for someone to dig you out of the carebear crybaby hole you dug for yourself, you could go ahead and start listing improvements. That's the best way to start a discussion and is how you should have started this thread off instead of with all the whine.

I'm sorry. It's late as hell here and I've had an absurdly stressful couple of months. It's not much of an excuse, but it's certainly put me a lot more on edge than usual.
I can think of a couple changes. The most simple would simply be to set a maximum GS gap (50 - 100?) where forced PVP can be initiated. There would be no changes to node wars, Red Battlefield, arenas, or duels.
However, I am far more partial to the idea of a bounty system. Either the game would automatically set a bounty on the killer, potentially based on the gap between levels and gear score as well as the overall karma of the killer, or perhaps it would even let the victim place the bounty themselves using their own money (I could see this being easily exploited though). In either scenario, the bounty would be distributed the the player/party that killed them.
The latter of the two main ideas would leave the overall PVP system as is but provide a more player-oriented punishment system with actual incentive.

I actually like the idea of a bounty system, would certainly make things more interesting and wouldn't intefere that much with open pvp

[Hugin]

If ur grinding same spots as higher levels, means you have pretty strong gear.

[2PLY]

I do like how some of that sounds instead of how it is now.

We're mostly just getting the korean version at a slower pace so it's very unlikely anything we say that's game-altering/new systems will happen however.

[Kai]

The problem isn't that the game intends to allow this, the problem is that the game doesn't see a need to limit it.

For instance having numbers becoming less potent the higher it is above someone when it's already effective.

Lets apply a soft cap to AP and DP.

Where as having AP as high as possible gives you raw numbers in damage, accuracy, and such, with a soft cap the gain decreases as you go higher.

This ONLY apply in PVP only. AP and DP will use raw numbers against PvE as usual, but in PVP it's soft capped.

Max raw value in PVP is 200. Soft cap applies afterwards in two stages:

Stage 1: For each 10 points past 200, you gain 5 points worth of AP/DP effectiveness (50% less gain).
Stage 2: For each 10 points past 300, you gain 1 points worth of AP/DP effectiveness (90% less gain).

Example:

Someone with 400 AP and DP in PVE, will be as effective as (200+50+10).
260 AP/DP in PVP = 400 AP/DP in PVE.

To get 400 AP/DP in PVP, you will need (200+50)+(1500 worth of total AP/DP) in PVE.

Yes that's right, to get 400 AP/DP in PVP, past 260 points you need 10 points for every 1 point gain, meaning you need 150 points, so 1500 points to gain that much.

Basically a idea similarly to Dark Souls, where the more stats you pump up, the more you need in order to maintain a certain level of gain.

Dark Souls allows you to raise stats to 99 points, but soft cap starts applying at 25 I think.
This means if you gain 50 HP per point, it gets reduced to 25 HP per point instead, after 40 or 50 points (haven't played DS for a long time), you gain so little.

This is still RPG, but it's a balanced system.

[Andante]

XenoAlbedo původně napsal:

Andante původně napsal:

Jesus christ, BDO veteran players joke that steam players are going to be carebear babies and you literally make us steam players a joke.

Because I'm voicing my opinion about one single topic despite enjoying literally every other aspect of the game?

You're a genius.

you honestly sound like an entitled baby craddled in the "everyone is a winner!" culture. I grew up with MMOs with open world pvp with full body loot where if someone 10x stronger than you killed you, you lose ALL your gear.

In BDO you literally lose nothing when killed in PVP, the only thing lost is a baby's safe space. Want to cry some more, let me know how the big bad PVPer hurt your feelings.

[Kai]

Andante původně napsal:

XenoAlbedo původně napsal:

Because I'm voicing my opinion about one single topic despite enjoying literally every other aspect of the game?

You're a genius.

you honestly sound like an entitled baby craddled in the "everyone is a winner!" culture. I grew up with MMOs with open world pvp with full body loot where if someone 10x stronger than you killed you, you lose ALL your gear.

