How Mediterranean towns grow?

[Double Irony Weeb]

Do they grow on their own? Do i have to sell them what they require or just keep buying is enough? They are only 1 star and their spice output is too low.

Edit: You have to sell goods to them. They don't grow if you send empty ships but stay at the same size. They also shrink if you don't trade at all for a while as far as i observed.

[swmackin]

The Mediterranean expeditions have been a disappoint in what is mostly a big improvement from Patrician 2/3. This is what they were like back then:
- There were a lot more towns to discover and visit
- You could visit 3 towns or spots per expedition
- There was a lot more trading with those towns, you also sent money with the expedition
- The expedition ships always returned in need of major repair. Sometimes they wouldn't return at all if you didn't have strong escort ships

[darkestkhan]

Originally posted by swmackin:

The Mediterranean expeditions have been a disappoint in what is mostly a big improvement from Patrician 2/3. This is what they were like back then:
- There were a lot more towns to discover and visit
- You could visit 3 towns or spots per expedition
- There was a lot more trading with those towns, you also sent money with the expedition
- The expedition ships always returned in need of major repair. Sometimes they wouldn't return at all if you didn't have strong escort ships

Much of the Patrician 2/3 is a big improvement over Patrician 4. Yes, you read it right - P3 is, generally, better. Especially at being what it is supposed to be about. P4 is more of a whack-a-pirate than a trade/economy simulator.

[Double Irony Weeb]

Originally posted by darkestkhan:

Originally posted by swmackin:

The Mediterranean expeditions have been a disappoint in what is mostly a big improvement from Patrician 2/3. This is what they were like back then:
- There were a lot more towns to discover and visit
- You could visit 3 towns or spots per expedition
- There was a lot more trading with those towns, you also sent money with the expedition
- The expedition ships always returned in need of major repair. Sometimes they wouldn't return at all if you didn't have strong escort ships

Much of the Patrician 2/3 is a big improvement over Patrician 4. Yes, you read it right - P3 is, generally, better. Especially at being what it is supposed to be about. P4 is more of a whack-a-pirate than a trade/economy simulator.

I disagree. Aside of combat related stuff, P4 is better with better ui, better trading options.

[darkestkhan]

Originally posted by Double Irony Weeb:

Originally posted by darkestkhan:

Much of the Patrician 2/3 is a big improvement over Patrician 4. Yes, you read it right - P3 is, generally, better. Especially at being what it is supposed to be about. P4 is more of a whack-a-pirate than a trade/economy simulator.

I disagree. Aside of combat related stuff, P4 is better with better ui, better trading options.

Better UI? I suppose so. Better trading options? That is just a matter of UI. Actual gameplay? P3 is better. It actually wouldn't take much to make P4 better, but the studio for some reason stopped and left the game in a bad state. It's telling that "mod sea battle" is standard procedure. Not because one wants easy sea battles, but because they are too frequent and take too long.

And don't get me started on AI merchants. If you solve the salt shortage then Stockholm will be in a permanent hemp shortage is quite ridiculous. Why doesn't AI build a few hemp farms? No idea, it just doesn't. It will happily build more smokehouses, as if that would help with anything.

[darkestkhan]

Originally posted by Double Irony Weeb:

Do they grow on their own? Do i have to sell them what they require or just keep buying is enough? They are only 1 star and their spice output is too low.

Back to OP, to grow them, you trade with them. Not only buy but also sell them what they need.

[Double Irony Weeb]

Originally posted by darkestkhan:

Originally posted by Double Irony Weeb:

I disagree. Aside of combat related stuff, P4 is better with better ui, better trading options.

Better UI? I suppose so. Better trading options? That is just a matter of UI. Actual gameplay? P3 is better. It actually wouldn't take much to make P4 better, but the studio for some reason stopped and left the game in a bad state. It's telling that "mod sea battle" is standard procedure. Not because one wants easy sea battles, but because they are too frequent and take too long.

And don't get me started on AI merchants. If you solve the salt shortage then Stockholm will be in a permanent hemp shortage is quite ridiculous. Why doesn't AI build a few hemp farms? No idea, it just doesn't. It will happily build more smokehouses, as if that would help with anything.

