Help Dealing With Churchill Vs

[[OTS]EchoZenLogos]

So, I've been struggling against this tank in particular with Luftlande, vs 15th infantry.

It fires high explosive shots at any anti-tank guns I have in place, usually killing them long before my anti-tank gun can kill it (usually, it's a problem with Pak 38s). If it doesn't kill them, it instantly pins them down.

It also pins down tanks that could kill it, what little I have, very quickly, and immediately kills infantry that might try to get remotely close ti it.

Do I need to use more air strikes in order to deal with them? Considering how long it takes to build up air power, this seems tough.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. That tank kills emplacements and suppresses everything so quickly that one in the game I just played killed two Pak 38 guns I had set up, and then went on to kill 3 Pak 36s, 3 Flak 38s, A Fusilier, an IG-18, and a 50 mm mortar before I finally could afford to call in an HS-129 to kill it.

They had another Churchill V that killed my third Pak 38 and two more Pak 36s. The problem I'm running into is that even when my 10 AP AT guns fire at it from within range (it has 9 frontal armor), they usually are so inaccurate that the Churchill can just fire a single shot - which usually is sufficient to kill or disable the gun (if it pins it down, it can just fire another shot to finish it off).

[Zeno]

Originally posted by Echonian:

So, I've been struggling against this tank in particular with Luftlande, vs 15th infantry.

It fires high explosive shots at any anti-tank guns I have in place, usually killing them long before my anti-tank gun can kill it (usually, it's a problem with Pak 38s). If it doesn't kill them, it instantly pins them down.

It also pins down tanks that could kill it, what little I have, very quickly, and immediately kills infantry that might try to get remotely close ti it.

Do I need to use more air strikes in order to deal with them? Considering how long it takes to build up air power, this seems tough.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. That tank kills emplacements and suppresses everything so quickly that one in the game I just played killed two Pak 38 guns I had set up, and then went on to kill 3 Pak 36s, 3 Flak 38s, A Fusilier, an IG-18, and a 50 mm mortar before I finally could afford to call in an HS-129 to kill it.

They had another Churchill V that killed my third Pak 38 and two more Pak 36s.

It's almost impossible to defeat the churchill without having huge losses....

There are only 3 ways of having a chance. Starting off with the best way:

1. Using AT infantry and ambushing it from a building, works almost only in an urban area, streets etc.

2. Flanking it from both sides and taking a shot with some decent tank ( unfortunately churchills are well guarded ).

3. Attacking it by plane, and then advancing towards it's position using several units such as infantry and tanks.

Sadly I have to admit, that air to ground planes in this game, are almost useless. I remember me using up to 6 lightening planes against one single tank, and it not being able to remotely destroy it O.o so planes are pretty useless in this game. No idea why they have added planes if they can't defeat simple ground units.

[Thodin]

Welcome in Normandy, where Lions fight sheeps. The phase system makes sure there are just sheeps on one side.

[[OTS]EchoZenLogos]

Originally posted by Hombre_Lobo:

Originally posted by Echonian:

So, I've been struggling against this tank in particular with Luftlande, vs 15th infantry.

It fires high explosive shots at any anti-tank guns I have in place, usually killing them long before my anti-tank gun can kill it (usually, it's a problem with Pak 38s). If it doesn't kill them, it instantly pins them down.

It also pins down tanks that could kill it, what little I have, very quickly, and immediately kills infantry that might try to get remotely close ti it.

Do I need to use more air strikes in order to deal with them? Considering how long it takes to build up air power, this seems tough.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. That tank kills emplacements and suppresses everything so quickly that one in the game I just played killed two Pak 38 guns I had set up, and then went on to kill 3 Pak 36s, 3 Flak 38s, A Fusilier, an IG-18, and a 50 mm mortar before I finally could afford to call in an HS-129 to kill it.

They had another Churchill V that killed my third Pak 38 and two more Pak 36s.

It's almost impossible to defeat the churchill without having huge losses....

There are only 3 ways of having a chance. Starting off with the best way:

1. Using AT infantry and ambushing it from a building, works almost only in an urban area, streets etc.

2. Flanking it from both sides and taking a shot with some decent tank ( unfortunately churchills are well guarded ).

3. Attacking it by plane, and then advancing towards it's position using several units such as infantry and tanks.

Sadly I have to admit, that air to ground planes in this game, are almost useless. I remember me using up to 6 lightening planes against one single tank, and it not being able to remotely destroy it O.o so planes are pretty useless in this game. No idea why they have added planes if they can't defeat simple ground units.

