All the Fallschirmjager's gear is silly.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

First off they wouldn't be using the FG42, Those things were pretty much exclusively issued to special units that were actually being airdropped like those dudes who tried to rescue mussolini. And even if they did they'd use it as a light machine gun in lieu of a MG42 or MG34, But in game they use it as a SMG in Lieu of the MP40 which would be pretty much impossible because of the heavy recoil, light weight and high cyclic rate of the rifle. So it doesn't make any sense to have a squad with the FG42 and MG42, That's like if the US airborne had a squad with BARs and M1919s. Those recoiless guns would be used by gerbirgsjager in the mountains on the eastern front, norway, italy and southern france, But not in Normandy to my knowledge, And those pak 41 squeeze bores would be discontinued since they only made 300 in 1941 and stopped making ammo for them around 1942 aswell. The only thing that really fits is the pupchen but those would be used by virtually anyone axis unit on the western front.

[Sev]

Lmg -》 light machine gun -》leichtes maschinengewehr. Not automatic rifle, wehrmacht designated all squad MGs as lmg except those on tripod, those were called sMG -》 schweres Maschinengewehr -》 HMG.

The FG 42 was designated as rifle, its intendet use, and accordingly distributed as such.

The three different designations of the assault rifle last known as STG 44 has to do with Hitlers ban of researching/producing the Maschinenkarabiner so it subsequently it got renamed as Mp 43 and Mp 44 as cover up until it got its last designation by Hitler himself as Sturmgewehr 44 in december 44.
The distribution was according to the KStN Mp numbers and with the oncreased output of the Mp 44 the KStNs were changed to change normal rifle platoons into Mp platoons.
But this has nothing to do with the distribution or use of the FG 42.

[[EUG] MadMat]

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

lmg means automatic rifle in German. a LMG would just be called MG.

You may soon realize that giving Sev lessons in German was a bad idea ... ;)

[Blackbeard]

Originally posted by EUG MadMat:

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

lmg means automatic rifle in German. a LMG would just be called MG.

You may soon realize that giving Sev lessons in German was a bad idea ... ;)

Happens, if you try to lecture a person about his own native language...

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Sev:

Lmg -》 light machine gun -》leichtes maschinengewehr. Not automatic rifle, wehrmacht designated all squad MGs as lmg except those on tripod, those were called sMG -》 schweres Maschinengewehr -》 HMG.

The FG 42 was designated as rifle, its intendet use, and accordingly distributed as such.

The three different designations of the assault rifle last known as STG 44 has to do with Hitlers ban of researching/producing the Maschinenkarabiner so it subsequently it got renamed as Mp 43 and Mp 44 as cover up until it got its last designation by Hitler himself as Sturmgewehr 44 in december 44.
The distribution was according to the KStN Mp numbers and with the oncreased output of the Mp 44 the KStNs were changed to change normal rifle platoons into Mp platoons.
But this has nothing to do with the distribution or use of the FG 42.

Out of a cursory search of machine guns designations during ww2 i found this list

Kulomet Vz.30/Puska Mitralez 7.92 M37 = 7.92 MG 30(t) & 148(j)
Breda modello 30 = 6.5mm MG 099(i)
Mittrailleur M20v = 6.5mm MG 100(h)
Norwegian Madsens = 6.5mm MG 102(n) & 103(n)
Hotchkiss M1926 = 6.5mm MG 104(g) & 7.92mm MG 152(g)
Hotchkiss M1922 = 8mm MG 105(f)
Darne M1922 = 6.5 oder 8mm MG 106(f)
'Lewis' M1924 = 8mm MG 107(f) (Not the Lewis Gun, a French aerial mount)
Chatellerault M1924/29 = 7.5 MG 116(f)
DP 1928g = 7.62mm MG 120(r)
FM 1930 = 7.65mm MG 127(b)
Hotchkiss Mk.1&1* = 7.7mm MG 136(e)und(g)
Lewis gun Mk1 = 7.7mm MG 137(e)
Bren Mks 1&2 = 7.7mm MG 138(e)
RKM wz.28 = 7.9mm IMG154/1(p),154/2(p),28(p)
Chaucats = 8mm MG 156(f),(g),(j) - 7.65mm MG 126(b) - 7.9mm MG 147(j)
FM Madsen M1922 = 8mm MG 157(f)
Danish Madsens = 8mm MG 158(d), 159(d)
7.5mm Mle 1931 = 7.5mm KpfwMG 311(f)
DT = 7.62mm KpfwMG 320(r)
Assorted Maxims = 7.92mm sMG 08, 7.65mm MG 221(b), 7.9mm MG 248(j),(p),(r)
Vz.37/Mitralez M40 = 7.92mm sMG 37(t), 246(j)
ZB Vz.60/Mitralez 15mm M38 = MG 38(t) Kal.15mm, MG 39, MG 490(j)
Fiat 14 = 6.5mm sMG 200(i),(j)