Ai being useless is a thing in both games. Patrician 3 or 4 isn't actually buy low sell high make profit game at least for the late game. Game evolves into logistics simulator where money becomes irrevelant and your aim is to satisfy as many citizens in as many cities as possible. That's the core gameplay.

Why trade is better in P4? Bigger ships, no need to search for a captain, more capable administrator.

I acknowledged P3 warfare is better. I'm not talking about it.

[darkestkhan]

Originally posted by Double Irony Weeb:

Originally posted by darkestkhan:

Better UI? I suppose so. Better trading options? That is just a matter of UI. Actual gameplay? P3 is better. It actually wouldn't take much to make P4 better, but the studio for some reason stopped and left the game in a bad state. It's telling that "mod sea battle" is standard procedure. Not because one wants easy sea battles, but because they are too frequent and take too long.

And don't get me started on AI merchants. If you solve the salt shortage then Stockholm will be in a permanent hemp shortage is quite ridiculous. Why doesn't AI build a few hemp farms? No idea, it just doesn't. It will happily build more smokehouses, as if that would help with anything.

Ai being useless is a thing in both games. Patrician 3 or 4 isn't actually buy low sell high make profit game at least for the late game. Game evolves into logistics simulator where money becomes irrevelant and your aim is to satisfy as many citizens in as many cities as possible. That's the core gameplay.

Why trade is better in P4? Bigger ships, no need to search for a captain, more capable administrator.

I acknowledged P3 warfare is better. I'm not talking about it.

In both games, there are many issues. I have a bunch of pet peeves with P4. One is that it's more of a "whack-a-pirate" game than anything else. It's annoying, and shouldn't be a part of the game. At least not to the degree it's right now. Main cities were a bad target for pirates (but small towns and villages are another story). I don't like being gated by ranks when it comes to building counting houses (as artificial limiter as it can get).

As for AI not being particularly good - I'm fine with that, as long as it's not very stupid. Which it is. Constant hunger, constant burned cities. Leave the game to its own devices and you will likely witness the entire Hanza falling apart from a combination of fire and hunger. From what I see Aalborg, London, Oslo, and Danzig are often eaten by fire, whilst Reval, Novgorod, Bruge, and Cologne die by hunger. The only source of meat in the early game, and 3 sources of construction materials. After that, it becomes a slippery slope of a collapsing house of cards.

Rostock never produces all the beer it should because it has no grain (it can grow grain, but AI has to be stupid), Stockholm has issues with hemp, whilst for whatever reason Novgorod attempts to make a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of furs whilst Riga could make it better due to being able to grow hemp. Why? I understand that starting setup is what it is, but the same guy owns all of Riga, Reval, and Novgorod. Move metal and wood from Reval to whatever place that makes tools and hemp, make salt in Novgorod, and move it to Stockholm to get fish, etc. There is no need for the East Baltic to starve - Visby and Stockholm make plenty of food.

Maybe if I played with random production the AI would be more capable, but I seriously doubt it. Highly skilled AI is not needed, it just shouldn't be outright stupid - and not building wells is plain stupid.

As for UI, the one we have in P4 is atrocious. The number of clicks you have to do, the hidden information that is not really hidden, just not displayed [*cough* daily consumption *cough*]. P3 UI was better here - it required fewer clicks because you had more drop-down menus.

[Double Irony Weeb]

Originally posted by darkestkhan:

Originally posted by Double Irony Weeb:

Ai being useless is a thing in both games. Patrician 3 or 4 isn't actually buy low sell high make profit game at least for the late game. Game evolves into logistics simulator where money becomes irrevelant and your aim is to satisfy as many citizens in as many cities as possible. That's the core gameplay.

Why trade is better in P4? Bigger ships, no need to search for a captain, more capable administrator.

I acknowledged P3 warfare is better. I'm not talking about it.

In both games, there are many issues. I have a bunch of pet peeves with P4. One is that it's more of a "whack-a-pirate" game than anything else. It's annoying, and shouldn't be a part of the game. At least not to the degree it's right now. Main cities were a bad target for pirates (but small towns and villages are another story). I don't like being gated by ranks when it comes to building counting houses (as artificial limiter as it can get).