I mean, if I can get an HS-129 on the field, I can kill them fairly reliably. The problem of course is that I can't do so until I have fighters ready, because they are so slow that they are a free kill for enemy fighters if any of them are called in.

I was fighting it in the open near the steel factory for Columbelles (or whatever it's called). It basically traded fire with anti-tank gun after anti-tank gun and won every engagement. Since I don't have anything that can counter that much armor until Phase C besides those AT guns or calling in HS-129s, it is a bit tough.

Perhaps a Marder II would be a good counter to it? I don't typically use them, but that might be an actual use for them (given that they are so squishy as to be immediately killed against most things).

[Thodin]

Originally posted by Hombre_Lobo:

I remember me using up to 6 lightening planes against one single tank, and it not being able to remotely destroy it O.o so planes are pretty useless in this game. No idea why they have added planes if they can't defeat simple ground units.

Those rockets have no AP values, so you should use them vs. unarmed vehicles, infantry and gun emplacements.

[Zeno]

Originally posted by Thodin:

Originally posted by Hombre_Lobo:

I remember me using up to 6 lightening planes against one single tank, and it not being able to remotely destroy it O.o so planes are pretty useless in this game. No idea why they have added planes if they can't defeat simple ground units.

Those rockets have no AP values, so you should use them vs. unarmed vehicles, infantry and gun emplacements.

I have done that, they can barely crack open an armored-personell carrier or barely kill an AT-gun.

They are completely useless in my opinion, all they might do is slow enemies down forcing them to fall back. That's about it.

+ This was an example, I have been using all kinds of planes, all of them were useless against ground units for some reason.

[RSW2002]

Well, that is just the lack of viable 1200m range anti vehicle units that deck gets showing its ugly teeth.

Did you put leader units next to the AT guns to increase their accuracy? Also, you can get 1 PaK 40 in Phase A, which is usually a good idea to bring out early against the 15th Inf.

You can try killing it with sneaky AT infantry or the 300m 20AP rocket on the 36, but most players I've seen are too smart for that and really utilize that 1200m range to full effect.

You can panic it with artillery and rocket planes to buy you some time until you have a better solution ready. If the enemy doesn't protect it with AT guns nearby, you can also try stunning it and then try to attack it with a StuG and pray it doesn't recover fast enough.

Unless you get very lucky/get it stun-locked to death, a Marder II won't win against it/you won't have a chance to use it because it has very bad stealth and can thus be spotted EXTREMELY easy. And if it doesn't kill the Churchill in one shot/misses, it's toast thanks to being open topped and having extremely low armor.

Originally posted by Hombre_Lobo:

I have done that, they can barely crack open an armored-personell carrier or barely kill an AT-gun.

They are completely useless in my opinion, all they might do is slow enemies down forcing them to fall back. That's about it.

+ This was an example, I have been using all kinds of planes, all of them were useless against ground units for some reason.

They kill enemy AT gun pretty reliably for me. I think only about 10% of my attempts to kill an AT gun where not successful, but mostly because the plane got panicked and didn't fully hit the target.

[[OTS]EchoZenLogos]

I ended up putting 3 Marders in Phase B back into my deck. With proper use of those, I was able to manage any of the allied tanks in that phase - when combined with close range anti-tank infantry and AT guns. Well, except for the Jumbo, but I managed to kill one of those with a Flak 88 once I got to phase C.

Churchill 5s are still obnoxious if they are called in too early, but as long as you are careful to hold fire on your Pak 36s, and fire on them with AT guns from a close enough range that you're likely to kill them, they won't wipe out so much.

Once you get air superiority as well, by Phase C, it becomes easier and easier to simply blow their tanks up with the cannons on your guys. Wolverines can be taken out with JU-88 bombs or (if you're lucky) rockets, while heavier tanks die to cannons fairly frequently.

I didn't like Marders when I first started playing, but they can be very useful - situationally. They cost 110 points, significantly less than most of the tanks they can kill, and while they can't be hidden very well and die quite easily - if you have proper recon, they work very well. I managed to take out a couple of Sherman 75s in phase B with one of my Marders, plus a command stuart, before it got killed by another tank I hadn't seen. More than worth their cost.

[meanderthal]

I use Marder 2's against the Churchill with some success but as previously stated they are fragile beasties though they do punch well.

