What exactly is the SS?

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

I was discussing this yesterday and i've got 3 theories so far about how the SS actually functioned.

1. They were modeled off the Napoleonic Gaurds. I think this one is most likely since the 1. SS Panzer is considered the old guard and the 12. SS Panzer the young guard.

2. They were like luftwaffe field divisions but for Nazi Party staff. This one seems pretty likely since they were part of the Nazi Party technically but organized under command of the Wehrmacht.

3. They were like Ostlegionen, formations for people outside of Germany but made up of the "Germanic" people instead. This would explain why they have divisions made up of SS- volksdeutsche which would be considered germanizable people and then Panzergrenadiers who would be the ethnic germans. (Actual Germans loved the Nazis since they were given stuff stolen from their neighbors after the Nazis occupied their country) This one seems reasonable too.

4. They were some redundant formation created because of the dumb political situation in nazi Germany that operated as a 2nd Heer. I guess this kinda groups in with all 3 of these points so i don't consider it unique really.

Any credible input would be helpful. I'm tired of trolls so if you start posting in here i'm just going to report you.

From what i've researched the 1. SS Panzer, 12. SS Panzer and 17. SS PanzerGrenadier all seem to be low quality units Steel Division 2 will apparently have the 3. SS Panzer which was a police unit and 5. SS which was a panzer unit made up of conscripts from Sweden.

[✠Cherrybomb✠]

WTF!? The Schutzstaffel (Security Squadron) was formerly the body guard unit of Adolf Hitler. They expandeds drasticially under Heinrich Himmler and little groups fought at the beginning of the war alongside the Wehrmacht. As the war countinues they expanded with new divisions of true Germans, Volksdeutsche (German populations outside the Reich) and volunteers of other countries.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by ✠Cherrybomb✠:

WTF!? The Schutzstaffel (Security Squadron) was formerly the body guard unit of Adolf Hitler. They expandeds drasticially under Heinrich Himmler and little groups fought at the beginning of the war alongside the Wehrmacht. As the war countinues they expanded with new divisions of true Germans, Volksdeutsche (German populations outside the Reich) and volunteers of other countries.

So they're number 2 and number 1? Since they were bodyguards for the Nazi Party leader turned into frotnline units. Kinda like the Guards Armored?

Also i think the volksdeutsche weren't volunteers. They said most of the manpower was conscripts.

[Chief Berto]

Tinc- Yes. The SS was a mix of all those things. It isn't simply black and white but something that was made up of several things and evolved continuously throughout the conflict.

You couldnt say the SS were all elite or that they were all conscript/2nd line troops.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Chief Berto:

Tinc- Yes. The SS was a mix of all those things. It isn't simply black and white but something that was made up of several things and evolved continuously throughout the conflict.

You couldnt say the SS were all elite or that they were all conscript/2nd line troops.

What elite SS formations were there? Did they have volksgrenadiers?

[InfamousGuava]

Originally posted by Teen Male Sleuth:

Originally posted by Chief Berto:

Tinc- Yes. The SS was a mix of all those things. It isn't simply black and white but something that was made up of several things and evolved continuously throughout the conflict.

You couldnt say the SS were all elite or that they were all conscript/2nd line troops.

What elite SS formations were there? Did they have volksgrenadiers?

500th SS-Fallschirmjäger-Bataillon. It was a Fallschirmjäger unit made mostly of criminals from other Waffen-SS units. They were involved in "Unternehmen Rösselsprung" with the objective to kill or capture Josip Broz Tito.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Messerschmitt BF-109 G-10:

Originally posted by Teen Male Sleuth:

What elite SS formations were there? Did they have volksgrenadiers?

500th SS-Fallschirmjäger-Bataillon. It was a Fallschirmjäger unit made mostly of criminals from other Waffen-SS units. They were involved in "Unternehmen Rösselsprung" with the objective to kill or capture Josip Broz Tito.

So they were Bewährungstruppen like the 36. Waffen? afaik those units weren't elite. Generally they were used for the first wave in assaults.

[Chief Berto]

Well even that isn't a black and white answer. Some divisions had campaigns where they were elite but afterwards couldn't maintain that level. Some units weren't very good at first but grew into being more. The war was so long and the fighting continuous that it's best to look at individual campaigns or seasons a unit fought in and judge that instead of a particular unit name from the whole war.

There's also the question of how we want to define elite: is it training, equipment, structure, veterancy, combat record? On June 4, 1944 would you say that the 101st wasn't elite but the 82nd AB was? Or even before any combat was the 101st elite? Then the British 7th Armor would have been considered elite before normandy with its outstanding combat record, but then during normandy it wouldn't perform very well. So what's that mean?