As for AI not being particularly good - I'm fine with that, as long as it's not very stupid. Which it is. Constant hunger, constant burned cities. Leave the game to its own devices and you will likely witness the entire Hanza falling apart from a combination of fire and hunger. From what I see Aalborg, London, Oslo, and Danzig are often eaten by fire, whilst Reval, Novgorod, Bruge, and Cologne die by hunger. The only source of meat in the early game, and 3 sources of construction materials. After that, it becomes a slippery slope of a collapsing house of cards.

Rostock never produces all the beer it should because it has no grain (it can grow grain, but AI has to be stupid), Stockholm has issues with hemp, whilst for whatever reason Novgorod attempts to make a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of furs whilst Riga could make it better due to being able to grow hemp. Why? I understand that starting setup is what it is, but the same guy owns all of Riga, Reval, and Novgorod. Move metal and wood from Reval to whatever place that makes tools and hemp, make salt in Novgorod, and move it to Stockholm to get fish, etc. There is no need for the East Baltic to starve - Visby and Stockholm make plenty of food.

Maybe if I played with random production the AI would be more capable, but I seriously doubt it. Highly skilled AI is not needed, it just shouldn't be outright stupid - and not building wells is plain stupid.

As for UI, the one we have in P4 is atrocious. The number of clicks you have to do, the hidden information that is not really hidden, just not displayed [*cough* daily consumption *cough*]. P3 UI was better here - it required fewer clicks because you had more drop-down menus.

I never encountered fire in my play. A lot of plague and sieges but no fire.

Building 5 armed convoys and camping hideouts does the job for me but yea pirates are too much.

Daily consumption is displayed, what are you talking about? Right click on a city you have counting house in and click on list of goods. Or enter marketplace and click list of goods. That's it. It even gives you 10 day consumption insead of P3's 7 day so you can just decrease a digit to get daily. It's also same amount of clicks with P3 iirc. Also the fact P4 displaying trade route duration makes it singlehandedly better ui

Why do you care what ai does? Whatever ai do, you should't really care about it. Ai not producing enough? Who cares? Drop a counting house and produce yourself. You will also populate the city by doing so. If you are aiming to buy low from ai and sell high to cities, i really suggest stop doing it once you gain some capital to start building. It's completely obsolete when you start producing goods yourself.

[swmackin]

Originally posted by darkestkhan:

Originally posted by swmackin:

The Mediterranean expeditions have been a disappoint in what is mostly a big improvement from Patrician 2/3. This is what they were like back then:
- There were a lot more towns to discover and visit
- You could visit 3 towns or spots per expedition
- There was a lot more trading with those towns, you also sent money with the expedition
- The expedition ships always returned in need of major repair. Sometimes they wouldn't return at all if you didn't have strong escort ships

Much of the Patrician 2/3 is a big improvement over Patrician 4. Yes, you read it right - P3 is, generally, better. Especially at being what it is supposed to be about. P4 is more of a whack-a-pirate than a trade/economy simulator.

I was starting to feel that way too but the game just started to open up recently and it has me interested. I previously thought the land routes (other than Lubeck to Hamburg, which I use to bypass Denmark) were pointless but I recently connected Cologne to my Rostock land route. Now I realize there is more to it and I am trying to connect Cologne to Lubeck.

There is though a lot I don't like compared to P2/3 (along with expeditions):
- Novgorod is pointless, no reason to visit. It's too small and isolated
- Setting up thresholds for auto trade is too finicky. I think I have set the threshold one way only to find out much later it didn't change. Eventually I learned you have to click on the empty space after typing in a threshold, and before you exit the screen, or it will revert back to what it was
- The Hansa (in my game) insisted on increasing hemp production even though the market was flooded with it and it's available in many cities. I had 4 different cities offering money to increase Hemp production


The pirate stuff doesn't bother me as I am used to it with many hours playing Port Royale 2 years ago. Have 3 solid escort ships with every trade route and they usually leave you alone. Also, keep one convoy with 3 heavily armed Hulks for taking out pirates. If a city offers money to take out a pirate then take them out. Also take out pirates who are brave enough to attack your trade routes. Preferably right after they attack your trade route so you can steal back what they took.

Attacking pirate hideouts is also key as you make money, gain guild prestige and doing this reduces overall pirate activity for a while. You can keep pirates in check if you stay on top of them early.

