Why do people call this game an "Hack and slash"?

[Metharius]

when it is a beat them all ?, a musou to be more precise.

in what world this game is similar to a diablo/PoE/torchlight/Marvel Heroes etc ?

[Schnittertm]

I don't know, but when I use an axe I Hack and Slash at the enemies.

Anyway, the lines between what is a Hack 'n Slash and what is a Beat 'em Up are at least somewhat blurry.

However, seeing that you are killing a lot of weak enemies with powerful abilities as in, say, Diablo 3, makes this game definitely more of a Hack 'n Slash than a Beat 'em Up.

The perspective, isometric or third person, do not have anything to do with the games classification.

[Metharius]

blurry? no they arent blurry, why do you guys use the litteral definition instead of the meaning conveyed ?

that mean that by your logic: any game were you kill enemy without guns is an hack and slash ?
that ALL multiplayer game are Moba because all multiplayer game happend to be a battle staged on an arena ...

you don t use litteral term Beat them all ... else ABSOLUTLY any game outside of puzzle game would be" beat them all" because .. you gotta beat them all.

it is really anoying (to say the least) to find people speaking about Bayonneta/Devil may cry/god of war/metal gear rising revengeance/ etc put next to diablo as if they were the same genre or similar in any way, when you are searching for hack and slash (many time simply define as the door-monster-treasure. genre)

there is not blurry definition here. hack and slash was and are still allways "diablo-like"
and beat them all ALWAYS was devil may cry-like (and berserk before DmC came and put the standard clear)

so yea i love musou, but its anoying to see musous a sub genre of beat them all in hack and slash recommendation mostly because there are SO much more beat them all than hack and slash out there.

please cathegorize your game correctly. if i wasn t looking for hack and slash i wouldn t be abble to find this game if i were looking for musou/beat them all
see how stupid this is ...

[gamer]

it's definitely a hack and slash in nature. games don't always have just one category, and subcategories don't take priority over the major categories they come from.

[Schnittertm]

First, the correct term is Beat 'em up, not 'beat them all'. Beat 'em ups are usually are focused around the protagonist(s) using martial arts and unarmed combat or makeshift weapons (e.g. baseball bats that can be picked up) to fight through the game until the end boss. Some of the most famous games in the Beat 'em up genre were the Final Fight and the Streets of Rage series. (see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_%27em_up)

Second, Hack and Slash games can be any games where you use melee weapons as the main means of defeating the enemy. This applies to the Diablo games as much as it applies to Devil may Cry, Dynasty Warriors, Darksiders (though that can also be termed action adventure or Metroidvania) or the venerable Golden Axe series. (see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack_and_slash)

Golden Axe is a good point to show how the line can be somewhat blurry, as in its time, it also has been termed as Beat 'em Up, even though it would more fit the Hack and Slash category, due to its melee weapon based combat.


Now let us look at Dragon Quest Heroes, besides Carver and Alena, which use gloves and martial arts to pummel their foes into submission, most other characters, as well as the main characters use mainly melee weapons to beat an impossibly large number of foes. Weapons range from sword and shield, to dual swords, to axes, two handed swords, whips, spears and other such killing implements.


Anyway, you might want to read up on the definitions of genres, as I believe you are wrong in your assumption.

[gamer]

the genres are in the gameplay style, not how things sound on paper...

[otakon17]

Beat'em Ups and Hack and Slash are pretty related, with combat heavy games. Just one focuses on weapons and stats while Beat'em Ups are usually more heavily skilled based(positioning, timing of moves, that sort of thing). They're pretty similar though.

[Metharius]

Schnittertm

to avoid confusion even if they are releated i use the correct and more old term beat them up when i speak about "the 2d version of a beat them all" (street of rage etc) but you are right. and that does not change my point: anygame is a beat them up if you take this litteraly.


>Second, Hack and Slash games can be any games where you use melee weapons as the main means of defeating the enemy.

that s where you are wrong, that's not a definition. because it cover absolutly any game not using gun²². if this is your definition then it s false because it do not serve its purpose as defining a genre:
you can t say that dragon age origin, Diablo, Bayonneta, C9, blade symphony or even [insert medieval-fantastic MMO] are similar and are from the same genre.

if the definition you use to define a genre fail to define something: it s false.

hack and slash are game with loot being predominant. its city=> dungeon => monster => loot
the aspect fo loot is everything.

in the "beat them all" like DmC its more about combo with a sub genre (musou) being about killing thousand of enemies. but, just like their predecessor "beat them up" loot is irrelevant as it is more about temporary/permanant powerup than gear or character building as a whole.
even for dynasty warrior who took some liberty: you gear just give you power up, not stats and you can t change your gear during a mission. but they created their own genra anyway with musous.


