Anything that explains why the AI doesn't attack you?

[The nubinator]

I got AI war 1 the full collection long ago and trying to learn it now.
I like the idea of fighting a superior enemy that never really relents until it's beaten. Reminds me of a custom scenario in Heroes of Might and Magic 3 where the AI would get huge bonuses to production creating a never ending wave of enemies that you had to fight through to beat, instead of the usual progression where you just got stronger and stronger and the game got easier the more you played the same scenario.


But one thing just bothers me on a fundamental level.

So the AI was created by US And it destroyed almost all of humanity except our little outpost. IS that basically the story? And then it stops for some reason, cause we're what, so irrelevant to it that we're like ants? It never scouts?


Granted the other theory layed out is that this is all part of the AIs plan to unite humanity and that it is still altruistic.

But even though it makes some sense for gameplay purposes I just can't reconcile myself with this. Since it has no other enemies, what is it making offensive weapons for? And after the first few attacks, why doesn't it react? Even if you attack it, if the threat level isn't high enough it won't actively seek you out.


Maybe these are all just stupid questions. Im thinking of buying Ai War 2 for the UI improvements but I just feel that you're basically trying to find ways to game a fake representation of AI rather than be playing a representation of a true AI if that makes sense.

[Strategic Sage]

It does have other enemies. It has other enemies far worse than humanity. They are outside of the galaxy. What the AI has in the Milky Way are essentially a backwater garrison.

The AI does still attack you - waves, threat, etc. - but it's primary forces are elsewhere.

[The nubinator]

Oh so there's more to find out while playing the game I guess? = )
But there is no real story campaign, is there? Everything is based on a random galaxy generator with various options?

Anyway I just feel it's weird. I've just finnished the tutorial of the first game and opened a scenario/campaign for the first time but ive watched some videos before that and just weird to see this guy for example attack a cluster of AIs and the other clusters don't respond and things like this, they just snipe.

Until the threat level is high of course but it's almost like a caricature of a bad guy in a movie, talks ♥♥♥♥ and plays with the food too long until the "good guy"/food kills him.


Maybe this isnt the norm= https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib1gPJ_LWoE

Check it out, the Ai clusters where he is attacking are simply not moving.

[Strategic Sage]

In terms of the story, that depends on what you have active while playing. Assuming here that you are talking about only Classic and not AI War 2, there are a number of expansions that have alternate victory conditions, and there's also a text crawl on the opening screen for the backstory. So whether or not you have those expansions active in the game (Spire, Exodian Blade, Champions, etc.) determines how much is 'story' and how much is base gameplay.

There's quite a bit going on in that video, could you be more specific about where and when/what you mean by the 'AI Clusters not moving'? That's from an older version of the game - crystal didn't even exist for the last few DLC for example - and there are some strange things going on in it. I would highly recommend *not* operating at a constant energy deficit like they did as one example - but I'm not really sure what you are specifically referring to.

[The nubinator]

On min 5 "there's 6 group of guys" those 6 groups dont go for him.


is there a good youtube series youd recommend as representative of the game in general?

If not for AI War 1 then 2?

[Strategic Sage]

On the gameplay side, those groups of ships are guards. They stay by what they are guarding until something directly threatens it. Once something does, they are released as threat and can attack humanity wherever. I can see why you might ask why they don't attack anything that comes into their system ... but then that could leave the valuable targets they defended unguarded, and leave them more open to feints, flanking maneuvers, etc. It would be better in some situations, but worse in others. There are various types of forces the AI fields, each with different responsibilities, roles, etc.

In terms of video series, up-front caveat that what I'm going to link here is from my channel. It's hard to give a recommendation because there are so many options in AI War as I mentioned that no one setup is going to show you more than a small part of the game. Having said that, best overall might be one on relatively default difficulty with minimal extras. If you find these either too basic or two involved, I have beginner-level walkthroughs for both games and also higher-level series with more optionals on. The AI War 2 series are almost all linked in the pinned videos thread in this forum.

AI War Classic - Vanilla Standard - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWPhJvJ0SSDvGQLykbBI5JqljWjl9cUw2

AI War 2 - The Real War Begins - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWPhJvJ0SSDuhMgnYMNDvlgMZblcamGIP

The AI War 2 is of better quality, particularly since I had a better microphone by that time, but those are what I'd recommend.

A longer, all-in-one tutorial by Nuc Temeron is here for Classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kcAc0D5-R4&t=0s It is extremely well done, but also throws a lot at a new player with some of the enabled options. All depends on how much you're interested in taking on at once.