[swmackin]

Originally posted by Double Irony Weeb:

I never encountered fire in my play. A lot of plague and sieges but no fire.

After I became mayor the old mayor started paying people to attack my businesses. One of the attacks was a fire. He will attack any city you have an Counting House in so be ready.

Originally posted by darkestkhan:

Originally posted by Double Irony Weeb:

Do they grow on their own? Do i have to sell them what they require or just keep buying is enough? They are only 1 star and their spice output is too low.

Back to OP, to grow them, you trade with them. Not only buy but also sell them what they need.

I just noticed this too :) I have two of the Mediterranean cities up to three stars now. Also realized to use small convoys, one or two ships, for expedition and do them often. Spices are a major profit generator. Buy them for 250 each on Expedition and sell them for over 900.

Setting up in London helps a lot with Expeditions. I keep two expedition convoys going out of London. One ship convoys at first, eventually increasing to two ships. Keep London stocked with pelts, metal goods and pitch. When the Expedition returns dump their cargo in London, reload with cargo and send them out again. Repair every third trip.

IMPORTANT, leave a third to half your cargo space empty in case you don't sell everything. This way you have still have room them to buy goods. Also try not to visit the same Mediterranean port twice in a row.

[darkestkhan]

Originally posted by swmackin:

Originally posted by darkestkhan:

Much of the Patrician 2/3 is a big improvement over Patrician 4. Yes, you read it right - P3 is, generally, better. Especially at being what it is supposed to be about. P4 is more of a whack-a-pirate than a trade/economy simulator.

I was starting to feel that way too but the game just started to open up recently and it has me interested. I previously thought the land routes (other than Lubeck to Hamburg, which I use to bypass Denmark) were pointless but I recently connected Cologne to my Rostock land route. Now I realize there is more to it and I am trying to connect Cologne to Lubeck.

There is though a lot I don't like compared to P2/3 (along with expeditions):
- Novgorod is pointless, no reason to visit. It's too small and isolated
- Setting up thresholds for auto trade is too finicky. I think I have set the threshold one way only to find out much later it didn't change. Eventually I learned you have to click on the empty space after typing in a threshold, and before you exit the screen, or it will revert back to what it was
- The Hansa (in my game) insisted on increasing hemp production even though the market was flooded with it and it's available in many cities. I had 4 different cities offering money to increase Hemp production


The pirate stuff doesn't bother me as I am used to it with many hours playing Port Royale 2 years ago. Have 3 solid escort ships with every trade route and they usually leave you alone. Also, keep one convoy with 3 heavily armed Hulks for taking out pirates. If a city offers money to take out a pirate then take them out. Also take out pirates who are brave enough to attack your trade routes. Preferably right after they attack your trade route so you can steal back what they took.

Attacking pirate hideouts is also key as you make money, gain guild prestige and doing this reduces overall pirate activity for a while. You can keep pirates in check if you stay on top of them early.

Novgorod is a great source of salt, but that is about it. It's all thanks to local wood production which greatly cuts down on logistics (remember: ships in convoys have base daily upkeep costs). I suppose you could also make mead there and leave Oslo for bricks and fish. Because it's a river city it's not good for bricks (which you need a lot of - crayers just won't cut it) outside of the very early game (Stockholm start?), and not good for furs either as it loses to Riga (local hemp - again, simplified logistics).

P4 is definitely more accessible than P3. It is worth noting that P3 also had overland routes.

[darkestkhan]

Originally posted by Double Irony Weeb:

Originally posted by darkestkhan:

In both games, there are many issues. I have a bunch of pet peeves with P4. One is that it's more of a "whack-a-pirate" game than anything else. It's annoying, and shouldn't be a part of the game. At least not to the degree it's right now. Main cities were a bad target for pirates (but small towns and villages are another story). I don't like being gated by ranks when it comes to building counting houses (as artificial limiter as it can get).

As for AI not being particularly good - I'm fine with that, as long as it's not very stupid. Which it is. Constant hunger, constant burned cities. Leave the game to its own devices and you will likely witness the entire Hanza falling apart from a combination of fire and hunger. From what I see Aalborg, London, Oslo, and Danzig are often eaten by fire, whilst Reval, Novgorod, Bruge, and Cologne die by hunger. The only source of meat in the early game, and 3 sources of construction materials. After that, it becomes a slippery slope of a collapsing house of cards.