Hack and slash and beat them up/all are suppose to define a genre, NOT a gameplay style. therfore you should not use mindlessly a litteral definition like you normaly do when you define a gameplay type (FPS/TPS/RTS/ etc ...)


²²surely you wont say "but there is magic in thoses game" because .. DmC/bayonneta/ninja gaiden and even this game have magic too ... hell DmC have even gun...

[Schnittertm]

Well, let us look at a few examples what games other sources put in the hack and slash genre:

First Giant Bomb:

https://www.giantbomb.com/hack-and-slash/3015-469/games/

Well, lets see what is on that list:

* Bayonetta
* Monster Hunter
* Dynasty Warrior 8
* Path of Exile

And many others. Quite a diverse number of different games, wouldn't you say, yet they are all hack and slash, because you hack and slash with your melee weapons at the enemies. Okay, in some games you also have ranged weapons and magic spells, but the general focus is on action oriented, real-time melee combat. The very definition of a hack and slash game.

Loot is not a factor.

Next up, Game Retrospect:

http://gamesretrospect.com/2016/06/10-of-the-best-hack-and-slash-games/

Among others on the list:

* Darksider II
* Bayonetta
* Transformers Devastation
* Ninja Gaiden II

Slant.co weighs in with this:

https://www.slant.co/topics/2353/~hack-and-slash-pc-games

Examples from this list:

* Diablo III
* Nier: Automata
* The Witcher 3
* Dark Souls III
* Path of Exile
* For Honor


Not all of them have a loot system and loot isn't what defines a hack and slash. Defeating or killing a lot of enemies with melee weapons and other archaic or occult means is. This can be achieved in many sub-genres of games like, for instance, action RPGs like Diablo I-III or Path of Exile, in Brawlers like Bayonetta or God of War, in side scrolling Beat 'em Ups like Golden Axe or in Musou games like Dynasty Warriors or, well, Dragon Quest Heroes 1 and 2.


However, if killing lots of enemies for better loot is your definition of hack and slash, then DQH 2 might still qualify, as you have to kill enemies to get better accessories, kill enemies to loot enough ingredients to upgrade said accessories, kill enemies to get would-be weapons, which, upon being identified by the weapons merchant, turn into a random über weapon with up to three random stats. Oh, and then there are the Ace of Spoils, accessories with random stats and effects. So, you see, if you see it from that angle, then DQH 2 is very definitely a hack and slash. It certainly follows your outline of City => Dungeon => Monster => Loot.

Historically, hack 'n slash was used for Dungeons and Dragons (the pen and paper version) campaigns that had a lot of combat and little to no story progression in them (the mark of a bad Dungeon Master if it happen often). Loot didn't truly factor into that, it was just a term for a boring bout of killing lots of monsters.

Once video games were established in households gamers and magazine journalists picked up the term for games with lots of melee combat and little or simple stories. Possibly because you mainly do a lot of hacking and slashing. From there it started to encompass more and more games from other genres.

Genres in themselves, however, are often quite broad terms. RPG is one such term, it can apply to CRPG, JRPG, ARPG, games with large RPG elements. Shooter, again, is a broad term and can be applied to several games with shooting in them, both first person and third person. Even Deus Ex is, in essence a shooter, though with heavy story and role playing elements. Simulation is another such term. Most often it is used to refer to full on simulation of as many systems as is possible with the limits of the systems at the time. However, it is also applied to arcade simulations that are less realistic, yet still a simulation. If you were to go by the actual definition of the word, then most games would, in fact, classify as simulation.



But to come to an end, DQH 2 is also a hack and slash, it is also a JRPG, it is also a grinder, it is a mix of all those things.

If genres were so clear cut, then we wouldn't need several tags to describe a game, especially since games started to mix up genres on a regular basis.

[lPaladinl]

It's a hack n' slash because majority of the gameplay is built around hacking and slashing up many fodder enemies.

Musou would be a more accurate description of the genre, even though that is the name of a specific game franchise. But it shouldn't be surprising that this game can be considered hack n' slash as well. Musou games can be considered Hack n' Slash.

[Hasioorr]

Metharius eredeti hozzászólása:

Schnittertm

if the definition you use to define a genre fail to define something: it s false.

hack and slash are game with loot being predominant. its city=> dungeon => monster => loot
the aspect fo loot is everything.
...
Hack and slash and beat them up/all are suppose to define a genre, NOT a gameplay style.
...

If it's not about gameplay style and the aspect fo loot is everything then why not redefine Diablo/PoE games as Dungeon Looter?