Best to 'shoot n scoot' with a pair of them to have a chance of keeping them alive.

Better still, if you can stun (stress) the Churchill first with mortars/arty or Air attack, the Marders can deliver the killer punch and have time to withdraw safely.

[TRIUMPH]

The hs129 is the factions gimmick against armor but currently its potential DPS is wonky and you can get RNG screwed into a pass with no kills even though you're angled for a perfect side or rear shot. This combined with the fighter bombers being broken for fighting makes the situation a laugh and you're going to have to do some sort of ground/menspam to get anywhere.

[Rot 6]

as a men with no shame i have to admit i love starting with 1 avre and follow it up with command churchills or crocs. the starting avre often enough gives me more then enoug in points value and more importantly allows for ground gain.

Effective against the avre/command churchill were 1) ats crossfiring at it> one always gets a side shot. 2) beute firefly closecombat (doenst work for luftlande sorry) 3) 2-3 pz35 or how its named encircling it. > 1 or two might die but if the remaing one gets a close up side or rear shot it might do the trick and put you at a point advantage 4) close up panzerschreck action. those inf ap pewpew with the highest ap nearly always got it when used correctly. >> i started to avoid bushes and houses like they are the devil himself :P 5.) dont panic! set up inf defenses in its way so it cant claim to much ground while pushing in and then focus on the opposit site > this will force the scotts men to either risk it while hardpushing you or send it to relive troops. i have ended up with an avre behind enemy lines twice so far. completly cut off, not much to shoot at and barely any ground gained.

[[OTS]EchoZenLogos]

Thank you everyone for sharing your strategies. It basically seems that the only way to really counter the Churchill Vs is to either wait until Phase B, or simply avoid them wherever possible (considering their cost early on, it is possible to just "defend" in areas where they push, while putting more units in other zones).

The AVRE of course is just a more extreme version of the same problem, but fortunately is more limited in number. You can't pierce its frontal armor without it getting within 300 or 250 meters (Pak 36 or AT rockest) however. I suppose a Flak 88 would kill it within about 800 meters, or Pak 40 within about 500, but you don't get those until Phase C.

The Churchill V is less of a problem in Phase C as Luftlande, in any case. It just is that they seem incredibly difficult to counter earlier. The problem mostly boils down to Luftlande lacking enough reliable AT early on to counter that sort of thing. The sole Pak 40 I get in A phase might also be a good thing to bring in, but I need to be careful with it. It "can" kill any of the starting tanks (well, except the AVRE unless you ambush it, but still, 500 meters isn't THAT far), but against the Churchill will be killed or suppressed unless it kills the Churchill on the first or second shot (or disables its weapon), so it is risky to use.

[ghhalley]

Originally posted by 孫子:

Originally posted by Echonian:

So, I've been struggling against this tank in particular with Luftlande, vs 15th infantry.

It fires high explosive shots at any anti-tank guns I have in place, usually killing them long before my anti-tank gun can kill it (usually, it's a problem with Pak 38s). If it doesn't kill them, it instantly pins them down.

It also pins down tanks that could kill it, what little I have, very quickly, and immediately kills infantry that might try to get remotely close ti it.

Do I need to use more air strikes in order to deal with them? Considering how long it takes to build up air power, this seems tough.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. That tank kills emplacements and suppresses everything so quickly that one in the game I just played killed two Pak 38 guns I had set up, and then went on to kill 3 Pak 36s, 3 Flak 38s, A Fusilier, an IG-18, and a 50 mm mortar before I finally could afford to call in an HS-129 to kill it.

They had another Churchill V that killed my third Pak 38 and two more Pak 36s.

It's almost impossible to defeat the churchill without having huge losses....

There are only 3 ways of having a chance. Starting off with the best way:

1. Using AT infantry and ambushing it from a building, works almost only in an urban area, streets etc.

2. Flanking it from both sides and taking a shot with some decent tank ( unfortunately churchills are well guarded ).

3. Attacking it by plane, and then advancing towards it's position using several units such as infantry and tanks.

Sadly I have to admit, that air to ground planes in this game, are almost useless. I remember me using up to 6 lightening planes against one single tank, and it not being able to remotely destroy it O.o so planes are pretty useless in this game. No idea why they have added planes if they can't defeat simple ground units.

Two things. Use the Hedges to move in AT troops from the side. The Tanks can't fire through them, but a well positioned team will immediately flank them when the drive by.

