Should the Jagdpanzer IV and Jagdpanther really be a AT unit?

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

This is going to get into the confusing world of Nazi interservice rivalries and tricking their leaders with weapon classifications but basically vehicles like the STuG, Jagdpanzer IV and Jagdpanther were designed to be cheaper alternatives to turretted tanks that could also fit larger guns, By 1944 most Nazi armored divisions had extremely large AT battalions that were basically used as cheaper alternatives to proper tanks. and since the STuG is classed as a tank i don't really see why the Jagdpanzers should be considered AT weapons.

[AEG.CROSSXFIRES.TTV]

for game balance purposes most likely.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by RSTV.Gaming:

for game balance purposes most likely.

The Germans already have a huge range of tank destroyers like the Marders though. A much larger and diverse selection than M10 and M10 with a different gun that the allies get.

[acur1231]

No. The Jagdpanther and Jagdpanzer IV were both intended to be tank hunters and killers from the get go. The Stug was the one that became a tank stand-in.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by acur1231:

No. The Jagdpanther and Jagdpanzer IV were both intended to be tank hunters and killers from the get go. The Stug was the one that became a tank stand-in.

They were all designed as tank stand ins. The Hetzer was originally going to be the STuG 38(t). Basically interservice rivalries created a system where infantry got assault guns and panzer units got the jagdpanzers. So when the Panzer Corps needed more tanks they just redesignated a assault gun for the infantry to the jagdpanzer for the armor corps. Wikipedia sort of tracks the sillyness of these designs but basically. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerj%C3%A4ger Panzerjagers are mobile AT guns aka Tank destroyers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdpanzer Jagdpanzer are ersatz tanks for the panzer corps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmgesch%C3%BCtz and STuG are ersatz tanks for the Infantry corps. It's just a weird interservice rivalry thing since the leaders of the panzer corps refused to be used for infantry support, Unless of course they were Panzergrenadiers.

[TankinatorXD]

A Sturmgeschütz is a Tank dedicated to close range infantry support.
A Jagdpanzer is a Tank dedicated to Destroying Tanks.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by TankinatorXD:

A Sturmgeschütz is a Tank dedicated to close range infantry support.
A Jagdpanzer is a Tank dedicated to Destroying Tanks.

As i already explained it was an economic descision mixed with in fighting that created the distinction rather than a doctrinal difference. For comparison you should look at how the Soviet Union didn't produce any tank destroyers, Instead designating all of their turrettless assault guns as assault guns called "Samokhodnaya Ustanovka"

[TankinatorXD]

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

Originally posted by TankinatorXD:

A Sturmgeschütz is a Tank dedicated to close range infantry support.
A Jagdpanzer is a Tank dedicated to Destroying Tanks.

As i already explained it was an economic descision mixed with in fighting that created the distinction rather than a doctrinal difference. For comparison you should look at how the Soviet Union didn't produce any tank destroyers, Instead designating all of their turrettless assault guns as assault guns called "Samokhodnaya Ustanovka"

Troling?

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by TankinatorXD:

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

As i already explained it was an economic descision mixed with in fighting that created the distinction rather than a doctrinal difference. For comparison you should look at how the Soviet Union didn't produce any tank destroyers, Instead designating all of their turrettless assault guns as assault guns called "Samokhodnaya Ustanovka"

Troling?

Really dude? I'm quite serious. The Jagdpanzers and STuG were functionally interchangable in terms of doctrine. By your logic the StuG should have been replaced with the StuH 42, Sturm-Infanteriegeschütz or even the early StuG variants with the KwK37 be a better choice than the STuG Ausf. G with its anti tank gun? The STuG may have started out as an Assault Gun, But at the same time so did the Hetzer. It was simply an issue with interservice rivalry.

[X-Wing]

The StuG was an assault gun to support the infantry built from 1937. His cannon was an artillery cannon. The Hetzer was a "jagdpanzer", a "huntertank" like Marder, Nashorn/Hornisse, Elephant, Jagdpanzer IV, jagdpanther, jadgtiger.....Their mission was kill tanks something that the StuG didn´t do very well. In fact, in the combats inside the cities in Soviet Union, the StuG failed to destroy fortification points. For these reason the germans developed the Brummbär, with panzer IV chasis.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by X-Wing:

The StuG was an assault gun to support the infantry built from 1937. His cannon was an artillery cannon. The Hetzer was a "jagdpanzer", a "huntertank" like Marder, Nashorn/Hornisse, Elephant, Jagdpanzer IV, jagdpanther, jadgtiger.....Their mission was kill tanks something that the StuG didn´t do very well. In fact, in the combats inside the cities in Soviet Union, the StuG failed to destroy fortification points. For these reason the germans developed the Brummbär, with panzer IV chasis.

