German Tanks OP

[Vepr]

As the allies the german tanks seem really powerful. On maps with open terrain the Supertiger, Tigers, and Panthers dominate the field of battle. I belive german tanks absolutly outclass allied tanks in every way with no real counter on the allied side.

Yes I could use arty to stunlock the germans, however this seems to be the only way to advance or destroy the higher class german tanks. Yet, even when stunlocked the allied tanks miss far too often to take any advantage, plus they cant even pen the german tanks. I remember moving 1 sherman, 2 Jumbos and 2 stuarts to attack 2 german Panters after stunlocking them of course( Range 400). All of my tanks were able to fire 3 times only killing one of the Panthers. After this attack the sherman and both stuarts were dead from the exact same Panther.

The AT guns only die to arty or air before they can be used properly. Even when I get them to the front they end up dead after the first shot. (Im not directly moving them to the front. I am setting traps for their tanks as well as useing them with the Jumbo, yet the AT still dies.) Another problem with AT is the limited ammount given to counter the germans in phase C. The allies need more AT that can survive to destroy the germans. The American Armored deck's AT cant even kill a Tiger face to face. How am I supposed to kill tigers/ SuperTigers without a gun that can kill their tanks?

The Supertiger can only be delt with if you Stunlock it, then Smoke it, then rush it with like 5 shermans or stuarts. Even then you run the risk of your 5 tanks being ambushed by other tanks. Plus the sherman cost too much compaired to german tanks. 3 SHERMANS ARE NOT WORTH 1 SUPERTIGER.

I've seen whole armies held up by one ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Tiger.

Please reduce the price of allied tanks, and add tanks that can destroy the german supertanks.

If I am wrong please let me know, my goal is to improve gameplay. Maybe I need to use smoke more or I'm missing something.



EDIT

Thank you for your time and comments, many people suggest that I use more ARTY and AIR to control the field of battle. I've been doing this but I might be using them incorrectly.

The main decks I use are "American Armored Deck" "American Airborn Deck" "Canadian Deck"

On the german side I use The Armored Decks and INF decks

I agree that the Allies have alot of flexability, maybe everything is on my end (Get Gud Kid), I'm going to do more research/watch other people to find out.

Some suggest that I post replays, I will as soon as I find out how.

Others also give advice about ambush tactics. Or waiting for german tanks to get close before firing. I will attempt this. Another thing that was recommended was to ambush with more shermans and AT, Gotta try that also.

Its a good point that 200 points retreating is better than nothing. But what about the vetrancy of allied tanks. It seems like they miss too often. I just want an allied tank on the amercian decks than could hold a field like a Tiger, it doesnt even need good armor. Just a gun with good pen and vetrancy.

Plus the allied tanks are really expensive. What do you think about lowering the cost of Allied Armor in general?

Also, what about german tanks that dont advance but hold a field at max range in a bush. I see many people use the range of Tigers or Panthers to make a push that I cant counter very well because either their AA is too thick or my tanks/AT cant get close.
In this scenario I cant ambush because their infantry will find the AT and my positions. Then the germans can make a push to take more ground.

All Im saying is this, the german player does not need to place the King Tiger or heavy tanks in harms way. Just sit at max range and wait because Allied tanks cant reach them and the AT cant reach them.
I dont know how to push a King Tiger in the middle of a field with good AA cover. Yes I could use ARTY, but normally it just comes back or I run out of ARTY ammo ( even with supply trucks)

I would normally want to go around a Tiger/Panther, however this is extremely difficult when facing a good player.

I admit that I'm likely not using some things correctly, but I'd like to think that I've been using things mostly correct.
Again thanks for the advice and your time, have a wonderful day!

EDIT

PS

This is not about historical accuracy, its about the game. Please talk about gameplay problems. Not to totally rule out historical issues. But please focus on the topic at hand and leave historical stuff for another time. Thank you.

[archonsod]

Escrito originalmente por {Sol} Vepr:

Yes I could use arty to stunlock the germans, however this seems to be the only way to advance or destroy the higher class german tanks. Yet, even when stunlocked the allied tanks miss far too often to take any advantage, plus they cant even pen the german tanks.

Allied tanks aren't the best weapon against Axis tanks in the first place, so if you're forced to use tanks then yes, you'll need to move in force and outnumber them significantly if you want to do much damage. Make sure you're flanking them or moving to the rear to take advantage of the weaker armour when possible.