And what is the standard for being elite? I'd consider the 1st ID an elite American infantry division, but they weren't elite the same way that say the SAS units were. So I think there's just alot of variables to look at to be able to judge.

As far as which SS divisions were elite (what a loaded question), I'd start by saying that most of the SS panzer divisions had moments of being elite during the war. The structure of SS panzer divisions gave them additional size and strength (on paper, clearly this was increasingly rare as the war continued) and the internal politics of the Reich enabled these divisions to often get priority of equipment. Still positions within SS leadership was dependent on party loyalty and politics over real leadership, tactical thinking, ect. Leading to the failure to capitalize on military intellect at higher levels of command. Additionally as the war went on these Divisions were overused, continiously run into the ground, and constantly put in terrible situations. As the war continued this had a compounding effect, especially after the catastrophic twin defeats of Normandy and Bagration. So the 1st SS of 1943 wasn't the 1st SS of June 1944 which wasn't the 1st SS of September '44.

As far as Volksgrendiers: Volksgrendiers were simply German Infantry with nothing particularly special about them as individuals. The difference between Volksgrendier Divisions and the earlier Grenadier/infanterie Divisions was the structure of the two units and the TO&E. That's not to say that the changes made in the Divisional structure of Volksgrenadiers wasn't an improvement (it was, especially given the strategic situation) but in late 1944-45 they weren't really anything more than standard infantrymen that (on paper) had a higher chance of having a Smg. Some were very good others not so much.

The SS divisions never made an official structural change that the infantry divisions did but as the war reached its end they would share qualities with the Volksgrendier Divisions: cores of hardened veterans filled in with raw recruits, conscripts, ect., smaller size while trying to maintain firepower, more automatic weapons, reliance on handheld AT weapons. Most of this was simply out of necessity which was why the Volksgrendier Divisional structure was created as well.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Chief Berto:

Well even that isn't a black and white answer. Some divisions had campaigns where they were elite but afterwards couldn't maintain that level. Some units weren't very good at first but grew into being more. The war was so long and the fighting continuous that it's best to look at individual campaigns or seasons a unit fought in and judge that instead of a particular unit name from the whole war.

There's also the question of how we want to define elite: is it training, equipment, structure, veterancy, combat record? On June 4, 1944 would you say that the 101st wasn't elite but the 82nd AB was? Or even before any combat was the 101st elite? Then the British 7th Armor would have been considered elite before normandy with its outstanding combat record, but then during normandy it wouldn't perform very well. So what's that mean?

And what is the standard for being elite? I'd consider the 1st ID an elite American infantry division, but they weren't elite the same way that say the SAS units were. So I think there's just alot of variables to look at to be able to judge.

As far as which SS divisions were elite (what a loaded question), I'd start by saying that most of the SS panzer divisions had moments of being elite during the war. The structure of SS panzer divisions gave them additional size and strength (on paper, clearly this was increasingly rare as the war continued) and the internal politics of the Reich enabled these divisions to often get priority of equipment. Still positions within SS leadership was dependent on party loyalty and politics over real leadership, tactical thinking, ect. Leading to the failure to capitalize on military intellect at higher levels of command. Additionally as the war went on these Divisions were overused, continiously run into the ground, and constantly put in terrible situations. As the war continued this had a compounding effect, especially after the catastrophic twin defeats of Normandy and Bagration. So the 1st SS of 1943 wasn't the 1st SS of June 1944 which wasn't the 1st SS of September '44.

As far as Volksgrendiers: Volksgrendiers were simply German Infantry with nothing particularly special about them as individuals. The difference between Volksgrendier Divisions and the earlier Grenadier/infanterie Divisions was the structure of the two units and the TO&E. That's not to say that the changes made in the Divisional structure of Volksgrenadiers wasn't an improvement (it was, especially given the strategic situation) but in late 1944-45 they weren't really anything more than standard infantrymen that (on paper) had a higher chance of having a Smg. Some were very good others not so much.

The SS divisions never made an official structural change that the infantry divisions did but as the war reached its end they would share qualities with the Volksgrendier Divisions: cores of hardened veterans filled in with raw recruits, conscripts, ect., smaller size while trying to maintain firepower, more automatic weapons, reliance on handheld AT weapons. Most of this was simply out of necessity which was why the Volksgrendier Divisional structure was created as well.

It's harder to measure "eliteness" of allied divisions because training and equipment was consistantly above what the "elite" German divisions like Panzer Lehr or 352. Infanterie would have gotten i think.