[The nubinator]

Cool. Thanks.

Good video in general. The only thing I question is that you remove the AI timer for aggression/threat levels/what ever its called (Auto progression, see min 5.30). As this is my primary complaint (the whole thread is about it), i.e. your ability to manipulate when and how the A.I. reacts to you instead of it, being an A.I. deciding that for itself I feel that using 0 is probably not something I'd like to do.

Why do you recommend this? Is it just cause its the first game?
If you as a veteran player play with this with 0, why do you do that?

Are there disadvantages with waiting too long, thus it balances itself out anyway? (AI growing exponentially more strong?)

[Strategic Sage]

I think you're talking about the last video? That one isn't by me. That's by Nuc Temeron. The first two playlists are by me, and I used the standard 1 per 5 mins in the Vanilla Standard run.

I can say that most players remove auto-AIP progression because they don't like the time pressure it brings with it. It was unpopular enough that the feature was removed entirely for the sequel. I will also say that manipulating the AI response is a large part of what the game is about. If you find that thematic element to be something that just makes you not enjoy the games, they probably aren't going to be for you. I.e. AIP is a huge, huge factor and there's a direct AIP cost to taking over planets and performing some other actions; you choose whether or not to do these things.

That is again based on the comparison between the threat humanity poses and the issues outside the galaxy the AI is dealing with. That's a central element to the theme of both of them so ultimately it's something you either accept or don't - I'm not telling you not to play the games, I think they are very good, but just warning you that to the degree that's an issue for you, it's not one that is going to go away. The scale of what the AI does against you is based largely on the AIP ... and as far as that goes, you can get the same effect by changing the difficulty but leaving the auto-AIP off or whatever so to an extent you're always going to be manipulating/defining the AI response no matter what. I also don't think this is fundamentally different from what any strategy game ultimately is - i.e. there are always triggers, actions you can take to affect what the enemy does.

There are disadvantages to waiting too long - the AI gradually gets reinforcements over time - but these generally will not be as significant as the auto-AIP progression.

[The nubinator]

Yeah; I think that's the one thing that bothers me. Or at least what has bothered me in other games.


At one extreme you have people who will beat games at the absolute hardest settings using every exploit they can imagine and be happy and content with that.

I'm on the other end of the spectrum usually, often times handicapping myself intentionally if I feel one strategy takes advantage of the computer opponents faults of weaknesses too much.

And so having that as a mechanic to the game is kinda bothering me.

I don't even like the concept of auto-AIP progression.
In my very limited experience what this game is lacking is a pro-active AI. At least on the the grand strategic level.

You say that there is something else the AI is focused on story wise and that's fine but apparently it will react if you piss it off enough. What it should do though is try and figure out when or if you're about to become a threat before you do become one.

If I'm to go off on a tangent I feel that this may be the issue I have with some Sci-fi books and movies about A.I. opponents too, they feel way too human in a sense. I doubt that an A.I. that knows our history and has enslaved/domesticated/destroyed human planets elsewhere would just let a new human empire grow on its peripheries.
edit: Thus maybe a stealth/cloak mechanic on the strategic level would be necessary and without it the timer makes sense for gameplay reasons at least. Playing without it though, probably would feel alient to me.

Also just to clarify, obviously if you attack the A.I. it's reaction to you should grow, whether that's represented visually as a numerical value in the game or not.


And anyway, it's going to be fun I imagine, playing a game where I have act and react in the opposite way I would usually. I.e. I have to exploit the "A.I.". I guess I'm ok with it in other ways. Just feels weird that one type of "exploitation" is an intended mechanic, lol.

edit 2: I guess I'm not getting the sequel then :P

[Strategic Sage]

The way I would think about it is that it's a typical RTS turned on its head. Normally you expand and take territory and resources away from the enermy. You get stronger as they get weaker, and at the end it's just mop-up. AI War has the opposite. It gets harder as you go and most dangerous part can be the end, esp. in Classic. Ultimately if the AI devoted as much as it could to the MIlky Way galaxy, it simply wipes out humanity, there is no game, and then loses to the other threats so ... there's nothing there to even try to make a game out of.

Regarding your top concerns, nobody has, and nobody ever will, beat Classic on the hardest possible settings. It's possible to set things to way beyond impossible. So whatever your skill level is, you can set the game resistance to approximately match it.

You're not wrong about it being reactive as opposed to pro-active - that goes back to the whole insect analogy. I.e., how proactive would you really be about a single ant? You stomp it and go back to what you were doing unless you see a whole bunch of them.