Also take note of how the morale system works. A 200 point tank doing nothing but retreating is still 200 points wasted for your opponent, even if you don't destroy it. Even better is a 200 point tank retreating into that bazooka squad it didn't spot while advancing.

The AT guns only die to arty or air before they can be used properly.

Hint - if the enemy know the AT gun is there, you're not using them properly :) AT guns work best from ambush (and those 17 pounders can be absolute murder when used correctly). They've got a decent range, so you shouldn't have any issues keeping them under your AA bubble (although building an effective AA bubble is a separate thing altogether).
Spend time learning how the spotting system works. Turn off the AT's main gun when it's not needed to prevent it giving away it's position. Hunt down and eliminate enemy recon units with extreme prejudice. Learn how to shoot and scoot (i.e. after the AT has attacked a tank or two, move it).
For the heavier tanks you can often go by the maxim of throwing enough stuff until something sticks. Don't rely just on the AT guns or tank hunters to take them out; better to have the AT guns, tank hunters, air and infantry AT teams hitting it at the same time. Another thing to keep in mind is even if your penetration chance is low it can still be worth shooting for the morale hit - once a unit hits 'shaken' it gets some pretty significant penalties to accuracy (one reason why it's nearly always better to have veterans).

[Varenvel The Festive Dinosaur]

Escrito originalmente por archonsod:

Escrito originalmente por {Sol} Vepr:

Yes I could use arty to stunlock the germans, however this seems to be the only way to advance or destroy the higher class german tanks. Yet, even when stunlocked the allied tanks miss far too often to take any advantage, plus they cant even pen the german tanks.

Allied tanks aren't the best weapon against Axis tanks in the first place, so if you're forced to use tanks then yes, you'll need to move in force and outnumber them significantly if you want to do much damage. Make sure you're flanking them or moving to the rear to take advantage of the weaker armour when possible.

Also take note of how the morale system works. A 200 point tank doing nothing but retreating is still 200 points wasted for your opponent, even if you don't destroy it. Even better is a 200 point tank retreating into that bazooka squad it didn't spot while advancing.

The AT guns only die to arty or air before they can be used properly.

Hint - if the enemy know the AT gun is there, you're not using them properly :) AT guns work best from ambush (and those 17 pounders can be absolute murder when used correctly). They've got a decent range, so you shouldn't have any issues keeping them under your AA bubble (although building an effective AA bubble is a separate thing altogether).
Spend time learning how the spotting system works. Turn off the AT's main gun when it's not needed to prevent it giving away it's position. Hunt down and eliminate enemy recon units with extreme prejudice. Learn how to shoot and scoot (i.e. after the AT has attacked a tank or two, move it).
For the heavier tanks you can often go by the maxim of throwing enough stuff until something sticks. Don't rely just on the AT guns or tank hunters to take them out; better to have the AT guns, tank hunters, air and infantry AT teams hitting it at the same time. Another thing to keep in mind is even if your penetration chance is low it can still be worth shooting for the morale hit - once a unit hits 'shaken' it gets some pretty significant penalties to accuracy (one reason why it's nearly always better to have veterans).

Problem with all logic i see everyone , people alweys asume its 1on1 battles

You all know what Witman did , its only of few examples , games never show how real battle is , so you cant balance out game , basing on realism

[Wilh]

Escrito originalmente por Magni:

Escrito originalmente por Fenris:

[V-M] Zacheria Malfor +1 for you pal

omar_uav the first use of the short 90 mm gun was at the battle of the bulge, SO DEAL WITH IT, and the 90 mm gun would not change ♥♥♥♥, because it was maby as good as the german KWK 42 (Panther gun) but a kingtiger would still not get frontal pened by it, but the Kingtiger will frontal pen the M26 or jackson from 1 km away

Uh huh.

90mm M3 at 1000 meters: 151mm penetration with APCBC, 245mm with HVAP
8.8cm KwK 43 at 1000 m: 165mm penetration with APCBC, 193 with APCR
7.5cm KwK 42 at 1000 m: 112mm penetration with APCBC, 149mm with APCR

90mm HVAP goes straight through the front of a King Tiger at 1000m like it's not even there even if we assume it to be that one mythical King Tiger that won the lottery and doesn't have ♥♥♥♥♥♥ low-quality over-hardened armor plates. And the KwK 42's APCR (which any given Panther crew would be exceedingly lucky to have more than one or two shells of) barely equals the normal APCBC shell of the 90mm.

