AT Guns Comparison Germans have no range

[Naughty Mouse]

Ok, noticed something odd. None of the German B and C AT guns have 1200 m range, but both the 76 mm and the 17 pounder have 1200 range. Not even the German 75 mm reaches up to 1200.

The German guns do have good rate of fire for the 37 and the 50, small calibers, so makes sense, but the 75 sitting as the final german AT gun at range 1000 versus both others having 1200 for their range seems a bit off. Not trying to glorify the german weapons, but the 75 Pak was a great weapon system and very accurate and may not have had the penetration compared to the 17 pounder, but certainly would have had no problems hitting targets at 1200 meter.

[Axis of Lint]

Originally posted by RSW2002:

After some testing:

Many AA units only display their ranges against ground targets, not their actual ranges against airplanes.

Example:
M15GMC shows range as 1000m and engages ground targets at that distance, but engages airplanes at 1600m.

I'll make a new topic where I list them all.

This might sound stupid, but it just popped into my head, so whatever - is it calculating 1000m along the ground to the plane, but the distance to the actual plane is 1600m because it's obviously higher up... than the ground. You get what I mean. I'm not sure how to judge distance to planes because it's not something I've ever looked at in game. Can you mouse over the plane with AA and see the distance?

[RSW2002]

Originally posted by Axis of Lint:

Originally posted by RSW2002:

After some testing:

Many AA units only display their ranges against ground targets, not their actual ranges against airplanes.

Example:
M15GMC shows range as 1000m and engages ground targets at that distance, but engages airplanes at 1600m.

I'll make a new topic where I list them all.

This might sound stupid, but it just popped into my head, so whatever - is it calculating 1000m along the ground to the plane, but the distance to the actual plane is 1600m because it's obviously higher up... than the ground. You get what I mean. I'm not sure how to judge distance to planes because it's not something I've ever looked at in game. Can you mouse over the plane with AA and see the distance?

I don't think that the heights etc. used in the game would make that much of a difference. It's also not consistently displayed. Only a handful of AA units currently display their AA range, most display their range against ground targets.

When you have selected a unit and hover your mouse over an enemy unit, you will see the range among other things.

Check my findings here:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/572410/discussions/0/133262487498045392/

[Kyso4ek]

Germans have 1200 m 88 AA (its bad though because everyo ne can see it and arty/bomb it).

Germans might be getting Pak 43 in one of the future disvisions which will have 1200 m.

Besides, you rarely want to use your AT gun at maximum range, it doesnt give you a lot of chances to win (if its not a 17 pdr ofc :D). YPOu generally want to use the "return fire mode" and activate the gun when the tank is closer.

[Naughty Mouse]

yes, look at the 37 mm versus the 88. According to the card the 37 has range of 1600, much more then the 88.

I wonder just how many more errors are in the cards, not just in range, but in actual damage, penetration and such. Things we cant really test.

[RSW2002]

Originally posted by Max Damage:

Germans have 1200 m 88 AA (its bad though because everyo ne can see it and arty/bomb it).

Germans might be getting Pak 43 in one of the future disvisions which will have 1200 m.

Besides, you rarely want to use your AT gun at maximum range, it doesnt give you a lot of chances to win (if its not a 17 pdr ofc :D). YPOu generally want to use the "return fire mode" and activate the gun when the tank is closer.

If added, the PaK 43 would obviously have 1200m range, but it will obviously also have increased AP value and thus cost a lot more. And given its size, I doubt that it will have better than "Bad" stealth.

But it's not available to either of the divisions in the beta (and may not be available for many Axis divisions if added). So that's hardly a solution to this problem.

Neither is simply using a super expensive AA unit with bad stealth that you can only get 2 or 3 of in Phase C (1 per card!). And that one doesn't carry too many AP shells with it.

[The Big Red 1]

them pak 40s got HE shells while the 57mm dont? and thats for phase a

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by The Big Red 1:

them pak 40s got HE shells while the 57mm dont? and thats for phase a

Higher-tier 75mm AT guns like the Pak 40 get HE ammo; smaller, earlier AT guns like the Pak 38 do not. This is true for both sides.

[RSW2002]

Originally posted by The Big Red 1:

them pak 40s got HE shells while the 57mm dont? and thats for phase a

17-pdr., 76mm and PaK 40 have HE shells, no other AT guns do.

[Kyso4ek]

Originally posted by RSW2002:

Originally posted by Max Damage:

Germans have 1200 m 88 AA (its bad though because everyo ne can see it and arty/bomb it).

