Should the Jagdpanzer and Jagdpanther really be anti tank?

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

They're basically just StuGs which are classified as tanks in the game, They've got nothing in common with tank destroyers like the Marders or M10 and a lot of players use the jagdpanzers and Jagdpanthers in lieu of tanks in their deck. In reality the development of jagdpanzers was actually a system to create more defensive oriented tanks that were cheaper to produce than normal panzers similar to the StuG vs the Panzer IV. Panzerjagers like the Marder on the other hand were dedicated tank destroyers, Which is esentially just a AT gun strapped onto a tank.

[✠Cherrybomb✠]

Research a little bit about their history and combat role. After that you will agree how they were fit into the game.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by ✠Cherrybomb✠:

Research a little bit about their history and combat role. After that you will agree how they were fit into the game.

Why don't you tell me since you're such an expert. In reality half of the armor in a Panzer division was jagdpanzers and the other half was conventional panzers. Wheras their actual tank destroyers, the Panzerjagers were being used in dedicated tank destroyer formations.

Also in game they're still functionally the same as the StuG which is classified as a tank.

[Zeno]

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

They're basically just StuGs which are classified as tanks in the game, They've got nothing in common with tank destroyers like the Marders or M10 and a lot of players use the jagdpanzers and Jagdpanthers in lieu of tanks in their deck. In reality the development of jagdpanzers was actually a system to create more defensive oriented tanks that were cheaper to produce than normal panzers similar to the StuG vs the Panzer IV. Panzerjagers like the Marder on the other hand were dedicated tank destroyers, Which is esentially just a AT gun strapped onto a tank.

Hi.

Jagdpanzer means huntertank, which in English would be a tank destroyer. Jagdpanzer is a class a type of tank in the German language.

Jagdpanther is a good example for such type of tank.


They were usually cheaper and easier to produce as they did not have a turret and mostly pretty much just mounted anti tank cannons.

Stug means Sturmgeschuetz which would translated word by word mean Storm/Assault cannon.

You are more or less right when you say that Jagdpanzer were created as defensive weaponry. They were usually quite cheap to produce but mostly armoured and flexible as every other tank, which made them mobile and very flexible in use.

But as you know, a battle isn't always straight forward, nor is a war! Hence Jagdpanzer were also used for offensive strategies and tactics from time to time.

The majority if not all Jagdpanzer were able to use all kinds of ammunition, also anti-personnell ammunition.

I do not know WHY developers decided to mark Tank destroyers as tanks while they are clearly not your average tank but TD's or in German Jagdpanzer.

Panzerjaeger was and still is actually a military branch of the German military, not necessarily a type of tank. But it can also refer to a type of tank destroyer. However, the terms Panzerjaeger and Jagdpanzer have exactly the same meaning in terms of terminology.


So you guys need to be careful abou terminology here. One things means an other in German you know. In fact, the Germans were mother to most of our modern branches and military structures and weapons etc. Just that most English speaking countries have developed their own terminology by now.

The Panzerjaeger were usually always attached to infantry regiments or as a whole detachment within tank or tank grenadier divisions. They weren't only focused on hunting tanks, in fact, their main task was actually to take out enemy defensive positions such as MGs and bunkers. The STUG was pretty much designed for that later during the war. It wasn't purely for hunting tanks, nor was any other Jagdpanzer. Hence they can be used for offensive tactics, doesn't make them TANKS however.

Hope I could clear a few things up...even if it's a lot of terminology.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

They're basically just StuGs which are classified as tanks in the game, They've got nothing in common with tank destroyers like the Marders or M10 and a lot of players use the jagdpanzers and Jagdpanthers in lieu of tanks in their deck. In reality the development of jagdpanzers was actually a system to create more defensive oriented tanks that were cheaper to produce than normal panzers similar to the StuG vs the Panzer IV. Panzerjagers like the Marder on the other hand were dedicated tank destroyers, Which is esentially just a AT gun strapped onto a tank.

Hi.

Jagdpanzer means huntertank, which in English would be a tank destroyer. Jagdpanzer is a class a type of tank in the German language.

Jagdpanther is a good example for such type of tank.


They were usually cheaper and easier to produce as they did not have a turret and mostly pretty much just mounted anti tank cannons.

Stug means Sturmgeschuetz which would translated word by word mean Storm/Assault cannon.