Yes first of all i would really like to know where you got those numbers. The 7.5cm KwK 42 could penetrate 149mm with apcbc and 199mm with apcr at 1000m.


Page 119 for Germany and page 121 for US.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/219173969/WWII-Ballistics-Armor-and-Gunnery

[Magni]

Escrito originalmente por Fenris:

shure that this isn`t the Long 90 mm?

It's the 90mm gun M3. The one used by the M36 Jackson and the M26 Pershing. No, it's not the 90mm T15 that was tested out on the Super Pershing. That thing achieved ~200mm pen at a thousand yards with standard APCBC and 302mm with HVAP.

Escrito originalmente por c0dex Unleashed3k:

Nice, but you're fantasy forgot, that HVAP wasn't used/available in the first battles the M26 encountered at all.

So what you're saying is that it would be "only" about 10-15mm of pen worse than the KwK 43 with its standard shell (none of the guns in-game are using APCR/HVAP unless it was the only type of ammo they used), which game-wise would put it at ~AP 20-21.

[Fenris]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/8,8-cm-PaK_43

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/90_mm_Gun_M1/M2/M3

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/7,5-cm-KwK_42

that is what i could finde about the pen, alteast he where right about the KWK 42, but the 88 had a bit more pen, and his 90mm stats are for 90 degrees

[Wilh]

Escrito originalmente por Fenris:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/8,8-cm-PaK_43

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/90_mm_Gun_M1/M2/M3

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/7,5-cm-KwK_42

that is what i could finde about the pen, alteast he where right about the KWK 42, but the 88 had a bit more pen

Once you start throwing credible sources on him he runs away, quite easy to make him look like a fool if you read books.

[Fenris]

so the 90 mm would change nothing, so far as i know HVAP got first used in the Korea war, but sorry for my own mistake on the 90 mm M3 gun, i thought it was weaker, but now we know the real stats ^^

[Wilh]

Escrito originalmente por Fenris:

so the 90 mm would change nothing, so far as i know HVAP got first used in the Korea war, but sorry for my own mistake on the 90 mm M3 gun, i thought it was weaker, but now we know the real stats ^^

Check my post under his for the real performance.

[Unleashed3k]

Escrito originalmente por Magni:

Escrito originalmente por Fenris:

shure that this isn`t the Long 90 mm?

It's the 90mm gun M3. The one used by the M36 Jackson and the M26 Pershing. No, it's not the 90mm T15 that was tested out on the Super Pershing. That thing achieved ~200mm pen at a thousand yards with standard APCBC and 302mm with HVAP.

Escrito originalmente por c0dex Unleashed3k:

Nice, but you're fantasy forgot, that HVAP wasn't used/available in the first battles the M26 encountered at all.

So what you're saying is that it would be "only" about 10-15mm of pen worse than the KwK 43 with its standard shell (none of the guns in-game are using APCR/HVAP unless it was the only type of ammo they used), which game-wise would put it at ~AP 20-21.

??? ehm.. what?

[Josh]

i dont understand all these ....ist a game ...nothin to do with reality. ...Even guys who say...look at the stats ...look at wiki....this has nothin to do with reality.
Front report of a Tiger I E in 1943....it was reportet that the tank was hit over 320 Times by AT and Tank fire from Allied AT guns and Tanks. And the Tank was still operational. That is History and was real, but how to put such a thing into numbers of a game. I mean even the weapon range of arty and tanks are fantasy. And even Wiki stats are hypothetical....Reality differs always....

But its a must, otherwise you want it real...then give Germany 1 plane against 100....and 1 tank against 20....and little fuel and no wolfram for AT Ammo and so on..

dont waster you time with such threads.....If you loose....try to make it better...look for solutions ....or play german tank div and see what others do against you.....what ever

[Fenris]

SdKFz 234 the thing is people who played this game for maby 30 H are complaining about things that makes no sense, "Germans OP" ehm no the 17 PDR can kill a KT from 800 m away, instead of using their brain they go to the formuns and complain. just wair for 3 month and all will know how to kill a KT

[Finnefeuer]

German overpriced tanks are op. "Aha"

[Fenris]

Escrito originalmente por Finnefeuer:

German overpriced tanks are op. "Aha"

yeah dont ask -.-, hey german tanks one shot my tank from 1 km away, no ♥♥♥♥ sherlock, that is what they where build for.

[Captain Jack]

Escrito originalmente por Finnefeuer:

German overpriced tanks are op. "Aha"

Great addition to the discussion

[Karl Fletcher]

Balance comes before everything