Rostock never produces all the beer it should because it has no grain (it can grow grain, but AI has to be stupid), Stockholm has issues with hemp, whilst for whatever reason Novgorod attempts to make a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of furs whilst Riga could make it better due to being able to grow hemp. Why? I understand that starting setup is what it is, but the same guy owns all of Riga, Reval, and Novgorod. Move metal and wood from Reval to whatever place that makes tools and hemp, make salt in Novgorod, and move it to Stockholm to get fish, etc. There is no need for the East Baltic to starve - Visby and Stockholm make plenty of food.

Maybe if I played with random production the AI would be more capable, but I seriously doubt it. Highly skilled AI is not needed, it just shouldn't be outright stupid - and not building wells is plain stupid.

As for UI, the one we have in P4 is atrocious. The number of clicks you have to do, the hidden information that is not really hidden, just not displayed [*cough* daily consumption *cough*]. P3 UI was better here - it required fewer clicks because you had more drop-down menus.

I never encountered fire in my play. A lot of plague and sieges but no fire.

Building 5 armed convoys and camping hideouts does the job for me but yea pirates are too much.

Daily consumption is displayed, what are you talking about? Right click on a city you have counting house in and click on list of goods. Or enter marketplace and click list of goods. That's it. It even gives you 10 day consumption insead of P3's 7 day so you can just decrease a digit to get daily. It's also same amount of clicks with P3 iirc. Also the fact P4 displaying trade route duration makes it singlehandedly better ui

Why do you care what ai does? Whatever ai do, you should't really care about it. Ai not producing enough? Who cares? Drop a counting house and produce yourself. You will also populate the city by doing so. If you are aiming to buy low from ai and sell high to cities, i really suggest stop doing it once you gain some capital to start building. It's completely obsolete when you start producing goods yourself.

Daily consumption and production are *NOT* displayed. First, they are displayed only for the towns in which you are present, which begs the question of why. You can always check the population count of the city and production buildings it has [guild -> statistics -> production... too many clicks if you ask me]. This means that you have the information on consumption, but it's hidden for some strange reasons unless you are present there.

In addition, neither production nor consumption are displayed properly. Your buildings are not included in this data unless you want to tell me that 8 fully employed claypits make 24 bricks a day [4 of mine, 4 of AI].

I think you are confusing small UIX improvements with game improvements. You could have also made these small changes to P3 - make the consumption display based on 10 days, stop requiring captains for convoys, display the duration of the route, and a few other improvements here and there (especially price indicator for greater accessibility of the game), and the game would be way better than P4.

I also hate CTDs that happen in P4.

[swmackin]

Originally posted by darkestkhan:

Originally posted by swmackin:

I was starting to feel that way too but the game just started to open up recently and it has me interested. I previously thought the land routes (other than Lubeck to Hamburg, which I use to bypass Denmark) were pointless but I recently connected Cologne to my Rostock land route. Now I realize there is more to it and I am trying to connect Cologne to Lubeck.

There is though a lot I don't like compared to P2/3 (along with expeditions):
- Novgorod is pointless, no reason to visit. It's too small and isolated
- Setting up thresholds for auto trade is too finicky. I think I have set the threshold one way only to find out much later it didn't change. Eventually I learned you have to click on the empty space after typing in a threshold, and before you exit the screen, or it will revert back to what it was
- The Hansa (in my game) insisted on increasing hemp production even though the market was flooded with it and it's available in many cities. I had 4 different cities offering money to increase Hemp production


The pirate stuff doesn't bother me as I am used to it with many hours playing Port Royale 2 years ago. Have 3 solid escort ships with every trade route and they usually leave you alone. Also, keep one convoy with 3 heavily armed Hulks for taking out pirates. If a city offers money to take out a pirate then take them out. Also take out pirates who are brave enough to attack your trade routes. Preferably right after they attack your trade route so you can steal back what they took.

Attacking pirate hideouts is also key as you make money, gain guild prestige and doing this reduces overall pirate activity for a while. You can keep pirates in check if you stay on top of them early.