[The nubinator]

Yeah well, any game can be made impossible by throwing resources at it the computer opponent and changing the parameters of the contest to ever more absurd levels. From what I understand the intended difficulty peaks at 8 with the A.I. then playing to the best of its capability within the framework you've set.


I don't think it can consider humans as an ant and if it does that's precisely the problem! Considering we're able to attack it and considering it has some sense of self-preservation and knows our capacity since before it should at least at the very least be pro active in monitoring us.

The mechanic of lowering AIP by destroying data centers is interesting. It would explain part of it by suggesting that the A.I. has databanks with compartemantalized knowledge that somehow feed into its central decision making process and by destroying one of these that part is lost, thus its ability to understand our threat is lost.

I could say that a good A.I. would be making copies of those databanks. But it's still a nice addition.

But not much makes sense in the end.
Again, why does t he A.I. wipe out humanity to begin with only to let it grow into a powerful empire?

If the A.I. is passive without humanity acting against it, why is there an A.I. war?


So the puzzle is not complete. If the A.I. is what we would term aggressive and malevolent it should be pro-actively attacking us and our threat level should rise the stronger we get.

If it's not it should still know our history and should be pro-actively scouting us and on the first attack it should react based on its full knowledge of our capacity not the sum of our recent actions.



So again, it's like the exploit has become the mechanic , which is a bit sad because I think that this paradox of having this explot as a mechanic vs having a game at all could have been resolved with a stealth mechanic where a large part of the game is tricking the AI into thinking that you aren't as big and strong as you are.

Indeed the only thing that makes sense, going back to my OP is that the A.I. is altruistic and doing this because it realizes we unite when we have an external enemy. And so it gives us a chance to beat it, in a similar way as the A.I. in the Matrix does (though there, it does not intend us to win!).

[The nubinator]

Apparently there is an AI type that might suit me (and anyone else who thinks like this)!

Vengeful

"Doesn't take criticism well" lol.

Retaliates for any attack. I assume even if AIP is low.


Gonna try a serious game, probably gonna get rekked. Level 6 AI with Vengence and a Level 7 Turtle, giving me the two extremes of the AIs, beginner script meaning 1 AIP every 30 minutes, probably very little. Yay wish me luck

[Strategic Sage]

"but not much makes sense in the end.
Again, why does t he A.I. wipe out humanity to begin with only to let it grow into a powerful empire?

If the A.I. is passive without humanity acting against it, why is there an A.I. war?"

Good luck. I do think these make sense just fine when you consider the threat outside the galaxy and the fact that the AIs priorities dramatically changed when it became aware of that. I also don't think that the 'stealth' mechanic you describe would end up with a significantly different situation, but it sort of is what it is at this point.

[smidlee]

Our galaxy has already been conquered. It's near impossible to totally wipe out human beings or a race. Thinking about WW2 where the Germans had trouble with civilians fighting back in territory they already conquered. Sometimes they had pull troops off of the front line to deal with the resistance.
Think of Data Centers at where intel is gathered about any threat of resistance. By knocking out these centers is less information get back to the AI overlords.
The threat is the local forces trying to put down the resistance. The AIP represent how much attention the resistance is gaining at top. Until the AIP get too high the Overlords battling on the front line assumes the local forces it left behind are enough to deal with any resistance.

There is a mod for AI War 2 where you can add AIP increase timer. This is just another way to increase the difficulty.
For example instead of increase the AI difficulty to 8 or 9 where you need to keep the AIP as low as possible with the AIP increase timer you can instead play a lower difficulty AI that get less reinforcements but at higher mark levels since the AIP will be higher. For example I'm trying out a game with difficulty 5 AI with AIP increasing 50 AIP per 15 minutes.
There are factions (scourge) that adds time pressure without using a timer. Scourge set to 5 will likely be more of a threat than diff7 AI.

[The nubinator]

Noice. Gonna try out those if I get Ai War 2

I'd just like to add that the idea for a stealth mechanic and a pro active AI wouldn't be that just the same. In my head you'd have to for example actively intercept scouts, perhaps actively migrate, things like this.


Also got one question, is there anything negative with just booming and building as many buildings as possible? Since they don't consume that much energy, some of them not at all, and metal is only consumed during construction?

[Strategic Sage]

You will at a certain point run out of energy. How much of a concern that is depends on what kind of a game you have set up, but as you acquire more turrets, ships, etc. you will run out eventually and have to prioritize.