The Hetzer, jagdpanzer IV, Panzer IV and STuG all used the same gun with slightly different mounts dude. If the STuG was so terrible at everything why was it the most produced AFV in the Nazi arsenal during ww2?

[X-Wing]

The StuG was the most built assault gun, yes, 10.000, to support the infantry divisions in the moment of german expansion (1939-1942) after this the germans built another vehicles very good in defensive positions and for destroy tanks. The times of blitzkrieg went out. But The StuG was very cheaper to build, more than a tank. The same was with Marder, for example, or Hetzer, but this vehicle arrived very late. A real tank for the germans was very expensive. One Tiger I cost the same that three M-109 fighter plane, for example.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by X-Wing:

The StuG was the most built assault gun, yes, 10.000, to support the infantry divisions in the moment of german expansion (1939-1942) after this the germans built another vehicles very good in defensive positions and for destroy tanks. The times of blitzkrieg went out. But The StuG was very cheaper to build, more than a tank. The same was with Marder, for example, or Hetzer, but this vehicle arrived very late. A real tank for the germans was very expensive. One Tiger I cost the same that three M-109 fighter plane, for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_armored_fighting_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II#Panzer_III out of the 11,776 STuG vehicles built only 800 of them were built before 1943 dude. And they were originally built to put the KwK37 from the Panzer IV onto a package that was cheaper and the Panzerwaffe wouldn't oppose the infantry being armed with. But that was only 825 vehicles before the introduction of the StuK 40 armed STuG, Which it's no accident was around the exact same time The Panzer IV was modified with the KwK 40.

Also it wasn't so much a cost issue as the Panzer III couldn't be used to support a KwK40 turret. The same could be said for the Panzer 38(t) and later the Panzer IV couldn't support the KwK42 in a turret which resulted in the development of the Jagdpanzer IV/70 and the Jagdpanther or Elefant with its KwK43 or finally the Jagdtiger with the PaK44. Also it's much faster to use the same factory to produce the same design slightly modified than to retool it to produce an entirely new vehicle.

Anyway it came to bite the Panzerwaffe in the ass when they decided they loved the STuG but couldn't get any for themselves because assault guns went to the artillery branch.

[X-Wing]

Yeah, exactly, the StuG III Ausf. G. Were built 7.000 units only of this model from 1943 with Stuk 40 L/48. Another thing was the production of StuG IV.

About the factories, the german military production was a complety chaos. When Heinz Guderian was chosen Inspector of Panzerwaffe the production was more efficient about vehicles, amunitions, etc. In fact, the development of the Jagdpanzer IV was an idea of Guderian himself.
But the backbone of german panzers were the Panzer IV like a tank (without count another vehicles that used chasis of panzer IV). In this case the Panzer III as a tank was less built than the Panzer IV.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by X-Wing:

Yeah, exactly, the StuG III Ausf. G. Were built 7.000 units only of this model from 1943 with Stuk 40 L/48. Another thing was the production of StuG IV.

About the factories, the german military production was a complety chaos. When Heinz Guderian was chosen Inspector of Panzerwaffe the production was more efficient about vehicles, amunitions, etc. In fact, the development of the Jagdpanzer IV was an idea of Guderian himself.
But the backbone of german panzers were the Panzer IV like a tank (without count another vehicles that used chasis of panzer IV). In this case the Panzer III as a tank was less built than the Panzer IV.

For exact numbers i think about half of the strength of a Panzer division around '44-'45 would have been jagdpanzers or STuG. Wheras the other half would be Panzers.

[acur1231]

Originally posted by X-Wing:

The StuG was the most built assault gun, yes, 10.000, to support the infantry divisions in the moment of german expansion (1939-1942) after this the germans built another vehicles very good in defensive positions and for destroy tanks. The times of blitzkrieg went out. But The StuG was very cheaper to build, more than a tank. The same was with Marder, for example, or Hetzer, but this vehicle arrived very late. A real tank for the germans was very expensive. One Tiger I cost the same that three M-109 fighter plane, for example.

What? Just because the guns are the same caliber does not make them identical. The Hetzer and Jagdpanzer IV had longer 75mm guns.

And no, the Jagdpanther and Hetzer and the lot of them were not tank stand-ins, and were formed into AT units, not used to fill depleted tank units.