[Chief Berto]

The 500 SS Fallschrimjager were made from SS personal that had done something criminal or pissed the wrong people off. The unit was elite in its training, they were supposed to be used in dangerous operations, sorta like highly trained expendables.

Then they paradropped to assinate Tito. Except intelligence was bad and Tito was much more heavily guarded than they thought. The mission failed from the moments they dropped and the unit was almost completely destroyed. The survivors that escaped would fight on the Eastern Front for the rest of the war but the unit never again reached regiment size.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Chief Berto:

The 500 SS Fallschrimjager were made from SS personal that had done something criminal or pissed the wrong people off. The unit was elite in its training, they were supposed to be used in dangerous operations, sorta like highly trained expendables.

Then they paradropped to assinate Tito. Except intelligence was bad and Tito was much more heavily guarded than they thought. The mission failed from the moments they dropped and the unit was almost completely destroyed. The survivors that escaped would fight on the Eastern Front for the rest of the war but the unit never again reached regiment size.

I guess that would still be elite by Nazi German standards. Those panzer divisions in Normandy are all considered elite and they got destroyed. Although there's a bit of a difference between some Yugoslavian yokels and the US Army. Being a paratrooper was a lot harder for the Axis cause their plans weren't very well thought out.

[Chief Berto]

Originally posted by Teen Male Sleuth:

It's harder to measure "eliteness" of allied divisions because training and equipment was consistantly above what the "elite" German divisions like Panzer Lehr or 352. Infanterie would have gotten i think.

Well sorta. I wouldn't say necessarily better but different. The Americans especially put training emphasis on physical fitness even for junior officers (trained in programs, not the ones coming out of West Point) while german training was more based around practical combat expereince, and the military education of a German junior officer was much more practical and tactical.

The Germans also were constantly reforming units and creating new units around smaller units of veterans. The veterans would become the NCOs and core of the unit and would be the ones helping to train the troops. The Americans on the other hand would continually pump replacements out of basic training only to be split and sent to front line units. While the Germans trained together and then fought together the American divisions that remained on the front lost that cohesion.

But then there's time. The Allied divisions had months and in some cases years to train prior to Normandy. The Germans however were fighting the Russians on a scale that is frankly unprecedented. As the war went on the Germans had less and less time as the situation became more and more desperate and by the end the standards were out the door. The Americans never felt pressure like this and while the quality of a replacement wasn't at the level of the men that trained in England for Overlord American divisions overall would get more experienced as the war went on.

One added note: a benefit of the Sherman as the main tank was that it had a very high survivability rate if destroyed, so that American Armor units were able to maintain a high level of veterancy.

[Chief Berto]

Those Yugoslavian yokels had been fighting for a long time, I wouldn't sleep on them...

[Chief Berto]

Also I don't think it really matters if a unit eventually is defeated or is destroyed when considering these things. The main reasons for those things happen at a higher level and can't be influenced by the day to day ground unit. Throughout history good soldiers have lost because of reasons outside whether or not they were good troops

[Chief Berto]

I think he's on his last strike with 2 outs in the top of the 9th....and he ain't the home team...

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Chief Berto:

Originally posted by Teen Male Sleuth:

It's harder to measure "eliteness" of allied divisions because training and equipment was consistantly above what the "elite" German divisions like Panzer Lehr or 352. Infanterie would have gotten i think.

Well sorta. I wouldn't say necessarily better but different. The Americans especially put training emphasis on physical fitness even for junior officers (trained in programs, not the ones coming out of West Point) while german training was more based around practical combat expereince, and the military education of a German junior officer was much more practical and tactical.

The Germans also were constantly reforming units and creating new units around smaller units of veterans. The veterans would become the NCOs and core of the unit and would be the ones helping to train the troops. The Americans on the other hand would continually pump replacements out of basic training only to be split and sent to front line units. While the Germans trained together and then fought together the American divisions that remained on the front lost that cohesion.

But then there's time. The Allied divisions had months and in some cases years to train prior to Normandy. The Germans however were fighting the Russians on a scale that is frankly unprecedented. As the war went on the Germans had less and less time as the situation became more and more desperate and by the end the standards were out the door. The Americans never felt pressure like this and while the quality of a replacement wasn't at the level of the men that trained in England for Overlord American divisions overall would get more experienced as the war went on.

One added note: a benefit of the Sherman as the main tank was that it had a very high survivability rate if destroyed, so that American Armor units were able to maintain a high level of veterancy.

Maybe the Allies should have a different veterancy system. In CoH1 the Nazis bought veterancy and the USF earned it. that game sucked though.