Guards Armoured Division Underpowered?

[Karl Fletcher]

This is a British Armoured division that is probably the worst armoured division in the game. It is laughable compared to 3rd Armoured, Panzer-Lehr, 116. Panzer or the French. I see three main reasons as why this deck is so bad.

1) There is a lack of Veterency. At best, you can get some Sherman V Command Tanks with one star of vet (mainly in C-Phase) and single vetted Fireflies in C. Infantry isn't much better, as practically all the infantry lack vet apart from C-Phase infantry which is where rival divisions are at their strongest.

2) AP for the deck is low, barring some 17-Pounders in B, and the Fireflies and Achilles in C. The Panzer IV is just straight up better compared to the Cromwell, and while the Cromwell is faster, on larger maps there is no room to flank to take advantage of that. The deck doesn't have many alternate ways to deal with armoured threats like the King Tiger or Jagdpanther.

3) Tanks lack armour. Compared to many other divisions, the Guards highest armour is 11, which means practically any AT can one-shot them. 3rd has the Jumbo to soak up hits and most German divisions have StuGs, Panthers, Tigers and King Tigers plus Jagdtanks which are much more heavily armoured (even the equivilant to the Cromwell, the Panzer IV has more AP and armour).

This isn't to say that Guards Armoured doesn't have its own benefits, but the benefits it has doesn't outweigh its negatives in my opinion. The main benefits of the Guards are that it has the best income overall compared to the other divisions in game and the cheapest prices for most of its stuff as well as unit availability in general.

But thats just not much of a benefit. British Infantry just aren't as good as American Infantry or Canadian infantry, and even at 20 points per British Rifles, they lack AT and can't compete much in town fighting or forest fighting. 17-pounders come in too few numbers to help.

There is access to Cromwells in A-Phase which is an advantage as well, but that too is countered by 116 having much more. Panzer having the same advantage but much better, which pretty much sums up the Guards Armoured.

I think, the division in my opinion needs some quality of life changes. I don't believe we need to churn out a lot of veterency to the division, but there needs to more ways to help round-out the curve when Axis heavies start to hit the field as well. I just doesn't have any one thing it does better than anyone else to really focus on.

[Captain Jack]

I was surprised that there weren't more high vet tanks in the Household division if I'm totally honest, I'm fine with low vet infantry. Speaking of veterancy in British divisions, the 15th could do with having a few more 1 star rifle sections

[Karl Fletcher]

Originally posted by Captain Jack:

I was surprised that there weren't more high vet tanks in the Household division if I'm totally honest, I'm fine with low vet infantry. Speaking of veterancy in British divisions, the 15th could do with having a few more 1 star rifle sections

I could be wrong, but they were a pretty new division that ended up taking huge losses. They did score the first kill on Tiger IIs though (which funny enough, this deck struggles with).

I don't mind the lack of vetted Infantry, but the lack of vetted tanks is pretty jarring and having alot of cheap tanks doesn't suddenly make them good when the every Axis division has access to tanks in A mostly and B definetely, to kill them without pressure.

3 plane slots means can't use superior planes to really help out as well.

[MR_SANDMAN]

It's truly ♥♥♥♥ in its current state, if the tanks can't get stars then arty and anti tank guns should.

[Captain Jack]

Originally posted by Amonkhet:

Originally posted by Captain Jack:

I was surprised that there weren't more high vet tanks in the Household division if I'm totally honest, I'm fine with low vet infantry. Speaking of veterancy in British divisions, the 15th could do with having a few more 1 star rifle sections

I could be wrong, but they were a pretty new division that ended up taking huge losses. They did score the first kill on Tiger IIs though (which funny enough, this deck struggles with).

I don't mind the lack of vetted Infantry, but the lack of vetted tanks is pretty jarring and having alot of cheap tanks doesn't suddenly make them good when the every Axis division has access to tanks in A mostly and B definetely, to kill them without pressure.

3 plane slots means can't use superior planes to really help out as well.