You are more or less right when you say that Jagdpanzer were created as defensive weaponry. They were usually quite cheap to produce but mostly armoured and flexible as every other tank, which made them mobile and very flexible in use.

But as you know, a battle isn't always straight forward, nor is a war! Hence Jagdpanzer were also used for offensive strategies and tactics from time to time.

The majority if not all Jagdpanzer were able to use all kinds of ammunition, also anti-personnell ammunition.

I do not know WHY developers decided to mark Tank destroyers as tanks while they are clearly not your average tank but TD's or in German Jagdpanzer.

Panzerjaeger was and still is actually a military branch of the German military, not necessarily a type of tank. But it can also refer to a type of tank destroyer. However, the terms Panzerjaeger and Jagdpanzer have exactly the same meaning in terms of terminology.


So you guys need to be careful abou terminology here. One things means an other in German you know. In fact, the Germans were mother to most of our modern branches and military structures and weapons etc. Just that most English speaking countries have developed their own terminology by now.

The Panzerjaeger were usually always attached to infantry regiments or as a whole detachment within tank or tank grenadier divisions. They weren't only focused on hunting tanks, in fact, their main task was actually to take out enemy defensive positions such as MGs and bunkers. The STUG was pretty much designed for that later during the war. It wasn't purely for hunting tanks, nor was any other Jagdpanzer. Hence they can be used for offensive tactics, doesn't make them TANKS however.

Hope I could clear a few things up...even if it's a lot of terminology.

I just thought i'd clarrify but the StuG was designed as an assault gun for the infantry arm of the Wehrmacht since the Panzertruppe wasn't used for supporting infantry they designed a cheaper alternative to the Panzer IV for the infantry, Although later in the war it was rearmed similar to the Panzer IV for using the KwK40 instead of the KwK34 it was still organized under infantry units.

There was a lot of interservice rivalry between the Panzer and Infantry arm because the StuG IV was created to give more armor to the infantry at the expense of Panzer IV production since it was built on Panzer IV lines. So they developed StuG designs for other tanks too like the Panzer 38(t), Panzer IV and Panther that were reclassed as jagdpanzer so the Panzertruppe could adopt them. They were distinct from the Panzerjager vehicles as they were essentially used as ersatz tanks due to their design wheras vehicles like the Nashorn or Marder were anti tank guns on treads.

Also after the war Jagdpanzer were still used by the Bundeswehr as part of the panzerjagertruppe mostly missile armed vehicles but also the kanonejagdpanzer 90 which was a similar concept built on a M47.

[Zeno]

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Hi.

Jagdpanzer means huntertank, which in English would be a tank destroyer. Jagdpanzer is a class a type of tank in the German language.

Jagdpanther is a good example for such type of tank.


They were usually cheaper and easier to produce as they did not have a turret and mostly pretty much just mounted anti tank cannons.

Stug means Sturmgeschuetz which would translated word by word mean Storm/Assault cannon.

You are more or less right when you say that Jagdpanzer were created as defensive weaponry. They were usually quite cheap to produce but mostly armoured and flexible as every other tank, which made them mobile and very flexible in use.

But as you know, a battle isn't always straight forward, nor is a war! Hence Jagdpanzer were also used for offensive strategies and tactics from time to time.

The majority if not all Jagdpanzer were able to use all kinds of ammunition, also anti-personnell ammunition.

I do not know WHY developers decided to mark Tank destroyers as tanks while they are clearly not your average tank but TD's or in German Jagdpanzer.

Panzerjaeger was and still is actually a military branch of the German military, not necessarily a type of tank. But it can also refer to a type of tank destroyer. However, the terms Panzerjaeger and Jagdpanzer have exactly the same meaning in terms of terminology.


So you guys need to be careful abou terminology here. One things means an other in German you know. In fact, the Germans were mother to most of our modern branches and military structures and weapons etc. Just that most English speaking countries have developed their own terminology by now.

The Panzerjaeger were usually always attached to infantry regiments or as a whole detachment within tank or tank grenadier divisions. They weren't only focused on hunting tanks, in fact, their main task was actually to take out enemy defensive positions such as MGs and bunkers. The STUG was pretty much designed for that later during the war. It wasn't purely for hunting tanks, nor was any other Jagdpanzer. Hence they can be used for offensive tactics, doesn't make them TANKS however.