Norwegian Hotchkisses = 6.5mm MG 201(n) & 7.9mm MG 240(n)
Russian Sokolov Maxims = 7.92 MG 216(r)
Degtyarov 1939 = 7.62mm MG 218(r)
Belgian Hotchkiss = 7.65mm MG 220(b)
Vickers Heavy = 7.7mm MG 230(e),(r) & 7.7mm MG 231(b)
Dutch Schwarzlose 241, M08, M08/13 = 7.9mm MG 241(h), 242(h), 243(h)
CM M08/15 = 7.9mm KavMG 244(h)
Colt produced Browning m1917s m/29T & CKM wz.30 = 7.9mm MG 245/1,/2(n) & 7.9mm MG 30(p), 249(p)
Fiat M1914/35 = 8mm MG 255(i)
St. Etienne M1907,M7/15 = 8mm MG 256 (f),(g),(j)
Hotchkiss M1914 = 8mm MG257(f),(j),(p) & 238(p)
Breda M37 = 8mm MG 259(i)
DShK 1938 = 12.7mm MG 268(r)
Hotchkiss 13.2 M1930 = 13.2mm MG 271(f)
Besa 7.92 Mk 1-3 = 7.9mm KpfwMG 341(e)
Breda 38 = 8mm KpfwMG 350(i)
Besa 15mm = 15mm KpfwMG 376(e)

Now the only one of those that are designated anything beyond MachineGewehr are KavMG, IMG and KpfwMG which i assume means Kavallerie Machine Gewehr and Kampfwagen Machine Gewehr. Which i believe means Cavalry Machine Gun and combat vehicle machine gun in english. So it seems like an overwhelming exception that all these guns aren't reffered to as sMG or lMG. Also i just noticed you apparently read that wrong because the BAR was designated IMG not LMG. Which i assume is shorthand for Infanterie Machine Gewehr. But correct me if i'm wrong.

[Sev]

The lMG is not an i but l for leicht/light.

Importantly: all captured weapons got a designation but not all were used, this depended on the ammunition reserves available or the possibility and worth of rechambering the weapons. This has of course also outliers at the end when everything was thrown out of the depots to arm Volkssturm units and the like who had also only limited access to the weapons, still produced, distributed by the Wehrmacht.

The KStN Kriegsstärke Nachweis the german TO&E shows which weapon type is distributed in a unit to whom, simply a weapon authorization. This is important since a squads MG is refered to as lMG, sometimes as l.MG, because the Wehrmacht differentiated between light and heavy MG because of its mount, bipod or tripod, sMG/s.MG -> HMG. In case of a sMG there had to be a tripod to be authorized too.

MGs like the BAR or the Bren, which were used were authorized as squads l.MGs, if they had been distributed as sMGs then with an tripod ( which is in case of the BAR as far as i know not existant -> lMG use only, therefore lMG 26), in case of the Bren there might be and because of that no precise designation as l.MG.

In the part about Kav and KpfwMG is correct, this designation is due the soley purpose in the Cavalry or a Tank.

So according to the KStN no Gewehr/Rifle like the FG 42 could replace a lMG in a squad in distribution, but the FG 42 was never planed to replace the two lMGs in the squad but to give the riflemen within the squad more firepower.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Sev:

The lMG is not an i but l for leicht/light.

Importantly: all captured weapons got a designation but not all were used, this depended on the ammunition reserves available or the possibility and worth of rechambering the weapons. This has of course also outliers at the end when everything was thrown out of the depots to arm Volkssturm units and the like who had also only limited access to the weapons, still produced, distributed by the Wehrmacht.

The KStN Kriegsstärke Nachweis the german TO&E shows which weapon type is distributed in a unit to whom, simply a weapon authorization. This is important since a squads MG is refered to as lMG, sometimes as l.MG, because the Wehrmacht differentiated between light and heavy MG because of its mount, bipod or tripod, sMG/s.MG -> HMG. In case of a sMG there had to be a tripod to be authorized too.

MGs like the BAR or the Bren, which were used were authorized as squads l.MGs, if they had been distributed as sMGs then with an tripod ( which is in case of the BAR as far as i know not existant -> lMG use only, therefore lMG 26), in case of the Bren there might be and because of that no precise designation as l.MG.