In BDO you literally lose nothing when killed in PVP, the only thing lost is a baby's safe space. Want to cry some more, let me know how the big bad PVPer hurt your feelings.

I'd like to know the name of such MMOs, that has full body loot, that are apparently open world PVP...

By the way, games like DayZ and such aren't actually MMOs. MMOs in it's original definition are basically large scale games or servers that can fit thousands of players, it just shrank it's definition because game developers don't have the infrastructure to support things that massive these days due to larger networking usage.

And I believe games like Ultima online has some sort of alignment system to protect players too. Then again, that game is sorta like a Niche as mostly adults plays it, and today you don't see too many players of the newer generation bat an eyelid at those kinds of games often.

[Andante]

Darkfall had full body loot, hell even a kids game called runescape had full body loot. Eve basically has full body loot, played a little but the combat was not for me.

Eve is played mostly by mature adults unlike OP, a normal adult wouldn't get emotionally hurt just because his pixel avatar gets injured by a big bad pvper and loses nothing.

[Kai]

Andante původně napsal:

Darkfall had full body loot, hell even a kids game called runescape had full body loot. Eve basically has full body loot, played a little but the combat was not for me.

Eve is played mostly by mature adults unlike OP, a normal adult wouldn't get emotionally hurt just because his pixel avatar gets injured by a big bad pvper and loses nothing.

Runescape doesn't have open PVP unless you enter the wilderness, most of the gameplay doesn't technically require you to go there unless you want to do more optional stuff.

EVE is a sci-fi game, so you actually have clones and 'insurance' plans enabled to keep yourself from losing everything.

EVE also has different security sectors, so high security has NPC space police that protects you, low security has some other form of security like organized playerbase that defends other players. EVE also has a bounty system so PKers have to fear retribution from others.

In EVE online, the likelihood of a player being given offers to join a organization is very high, as factions wants more manpower to have advantages over others, so recruitment is high and you tend to be supported even if you are a newbie.

[Kai]

All we really need to balance open PVP is a soft cap system to reduce the effectiveness of extremely high stats, requiring a very steep level of effort to gain and maintain it. Soft capping player levels isn't sufficient. This makes end game effort focus much more on skill based combat, not instant skill spamming to see who wins with the first hit.

And a bounty mechanic that actually replaces the Karma system, where instead of a 'safe zone' and 'combat zone', you have different security zones similar to EVE online, where roads gets patrolled and a PK attempt on another player who can be hit, will be met with instant karma loss, if it happens in those zones. For instance Major cities are high security, with the outskirts and roads being low security. You instantly lose Karma if you attack someone in high sec, but only lose karma if 'someone' witnesses you like a NPC etc, in low sec.

And having guards of differing levels and power to combat PKers would be necessary, in fact using a wanted level system so PKers actually have to flee or more and more guards will spawn and run them down. Having Karma systems to punish rampant PKers is a must, not reward griefers and harassers.

[Andante]

Kai původně napsal:

All we really need to balance open PVP is a soft cap system to reduce the effectiveness of extremely high stats, requiring a very steep level of effort to gain and maintain it. Soft capping player levels isn't sufficient. This makes end game effort focus much more on skill based combat, not instant skill spamming to see who wins with the first hit.

And a bounty mechanic that actually replaces the Karma system, where instead of a 'safe zone' and 'combat zone', you have different security zones similar to EVE online, where roads gets patrolled and a PK attempt on another player who can be hit, will be met with instant karma loss, if it happens in those zones. For instance Major cities are high security, with the outskirts and roads being low security. You instantly lose Karma if you attack someone in high sec, but only lose karma if 'someone' witnesses you like a NPC etc, in low sec.

And having guards of differing levels and power to combat PKers would be necessary, in fact using a wanted level system so PKers actually have to flee or more and more guards will spawn and run them down. Having Karma systems to punish rampant PKers is a must, not reward griefers and harassers.

do you even play this game? going red in BDO is insanely discouraged... I really dont think you play this game and is just spouting out BS.