Hope I could clear a few things up...even if it's a lot of terminology.

I just thought i'd clarrify but the StuG was designed as an assault gun for the infantry arm of the Wehrmacht since the Panzertruppe wasn't used for supporting infantry they designed a cheaper alternative to the Panzer IV for the infantry, Although later in the war it was rearmed similar to the Panzer IV for using the KwK40 instead of the KwK34 it was still organized under infantry units.

There was a lot of interservice rivalry between the Panzer and Infantry arm because the StuG IV was created to give more armor to the infantry at the expense of Panzer IV production since it was built on Panzer IV lines. So they developed StuG designs for other tanks too like the Panzer 38(t), Panzer IV and Panther that were reclassed as jagdpanzer so the Panzertruppe could adopt them. They were distinct from the Panzerjager vehicles as they were essentially used as ersatz tanks due to their design wheras vehicles like the Nashorn or Marder were anti tank guns on treads.

Also after the war Jagdpanzer were still used by the Bundeswehr as part of the panzerjagertruppe mostly missile armed vehicles but also the kanonejagdpanzer 90 which was a similar concept built on a M47.

I do not know anything about the Panzer 4 and Panther being reclassed as Jagdpanzer. Never heard of that before.

But I know that the Panzertruppe was used to support infantry during WW2. They might haven't done so in such advanced combined arms tactics as in our modern armed forces, but they definitely did support infantry offensives.

Yes, I am aware of the Panzerjaegertruppe using Jagdpanzer. Hence it's called Panzerjaegertruppe. I can't tell you much about what equipment they exactly used though, as I have joined the Bundeswehr 5 years after the Panzerjaegertruppe was dissolved.

What I know is that we will probably never ever see Anti-tank formations as we saw it during WW 2. As nowadays we have access to anti-tank missiles and numerous other AT capable weapons that can easily be used by simple units as an infantryman and easily blow up a modern MBT.
It's interesting how much structures, tactics and the whole process of battle has changed within the last 100 years.

I remember one of my grandfathers telling me how they used pretty much everything they could get somehow for other purposes during the war, especially during the Africa campaign and Stalingrad, which he has both served in an survived. He told me that they used anti-tank cannons in offensive maneuvres pushed towards enemy positions for 3 or even 4 km by just a few men.
He also told me things like toothpaste being used to camoflague their helmets during the winter in stalingrad.

So what I am trying to say si, it doesn't necessarily matter what the stug or whatever is classed as, it doesn't matter in real life nor does it matter in this game. You use it for whatever you can use it.

PS: I am not a tank expert as I have served as a Fallschirmjaeger. But we interacted with the Panzertruppe here and there. The only thing impressive about it was the Leopard really.

[[OTS]EchoZenLogos]

Ultimately, the dividing line between "anti-tank" vehicles and simply "tanks" is arbitrary. You can look at historical examples to justify things if you would like, but the designations in this game seem to have been made primarily for the sake of balance "and" historical accuracy. Even if you can argue that the latter isn't entirely accurate in this case, when the divisions in this game have only so many slots for tanks vs anti-tank vehicles, splitting them up is necessaary.

[Zeno]

Originally posted by Echonian:

Ultimately, the dividing line between "anti-tank" vehicles and simply "tanks" is arbitrary. You can look at historical examples to justify things if you would like, but the designations in this game seem to have been made primarily for the sake of balance "and" historical accuracy. Even if you can argue that the latter isn't entirely accurate in this case, when the divisions in this game have only so many slots for tanks vs anti-tank vehicles, splitting them up is necessaary.

This is correct.

The whole discussion is kind of pointless anyway. As WE know what we are using ingame anyway. This is not a historical simulator. Just a RTS game based on WW2.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Echonian:

Ultimately, the dividing line between "anti-tank" vehicles and simply "tanks" is arbitrary. You can look at historical examples to justify things if you would like, but the designations in this game seem to have been made primarily for the sake of balance "and" historical accuracy. Even if you can argue that the latter isn't entirely accurate in this case, when the divisions in this game have only so many slots for tanks vs anti-tank vehicles, splitting them up is necessaary.