In the part about Kav and KpfwMG is correct, this designation is due the soley purpose in the Cavalry or a Tank.

So according to the KStN no Gewehr/Rifle like the FG 42 could replace a lMG in a squad in distribution, but the FG 42 was never planed to replace the two lMGs in the squad but to give the riflemen within the squad more firepower.

So what you're saying is that if a rifle had a bipod it was considered a LMG, But somehow the rifle with the intergrated bipod was magically never given a role in the units it was supposed to be used in, Which is proof that it was used in Normandy as a rifle? Not only that but you also have a gun clearly designated IMG that you can't account for being named as such? Again it seems like you're making a lot of assumptions and contradictory statements with this.

[Rhedd]

Originally posted by EUG MadMat:

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

First off they wouldn't be using the FG42, Those things were pretty much exclusively issued to special units that were actually being airdropped like those dudes who tried to rescue mussolini

Gen. Richard Schimpf, commander 3. FJ, addressing his men in Normandy:
https://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/dev01/barchpic/2008/12-12/83/9b/e0/athene-5mxqxs1s40k1frp9rdw2_layout.jpg
What weapon is he carrying?

FJ in Normandie:
https://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/dev02/barchpic/2007/06-29/3a/5e/b2/athene-54qneug1rjsf82lj2hj_layout.jpg
https://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/dev01/barchpic/2011/06-29/1f/b4/87/athene-60ao0tm0f88bdf1xcu5_layout.jpg
https://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/dev01/barchpic/2011/06-29/cf/6e/cd/athene-60ao0qpo1jsmahwbcu5_layout.jpg
https://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/dev01/barchpic/2011/06-29/b6/f0/20/athene-60a8vdox4dkj8vwrcu5_layout.jpg
What are they holding?

(v. der Heydte's 6.?) FJ's soldiers in Normandy:
https://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/dev01/barchpic/2011/06-29/f5/6b/ce/athene-60a8v3x4ly09qqiuibj_layout.jpg
Look at the stock of the weapon in the foreground.

An American soldier showing weapon captured in Normandy:
http://p9.storage.canalblog.com/99/91/936122/70940706.jpg

...

FG 42 was definitively used in Normandy.
The extent of its distribution within units and tactical use is open to debate though, which is why we only gave it scarcely and did not make full FG 42 squads.

/thread

[Sev]

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

Originally posted by Sev:

So according to the KStN no Gewehr/Rifle like the FG 42 could replace a lMG in a squad in distribution, but the FG 42 was never planed to replace the two lMGs in the squad but to give the riflemen within the squad more firepower.

So what you're saying is that if a rifle had a bipod it was considered a LMG, But somehow the rifle with the intergrated bipod was magically never given a role in the units it was supposed to be used in, Which is proof that it was used in Normandy as a rifle? Not only that but you also have a gun clearly designated IMG that you can't account for being named as such? Again it seems like you're making a lot of assumptions and contradictory statements with this.

No its not contradictory since it was designated as rifle and distributed as such, it was not meant to be used as lMG because it was meant to replace the K98k not the MG 34 nor 42. You can also see this in having a bayonet, albeit almost useless but it was demanded so it was build on and scopes. Having a bipod makes it not automaticly an lMg, at least not in its intended use.
Again if it was designated as lMG it would have had a name as FMG 42 or the like.
It is not designed as lMG nor designated.

[Sev]

Originally posted by Rhedd:

Originally posted by EUG MadMat:

/thread

pretty much

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Sev:

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

So what you're saying is that if a rifle had a bipod it was considered a LMG, But somehow the rifle with the intergrated bipod was magically never given a role in the units it was supposed to be used in, Which is proof that it was used in Normandy as a rifle? Not only that but you also have a gun clearly designated IMG that you can't account for being named as such? Again it seems like you're making a lot of assumptions and contradictory statements with this.

No its not contradictory since it was designated as rifle and distributed as such, it was not meant to be used as lMG because it was meant to replace the K98k not the MG 34 nor 42. You can also see this in having a bayonet, albeit almost useless but it was demanded so it was build on and scopes. Having a bipod makes it not automaticly an lMg, at least not in its intended use.
Again if it was designated as lMG it would have had a name as FMG 42 or the like.
It is not designed as lMG nor designated.

Again you have overwhelming exception to machine guns being designated by their role though. Your argument that it would be named differently contradicts both of our sources too. And if the TO&E is as rigid as you claim it is where would it fit into their equipment? Would they seriously use it as a replacment for the most produced firearm on the planet at the time, Or the machine guns they had severe shortages of? It's a hard system to even look at from a logical perspective.