[Kai]

Andante původně napsal:

Kai původně napsal:

All we really need to balance open PVP is a soft cap system to reduce the effectiveness of extremely high stats, requiring a very steep level of effort to gain and maintain it. Soft capping player levels isn't sufficient. This makes end game effort focus much more on skill based combat, not instant skill spamming to see who wins with the first hit.

And a bounty mechanic that actually replaces the Karma system, where instead of a 'safe zone' and 'combat zone', you have different security zones similar to EVE online, where roads gets patrolled and a PK attempt on another player who can be hit, will be met with instant karma loss, if it happens in those zones. For instance Major cities are high security, with the outskirts and roads being low security. You instantly lose Karma if you attack someone in high sec, but only lose karma if 'someone' witnesses you like a NPC etc, in low sec.

And having guards of differing levels and power to combat PKers would be necessary, in fact using a wanted level system so PKers actually have to flee or more and more guards will spawn and run them down. Having Karma systems to punish rampant PKers is a must, not reward griefers and harassers.

do you even play this game? going red in BDO is insanely discouraged... I really dont think you play this game and is just spouting out BS.

I don't play the steam version.

And rather than cheap PVP mechanics, I'd rather see better PVP designs with better overall concepts, and people who defends cheap designs merely don't get the point.

Why do you think I said that cities could be high security and outskirts are low security? Because most farming areas are very far away from cities, but some PKers who do not heed the current punishment for going red doesn't care, they'll still do it...

Granted I also said guards don't need to one hit kill, they can provide some challenge to PKer as a mob, but they aren't a stupid mob and can spawn endlessly to deal with some PKers rampaging inside a city. Perhaps it would be interesting to see a PKer fight a NPC 'royal guard' and not run-of-the-mill halberd wielding militia who one hit kills.

As a sandbox concept, BDO is okay, but for the late game open PVP, that's where it falls flat.

[XenoAlbedo]

Andante původně napsal:

XenoAlbedo původně napsal:

Because I'm voicing my opinion about one single topic despite enjoying literally every other aspect of the game?

You're a genius.

you honestly sound like an entitled baby craddled in the "everyone is a winner!" culture. I grew up with MMOs with open world pvp with full body loot where if someone 10x stronger than you killed you, you lose ALL your gear.

In BDO you literally lose nothing when killed in PVP, the only thing lost is a baby's safe space. Want to cry some more, let me know how the big bad PVPer hurt your feelings.

What you personally grew up with holds no actual weight to the discussion at hand. I pointed out that I do not like how the current system in this particular game (not your other games) is designed and, after realizing that I was not remotely constructive, offered possible solutions. If you still classify this as entitled whining and crying, then I honestly don't know what to say.

[Ficelle]

The real problem of PvP in this game (in my opinion) is the way too high emphasis on gear and level.
A very mediocre player with 3+ more levels and better gear cant lose.

Also, the TTK is way too small, some seconds at most, entirely removing skills in favor of luck (first one to CC or hit)

If they changed the numbers to make it so that a good player, a bit underleveled and with lesser gear could still win with reasonnable chances against a mediocre one, it would be way better.


Most of the complains about PK and openPvP derivate from this.
You get killed by people who have no chance at all to lose and you cant do anything against them.
Carried by gear and level.

[Elric]

Ficelle původně napsal:

The real problem of PvP in this game (in my opinion) is the way too high emphasis on gear and level.
A very mediocre player with 3+ more levels and better gear cant lose.

Also, the TTK is way too small, some seconds at most, entirely removing skills in favor of luck (first one to CC or hit)

If they changed the numbers to make it so that a good player, a bit underleveled and with lesser gear could still win with reasonnable chances against a mediocre one, it would be way better.


Most of the complains about PK and openPvP derivate from this.
You get killed by people who have no chance at all to lose and you cant do anything against them.
Carried by gear and level.

Well it is an MMO, numbers and stats are everything