Germans might be getting Pak 43 in one of the future disvisions which will have 1200 m.

Besides, you rarely want to use your AT gun at maximum range, it doesnt give you a lot of chances to win (if its not a 17 pdr ofc :D). YPOu generally want to use the "return fire mode" and activate the gun when the tank is closer.

If added, the PaK 43 would obviously have 1200m range, but it will obviously also have increased AP value and thus cost a lot more. And given its size, I doubt that it will have better than "Bad" stealth.

But it's not available to either of the divisions in the beta (and may not be available for many Axis divisions if added). So that's hardly a solution to this problem.

Neither is simply using a super expensive AA unit with bad stealth that you can only get 2 or 3 of in Phase C (1 per card!). And that one doesn't carry too many AP shells with it.

17 pdr has medium stealth and is a really cumbersome/big gun.

Also, thats really not a problem you just have to work with whatever you have on your hands.

[RSW2002]

Originally posted by Max Damage:

Originally posted by RSW2002:

If added, the PaK 43 would obviously have 1200m range, but it will obviously also have increased AP value and thus cost a lot more. And given its size, I doubt that it will have better than "Bad" stealth.

But it's not available to either of the divisions in the beta (and may not be available for many Axis divisions if added). So that's hardly a solution to this problem.

Neither is simply using a super expensive AA unit with bad stealth that you can only get 2 or 3 of in Phase C (1 per card!). And that one doesn't carry too many AP shells with it.

17 pdr has medium stealth and is a really cumbersome/big gun.

Also, thats really not a problem you just have to work with whatever you have on your hands.

It's a problem when the only 1200m range weapon you have against any sort of armored vehicle is a flimsy tank destroyer with little to no armor that can't hide in treelines/forests and has very bad stealth in general. Or a completely non-stealthy AA unit with horrible movement speed that you really can't afford to lose at all because you only get 2 of them max and it's very expensive and only available in Phase C and your best AA unit as well (as Luftlande).

Yeah, there's the AT plane, but it's highly expensive and takes a hell of a long time to reload.

[Naughty Mouse]

The HE AT plane gets shoot down to fast, its very slow. So not a armor counter.
All small AT guns, 37, 50, 57 and 6 pd have no HE.

Germany does not get 75 mm AT gun in phase a, first in phase 2. Its not as bad with the armor deck, as you get panther, though they are very expensive. But with the luftwaffe deck you stuck with crappy Stugs or open top guys. In both decks AT capability in phase a is at best soso, but in the fallschirm deck its horrible, since their only AT gun can be taken out by the enemys AT guns since they have 200 meter range advantages, same for tanks. No risk to a 1200 range tank if you know the enemy has no ATG that can reach you at 1200 and enemy tanks taht do have range are spotted easy, so you can pull back, unless of course you a jumbo, and then you dont care if they shoot you at range 1200

[RSW2002]

Originally posted by Naughty Mouse:

The HE AT plane gets shoot down to fast, its very slow. So not a armor counter.
All small AT guns, 37, 50, 57 and 6 pd have no HE.

Germany does not get 75 mm AT gun in phase a, first in phase 2. Its not as bad with the armor deck, as you get panther, though they are very expensive. But with the luftwaffe deck you stuck with crappy Stugs or open top guys. In both decks AT capability in phase a is at best soso, but in the fallschirm deck its horrible, since their only AT gun can be taken out by the enemys AT guns since they have 200 meter range advantages, same for tanks. No risk to a 1200 range tank if you know the enemy has no ATG that can reach you at 1200 and enemy tanks taht do have range are spotted easy, so you can pull back, unless of course you a jumbo, and then you dont care if they shoot you at range 1200

Luftlande gets 1 PaK 40 along with several 37mm in Phase A and then can either get a Marder II in Phase B or try to hold out until Phase C to get more PaK 40.

Problem being that your PaK 40 usually is the first unit the enemy focuses on destroying (Cromwell in Phase A is the ultimate trolling move against Axis AT) and even if not, all your long range AT units, especially the highly visibly Marder II ("Very Bad" stealth, can't hide in treelines/forests), gets outranged and murdered by Phase B Allied equipment with 1200m range.

[Axis of Lint]

I'm not going to comment on the state of AT in particular, but for those struggling with German AT, I'm assuming that you've considered that you can make a deck of infantry that's heavily weighted towards AT (even some of your recon) and providing you're using cover effectively, utilize a different kind of AT deterrent. I know I get a lot of my tanks blown up by random German Inf from the bushes that I missed.