Novgorod is a great source of salt, but that is about it. It's all thanks to local wood production which greatly cuts down on logistics (remember: ships in convoys have base daily upkeep costs). I suppose you could also make mead there and leave Oslo for bricks and fish. Because it's a river city it's not good for bricks (which you need a lot of - crayers just won't cut it) outside of the very early game (Stockholm start?), and not good for furs either as it loses to Riga (local hemp - again, simplified logistics).

I finally figured out the benefit of keeping Novgorod alive. They produce more Pelts than Riga and Reval put together. Though you need to keep them supplied with metal goods and hemp, along with lots of food, to keep them going.

There is a similar situation with the other two starting river cities. Cologne produces more wine than the rest of Flanders put together and Thorn produces more pitch than the rest of Pomerania put together. Though Thorn does not produce enough wood for all the pitch they produce so you need to bring them lots of wood to keep pitch production going.

Eventually the goal is to make all the goods you need yourself, but that takes a long time to happen. Pelts have a great profit margin, even when you are buying them so keeping Novgorod alive in the early and mid game is beneficial.


I also found that fires only happen in cities with more than 3000 people. So starting games with an average town population with 2000 or 2500 gives you time to boost wood and brick production, making fires easier to deal with.

[darkestkhan]

Originally posted by swmackin:

Originally posted by darkestkhan:

Novgorod is a great source of salt, but that is about it. It's all thanks to local wood production which greatly cuts down on logistics (remember: ships in convoys have base daily upkeep costs). I suppose you could also make mead there and leave Oslo for bricks and fish. Because it's a river city it's not good for bricks (which you need a lot of - crayers just won't cut it) outside of the very early game (Stockholm start?), and not good for furs either as it loses to Riga (local hemp - again, simplified logistics).

I finally figured out the benefit of keeping Novgorod alive. They produce more Pelts than Riga and Reval put together. Though you need to keep them supplied with metal goods and hemp, along with lots of food, to keep them going.

There is a similar situation with the other two starting river cities. Cologne produces more wine than the rest of Flanders put together and Thorn produces more pitch than the rest of Pomerania put together. Though Thorn does not produce enough wood for all the pitch they produce so you need to bring them lots of wood to keep pitch production going.

Eventually the goal is to make all the goods you need yourself, but that takes a long time to happen. Pelts have a great profit margin, even when you are buying them so keeping Novgorod alive in the early and mid game is beneficial.


I also found that fires only happen in cities with more than 3000 people. So starting games with an average town population with 2000 or 2500 gives you time to boost wood and brick production, making fires easier to deal with.

It doesn't take long to overcome the initial production. One nice thing about Novgorod is that Reval is along the way - and you can get plenty of iron and wood from there. For metal goods. This easily turns into a nice and profitable loop of Novogorod > Reval > Wherever you make your metal goods and get hemp from.

[Double Irony Weeb]

Originally posted by swmackin:

Originally posted by darkestkhan:

Novgorod is a great source of salt, but that is about it. It's all thanks to local wood production which greatly cuts down on logistics (remember: ships in convoys have base daily upkeep costs). I suppose you could also make mead there and leave Oslo for bricks and fish. Because it's a river city it's not good for bricks (which you need a lot of - crayers just won't cut it) outside of the very early game (Stockholm start?), and not good for furs either as it loses to Riga (local hemp - again, simplified logistics).

I finally figured out the benefit of keeping Novgorod alive. They produce more Pelts than Riga and Reval put together. Though you need to keep them supplied with metal goods and hemp, along with lots of food, to keep them going.

There is a similar situation with the other two starting river cities. Cologne produces more wine than the rest of Flanders put together and Thorn produces more pitch than the rest of Pomerania put together. Though Thorn does not produce enough wood for all the pitch they produce so you need to bring them lots of wood to keep pitch production going.

Eventually the goal is to make all the goods you need yourself, but that takes a long time to happen. Pelts have a great profit margin, even when you are buying them so keeping Novgorod alive in the early and mid game is beneficial.


I also found that fires only happen in cities with more than 3000 people. So starting games with an average town population with 2000 or 2500 gives you time to boost wood and brick production, making fires easier to deal with.

Cities don't have production boosts. They all produce same per business. Ai production should not be your concern once you have a few hundred thousand gold

Novgorod produce salt which is required for fish and meat. And stockhold produce fish and hemp. Build salt production in novgorod and transport to stockholm.