You're right about the scots, But the fact they're a new division with no vet and yet 2db has veterans coming out their ears seems a bit fishy to me

[Karl Fletcher]

Oh, I was speaking about the Guards. 15th Scottish do need some more one star inf too.

[Captain Jack]

Originally posted by Amonkhet:

Oh, I was speaking about the Guards. 15th Scottish do need some more one star inf too.

Yeah, I don't really see a reason to take the 15th at the moment

you're dead on about the guards, they need a couple more stars on tanks, infantry having no vet isn't hurting them since its only for flushing out AT guns and holding ground

[Karl Fletcher]

Just had a match that shows this spectacularly. Was up against a Lehr player and someone supporting him with artillery. I can't push with my A Phase cromwells aggressively when hes fielding Pumas which are better in every way.

Any AT Guns I had got artillery destroyed, and my four 25 Pounders couldnt kill all the arty. By the time the Tigers hit, I really struggled to do much of anything simply because there is no breakthrough factor.

Unvetted Cromwells and Shermans versus Tigers and only single-card fireflies in B lol.

[Jonnydodger]

General consensus on the Paradox forums is they need some slight balancing. Main ideas are:

• Give vet to their infantry. They are the Guards, after all.
  
• Give vet to their tanks, especially the early Fireflies and Cromwells. I think Eugen doesn't want to give them vet though (possibly on the idea that Normandy was the first time the crews were in these tanks).
  
• Put AECs in the support tab. Like how the Polish get Staghounds in support.
  
• Buffing Cromwells in terms of price. I honestly think they could get an armour buff as well.
  
• Giving them Churchill Mk.VIIs. Because it turns out Cromwell VIIs (the slightly more armoured Cromwell in B) weren't really used before 1945. So it's possible that Eugen made a small mistake reguarding the name.

While we're on the topic of Churchill Mk.VIIs and its varients, their model is incorrect. The side hatches and the driver's hatch are square, instead of circular like they were IRL.

[Karl Fletcher]

Originally posted by Jonnydodger:

General consensus on the Paradox forums is they need some slight balancing. Main ideas are:

• Give vet to their infantry. They are the Guards, after all.
  
• Give vet to their tanks, especially the early Fireflies and Cromwells. I think Eugen doesn't want to give them vet though (possibly on the idea that Normandy was the first time the crews were in these tanks).
  
• Put AECs in the support tab. Like how the Polish get Staghounds in support.
  
• Buffing Cromwells in terms of price. I honestly think they could get an armour buff as well.
  
• Giving them Churchill Mk.VIIs. Because it turns out Cromwell VIIs (the slightly more armoured Cromwell in B) weren't really used before 1945. So it's possible that Eugen made a small mistake reguarding the name.

While we're on the topic of Churchill Mk.VIIs and its varients, their model is incorrect. The side hatches and the driver's hatch are square, instead of circular like they were IRL.

Yeah, this would be good. I can't see how having Vet 1 and 2 Cromwells would hurt the balance of the game, yet would make them more viable.

[Succulent Chinese Meal]

Originally posted by Amonkhet:

Originally posted by Jonnydodger:

General consensus on the Paradox forums is they need some slight balancing. Main ideas are:

• Give vet to their infantry. They are the Guards, after all.
  
• Give vet to their tanks, especially the early Fireflies and Cromwells. I think Eugen doesn't want to give them vet though (possibly on the idea that Normandy was the first time the crews were in these tanks).
  
• Put AECs in the support tab. Like how the Polish get Staghounds in support.
  
• Buffing Cromwells in terms of price. I honestly think they could get an armour buff as well.
  
• Giving them Churchill Mk.VIIs. Because it turns out Cromwell VIIs (the slightly more armoured Cromwell in B) weren't really used before 1945. So it's possible that Eugen made a small mistake reguarding the name.

While we're on the topic of Churchill Mk.VIIs and its varients, their model is incorrect. The side hatches and the driver's hatch are square, instead of circular like they were IRL.