I don't think so because the only vehicles that cause confusion are the Jagdpanzer and Jagdpanther as they share the heavy fully armored design of a tank, If you look at a M10 or a Marder you'll see they're open topped and use a AT gun instead of a tank gun because of their role as a more mobile AT gun they need better visibility and to be compatable with their towed counterparts. The only other thing that could be considered a tank destroyer that's classified as a tank is the fireflies and they are considered tanks on every functional level, Just with a focus on their AT ability with a different gun.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

I do not know anything about the Panzer 4 and Panther being reclassed as Jagdpanzer. Never heard of that before.

I assume you mean the Jagdpanzers and Jagdpanthers? Yeah they were originally designed as StuG for the Infantry to add more vehicles than just the Panzer III to their lineup, But the Panzertruppe didn't have enough tanks so they reclassed them as jagdpanzer so they would get them instead.

[Zeno]

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

I do not know anything about the Panzer 4 and Panther being reclassed as Jagdpanzer. Never heard of that before.

I assume you mean the Jagdpanzers and Jagdpanthers? Yeah they were originally designed as StuG for the Infantry to add more vehicles than just the Panzer III to their lineup, But the Panzertruppe didn't have enough tanks so they reclassed them as jagdpanzer so they would get them instead.

No. You've said Panzer 4 and Panther. Hence I have said I have never heard of them being reclassed as tank destroyers.

I am aware of the Stug's role, as it's in the name already " Sturmgeschuetz ". Every German will straight away understand that this is a gun used for assault tactics.

Why the Panzertruppe reclassed something, no idea. Doesn't sound right to me as it's not a common thing in the German military to reclass something just to get it in to a structure somehow.
Seems very unusual to me and I have never heard of that before.

[Thork]

If you are not aware of German military reclassification, I recommend you study the time between first and second world war. There was a lot of reclassification to circumvent restrictions imposed by the Versailles treaty. (e.g. Großtraktor[en.wikipedia.org])
It is still used today to circumvent treaty restrictions and pretend compliance. (e.g. rockets)
It also happens/ed for other reasons, like propaganda.

[Zeno]

Originally posted by Thork:

If you are not aware of German military reclassification, I recommend you study the time between first and second world war. There was a lot of reclassification to circumvent restrictions imposed by the Versailles treaty. (e.g. Großtraktor[en.wikipedia.org])
It is still used today to circumvent treaty restrictions and pretend compliance. (e.g. rockets)
It also happens/ed for other reasons, like propaganda.

I will have a look in to it. Cheers.

[Ulater]

Originally posted by author:

Why don't you tell me since you're such an expert. In reality half of the armor in a Panzer division was jagdpanzers and the other half was conventional panzers.

Not even remotely close.

Originally posted by author:

I assume you mean the Jagdpanzers and Jagdpanthers? Yeah they were originally designed as StuG for the Infantry to add more vehicles than just the Panzer III to their lineup, But the Panzertruppe didn't have enough tanks so they reclassed them as jagdpanzer so they would get them instead.

False statement.

[[EUG] MadMat]

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

Should the Jagdpanzer and Jagdpanther really be anti tank?

Well, it was the role they were designed for, used for, and replaced previous unit of this type.
So that's the role they've got ingame.

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

They've got nothing in common with tank destroyers like the Marders

Jagdpanzer IV were introduced as replacement the Marder actually, so one could say they had a little bit in common ... :)

I would agree with the StuG being less easy to classify, since it started as an assault gun, was then used as a Panzerjäger and finally happened to be used as a tank in tank brigade or divisions.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by OptimusUK:

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

I assume you mean the Jagdpanzers and Jagdpanthers? Yeah they were originally designed as StuG for the Infantry to add more vehicles than just the Panzer III to their lineup, But the Panzertruppe didn't have enough tanks so they reclassed them as jagdpanzer so they would get them instead.

No. You've said Panzer 4 and Panther. Hence I have said I have never heard of them being reclassed as tank destroyers.

I am aware of the Stug's role, as it's in the name already " Sturmgeschuetz ". Every German will straight away understand that this is a gun used for assault tactics.

Why the Panzertruppe reclassed something, no idea. Doesn't sound right to me as it's not a common thing in the German military to reclass something just to get it in to a structure somehow.
Seems very unusual to me and I have never heard of that before.

"So they developed StuG designs for other tanks too like the Panzer 38(t), Panzer IV and Panther"

You left out important context there buddy, Those StuG designs are what became the Hetzer, Jagdpanther and Jagdpanzer IV.