Finally, on planes, there is only one AT plane. Using Lightenings or any other HE attack, won't kill a tank.

[Mike]

Get Phase A HS-129 and use the Recon squad with Panzershrecks and the anti tank squad with shrecks. For your shreck squads try and shoot from buildings and use plenty of shotblockers to get in close without being exposed. Never fight in the open and always try and find an area with lots of buildings or with plenty of cover/concealment. Let the 12th SS deal with open terrain and Luftlande deal with Urban areas and bocage.

[Finnefeuer]

Originally posted by Echonian:

So, I've been struggling against this tank in particular with Luftlande, vs 15th infantry.

It fires high explosive shots at any anti-tank guns I have in place, usually killing them long before my anti-tank gun can kill it (usually, it's a problem with Pak 38s). If it doesn't kill them, it instantly pins them down.

It also pins down tanks that could kill it, what little I have, very quickly, and immediately kills infantry that might try to get remotely close ti it.

Do I need to use more air strikes in order to deal with them? Considering how long it takes to build up air power, this seems tough.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. That tank kills emplacements and suppresses everything so quickly that one in the game I just played killed two Pak 38 guns I had set up, and then went on to kill 3 Pak 36s, 3 Flak 38s, A Fusilier, an IG-18, and a 50 mm mortar before I finally could afford to call in an HS-129 to kill it.

They had another Churchill V that killed my third Pak 38 and two more Pak 36s. The problem I'm running into is that even when my 10 AP AT guns fire at it from within range (it has 9 frontal armor), they usually are so inaccurate that the Churchill can just fire a single shot - which usually is sufficient to kill or disable the gun (if it pins it down, it can just fire another shot to finish it off).

Luftlande has nothing good to fight tanks. The he anti tank aircrafts get destroyed pretty easy. I think the best are the panzerschreck units.
The at is garbage and the tanks too. The best of all 3 garbages is the at gun but ya.. a good allie palyer just put a crocodile or avre in front.

[[OTS]EchoZenLogos]

Originally posted by Finnefeuer:

Originally posted by Echonian:

So, I've been struggling against this tank in particular with Luftlande, vs 15th infantry.

It fires high explosive shots at any anti-tank guns I have in place, usually killing them long before my anti-tank gun can kill it (usually, it's a problem with Pak 38s). If it doesn't kill them, it instantly pins them down.

It also pins down tanks that could kill it, what little I have, very quickly, and immediately kills infantry that might try to get remotely close ti it.

Do I need to use more air strikes in order to deal with them? Considering how long it takes to build up air power, this seems tough.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. That tank kills emplacements and suppresses everything so quickly that one in the game I just played killed two Pak 38 guns I had set up, and then went on to kill 3 Pak 36s, 3 Flak 38s, A Fusilier, an IG-18, and a 50 mm mortar before I finally could afford to call in an HS-129 to kill it.

They had another Churchill V that killed my third Pak 38 and two more Pak 36s. The problem I'm running into is that even when my 10 AP AT guns fire at it from within range (it has 9 frontal armor), they usually are so inaccurate that the Churchill can just fire a single shot - which usually is sufficient to kill or disable the gun (if it pins it down, it can just fire another shot to finish it off).

Luftlande has nothing good to fight tanks. The he anti tank aircrafts get destroyed pretty easy. I think the best are the panzerschreck units.
The at is garbage and the tanks too. The best of all 3 garbages is the at gun but ya.. a good allie palyer just put a crocodile or avre in front.

I've managed after improving my skills quite a bit, and figuring out strategies.

HS-129s are amazing against tanks, but you have to keep them protected with fighters, so it's tough to call them out before mid-B phase in terms of points. Luftlande gets great air coverage though, so it is possible to use them.

The Pak 38s are sufficient against most tanks, and are cheap. I pretty much end up just covering every area with Pak guns, and if a Jumbo or AVRE starts pushing forward - I simply can keep my Pak guns hidden until they are in range to penetrate, or use smoke or artillery or aircraft attacks to force them to retreat and keep them away.

It is a trouble in Phase A however, sometimes. Really though, I think I've managed to figure out how to deal with it by now. Churchill Vs will win against Pak 36s, unless you manage to lure them within that amazing 300 meter range HEAT shot, but you can kill them with the one Pak 40 you start with. So I generally call that gun in depending on where the enemy sends a lot of armor presence, as a backup to my AT infantry and Pak 36s.