Yeah, this would be good. I can't see how having Vet 1 and 2 Cromwells would hurt the balance of the game, yet would make them more viable.

Seems they aren't going with vetting tanks for historical reasons not balance ones, and I can understand that. As they're other more historical solutions to potentially buffing the division.

[Captain Jack]

Originally posted by NorthernGangsta:

Originally posted by Amonkhet:

Yeah, this would be good. I can't see how having Vet 1 and 2 Cromwells would hurt the balance of the game, yet would make them more viable.

Seems they aren't going with vetting tanks for historical reasons not balance ones, and I can understand that. As they're other more historical solutions to potentially buffing the division.

The french division has quite a few vetted units despite having around the same combat experience as the 15th. the only true vets in that division are the Nueve

[Karl Fletcher]

Originally posted by NorthernGangsta:

Originally posted by Amonkhet:

Yeah, this would be good. I can't see how having Vet 1 and 2 Cromwells would hurt the balance of the game, yet would make them more viable.

Seems they aren't going with vetting tanks for historical reasons not balance ones, and I can understand that. As they're other more historical solutions to potentially buffing the division.

Yeah. Make the Phase A command Cromwell give 2-3 Cromwells and double the A Phase Cromwell from 2 to 4 on its card. That should balance it against the large number of Panzer IIIs that Windhund can bring (which can kill a Cromwell in one hit)

If the French can have a ton of veterency, so can the Guards. Or we're gonna need Churchills.

[Jonnydodger]

Originally posted by Amonkhet:

Originally posted by NorthernGangsta:

Seems they aren't going with vetting tanks for historical reasons not balance ones, and I can understand that. As they're other more historical solutions to potentially buffing the division.

Yeah. Make the Phase A command Cromwell give 2-3 Cromwells and double the A Phase Cromwell from 2 to 4 on its card. That should balance it against the large number of Panzer IIIs that Windhund can bring (which can kill a Cromwell in one hit)

If the French can have a ton of veterency, so can the Guards. Or we're gonna need Churchills.

Probably gonna get a Cromwell buff. I would like a 1-2 armour point buff, along with a price and avalibility buff. The Cromwell VII's will probably get replaced by Churchill Mk.VII's as they only saw very late war service.
So replacing a fast 11 armour tank that didn't exist in the AOE with a slow 15 armoured one that did is a good deal for me.
More infantry and more vet for said infantry would be nice as well. Maybe more Shermans as well.

[Succulent Chinese Meal]

Originally posted by Captain Jack:

Originally posted by NorthernGangsta:

Seems they aren't going with vetting tanks for historical reasons not balance ones, and I can understand that. As they're other more historical solutions to potentially buffing the division.

The french division has quite a few vetted units despite having around the same combat experience as the 15th. the only true vets in that division are the Nueve

Not sure about that, the 15th spent its time training in Britain while the French were fighting in Africa. Sure most of their veterans were sent home but some stayed and some of the replacements had combat experience.

Also just giving them more tanks instead of making the ones they have uber-elite megamen sounds fine to me Amonkhet, as their uber-elite men traditionally came from their Infantry. So in a circular argument its back to buffing their infantry and not their tanks.

Edit: Although fixing their mistake and giving the Guards a decent Churchill instead of another Cromwell will probably help alleviate the problem on its own.

[Captain Jack]

Originally posted by NorthernGangsta:

Originally posted by Captain Jack:

The french division has quite a few vetted units despite having around the same combat experience as the 15th. the only true vets in that division are the Nueve

Not sure about that, the 15th spent its time training in Britain while the French were fighting in Africa. Sure most of their veterans were sent home but some stayed and some of the replacements had combat experience.

Also just giving them more tanks instead of making the ones they have uber-elite megamen sounds fine to me Amonkhet, as their uber-elite men traditionally came from their Infantry. So in a circular argument its back to buffing their infantry and not their tanks.

there wasn't a terribly large amount of them in NA and they weren't doing an awful lot of fighting compared to the brits