These are only two of the nine decks available for the Axis so far. Perhaps they just have weaker AT.

[[OTS]EchoZenLogos]

Originally posted by RSW2002:

Originally posted by Naughty Mouse:

The HE AT plane gets shoot down to fast, its very slow. So not a armor counter.
All small AT guns, 37, 50, 57 and 6 pd have no HE.

Germany does not get 75 mm AT gun in phase a, first in phase 2. Its not as bad with the armor deck, as you get panther, though they are very expensive. But with the luftwaffe deck you stuck with crappy Stugs or open top guys. In both decks AT capability in phase a is at best soso, but in the fallschirm deck its horrible, since their only AT gun can be taken out by the enemys AT guns since they have 200 meter range advantages, same for tanks. No risk to a 1200 range tank if you know the enemy has no ATG that can reach you at 1200 and enemy tanks taht do have range are spotted easy, so you can pull back, unless of course you a jumbo, and then you dont care if they shoot you at range 1200

Luftlande gets 1 PaK 40 along with several 37mm in Phase A and then can either get a Marder II in Phase B or try to hold out until Phase C to get more PaK 40.

Problem being that your PaK 40 usually is the first unit the enemy focuses on destroying (Cromwell in Phase A is the ultimate trolling move against Axis AT) and even if not, all your long range AT units, especially the highly visibly Marder II ("Very Bad" stealth, can't hide in treelines/forests), gets outranged and murdered by Phase B Allied equipment with 1200m range.

PaK 40s are not super reliable for Luftlande, to be honest, but they are nice to have. Marders are also very difficult to effectively use due to them being paper thin, and having poor stealth. I don't utilize Marders at all with Luftlande - I simply use large numbers of Panzershrecks and air support to keep tanks at bay, plus anti-tank guns as more of a last resort than anything. Until phase C, anti-tank guns are primarily for destroying enemy armored cars, which is sufficient in my opinion given that said armored cars can really ruin your day if they spam MG fire on your infantry. Pak 36s are also quite good even late-game if they stay alive, as they can be used to ambush heavy tanks with their HEAT rounds in a similar manner to Panzerschrecks (at the downside of being far slower and a bit less stealthy I believe, so much harder to reposition easily).

Of course, Flak 88s in Phase C are amazing if you protect them properly and set them up in a good area. The last 10v10 match I played, one of my Flak 88s (buffed to 3 stars by a commander) took out 6 Sherman 76s by itself. If you combine these with your Pak 40s, you can defend fairly well against Allied armor - especially if you maintain air superiority, as Luftlande excels at.

Mortars are also exceptionally useful in helping get your units into good ambush positions by using smoke, something I think a lot of people overlook.

[RSW2002]

Originally posted by Echonian:

PaK 40s are not super reliable for Luftlande, to be honest, but they are nice to have. Marders are also very difficult to effectively use due to them being paper thin, and having poor stealth. I don't utilize Marders at all with Luftlande - I simply use large numbers of Panzershrecks and air support to keep tanks at bay, plus anti-tank guns as more of a last resort than anything. Until phase C, anti-tank guns are primarily for destroying enemy armored cars, which is sufficient in my opinion given that said armored cars can really ruin your day if they spam MG fire on your infantry. Pak 36s are also quite good even late-game if they stay alive, as they can be used to ambush heavy tanks with their HEAT rounds in a similar manner to Panzerschrecks (at the downside of being far slower and a bit less stealthy I believe, so much harder to reposition easily).

Of course, Flak 88s in Phase C are amazing if you protect them properly and set them up in a good area. The last 10v10 match I played, one of my Flak 88s (buffed to 3 stars by a commander) took out 6 Sherman 76s by itself. If you combine these with your Pak 40s, you can defend fairly well against Allied armor - especially if you maintain air superiority, as Luftlande excels at.

Mortars are also exceptionally useful in helping get your units into good ambush positions by using smoke, something I think a lot of people overlook.

They're the only thing you get that can really hurt Allied tanks without requiring intense micro. 36s are great for killing transports in Phase A thanks to their RoF, but both the 36 and 38 struggle against tanks, can't shoot soft targets and can be killed by Allied AT.

I never use the Marder IIs either for the reason I mentioned and spam both Schreck infantry types as well, but they are highly fragile and mostly do suicide attacks against decent players that don't drive up into Schreck range towards forests before scouting them/attack unscouted blocks of buildings with tanks. And that's nuts, given their cost and availability.

And as you mentioned, you need a combo of PaK 40s + the 88 to defend "fairly well" against Allied armor.