[[91.PzD] mr.blonde]

Produktionszahlen 1942(alle Mg´s für Infanterie) 77.340
Produktionszahlen 1943(alle Mg´s für Infanterie) 165.527
Produktionszahlen 1944(alle Mg´s für Infanterie) 278.164


Monatsausstoss 17.500 (maximum im Winter 1944/45)

[Sev]

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

Originally posted by Sev:

Again you have overwhelming exception to machine guns being designated by their role though. Your argument that it would be named differently contradicts both of our sources too. And if the TO&E is as rigid as you claim it is where would it fit into their equipment? Would they seriously use it as a replacment for the most produced firearm on the planet at the time, Or the machine guns they had severe shortages of? It's a hard system to even look at from a logical perspective.

It would fit in their equipment as Rifle, like it meant to be. It was designated as G for Gewehr -> Rifle. The rifles production numbers have more to do with the priorities and the FG 42 got a very low one, naturaly as a specialized weapon for a single type of infantry. As the numbers show above they had no severe shortages on MGs.
The system is pretty logical. You designate the weapon according to its intended use and the weapon it shall replace/substitute and distribute it accordingly.
The STG 44 in 43 still designated as Mp 43 replaced all 6 Mps in Jäger squads despite being in a totaly other league than the replaced Mp 40.
The Fallschirmjäger wanted a Rifle with increased firepower over longer ranges (with and without scopes, therefore the 7,92 caliber, caliber) that is also close quarter capable (lightweigth, full auto capable, bayonet) and they got it, albeit in low numbers due low priority in production and the rather long production cycle. Thats it.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by mr.blonde:

Produktionszahlen 1942(alle Mg´s für Infanterie) 77.340
Produktionszahlen 1943(alle Mg´s für Infanterie) 165.527
Produktionszahlen 1944(alle Mg´s für Infanterie) 278.164


Monatsausstoss 17.500 (maximum im Winter 1944/45)

Is that a real number or is it fake like your service in Afganistan?

[[91.PzD] mr.blonde]

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

Originally posted by mr.blonde:

Produktionszahlen 1942(alle Mg´s für Infanterie) 77.340
Produktionszahlen 1943(alle Mg´s für Infanterie) 165.527
Produktionszahlen 1944(alle Mg´s für Infanterie) 278.164


Monatsausstoss 17.500 (maximum im Winter 1944/45)

Is that a real number or is it fake like your service in Afganistan?

Produktionszahlen 1942(alle Mg´s für Infanterie) 77.340
Produktionszahlen 1943(alle Mg´s für Infanterie) 165.527
Produktionszahlen 1944(alle Mg´s für Infanterie) 278.164


Monatsausstoss 17.500 (maximum im Winter 1944/45)

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Sev:

Originally posted by Kanmusu Marine Sexpert:

Again you have overwhelming exception to machine guns being designated by their role though. Your argument that it would be named differently contradicts both of our sources too. And if the TO&E is as rigid as you claim it is where would it fit into their equipment? Would they seriously use it as a replacment for the most produced firearm on the planet at the time, Or the machine guns they had severe shortages of? It's a hard system to even look at from a logical perspective.

It would fit in their equipment as Rifle, like it meant to be. It was designated as G for Gewehr -> Rifle. The rifles production numbers have more to do with the priorities and the FG 42 got a very low one, naturaly as a specialized weapon for a single type of infantry. As the numbers show above they had no severe shortages on MGs.
The system is pretty logical. You designate the weapon according to its intended use and the weapon it shall replace/substitute and distribute it accordingly.
The STG 44 in 43 still designated as Mp 43 replaced all 6 Mps in Jäger squads despite being in a totaly other league than the replaced Mp 40.
The Fallschirmjäger wanted a Rifle with increased firepower over longer ranges (with and without scopes, therefore the 7,92 caliber, caliber) that is also close quarter capable (lightweigth, full auto capable, bayonet) and they got it, albeit in low numbers due low priority in production and the rather long production cycle. Thats it.

Bro they had over 18,000,000 soldiers, Just from armored vehicles alone they would need almost 200,000 MG34s. Without even taking into consideration the huge amounts of attrition, static machine guns on defensive positions like checkpoints far behind the frontline, and the numbers produced for other axis powers. They wouldn't be converting aircraft machine guns like the MG-15 for ground use if they had no "severe" shortage. The MP43 was originally designed as a universal replacement for the rifle, machine gun and SMG but was reduced to only being used to replace the SMG. And even then not entirely because they lacked the numbers too. Your example is in agreement with me. Not only that but the FG 42 was very economic to construct. Around the same cost in manhours as a MG 42 So that literally doesn't make any sense.