Ending questions (Spoilers)

[Mecahawk]

I have a few questions I wanted to pose because I'm not sure I understood a lot of the ending. I thought most of the game was fantastic, but the ending left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

Was the ending meant as social criticism of the Danganronpa players and community? Supposedly the audience turns over a new leaf but they STILL decide not to save Tsumugi or K1-B0 in the end.

Are they computer generated in a cyber world, or are they real physical people with their memories blanked and rewritten? It indicates the latter, but it seems strange to me that they would kill real physical people when in Danganronpa 2, it's all virtual and everyone lives and comes back.

Did they ever explain who Kaede's sister was?

Also, one of the outside world audience looked like Ron Paul to me.

[WizoDard]

Originally posted by Electronic Toaster:

Originally posted by 星の天使:

Talk about the floors map shown on the survivor perk, it doesn't have "all" the labs. Kokichi's lab isn't shown on that map. And it seems like there is no way to find out, it doesn't have a path with access. It is buried deep underground, they just discovered it after a boulder breaks the floor. Does this mean they want to hide it?
About Keebo's rampage, its said that he optained the equipment in his own lab, it's likely Tsumugi deliberately let him destroy the school, allow the unaccessible labs to be discovered.

I think it's possible that Tsumugi left all that stuff accessible. But I find it harder to argue that Keebo was delierately set up to act the way he did at that specific time. The control systems linked up to the voting(or not depending if there is an audience) were damaged during Kaito's execution by a stray rock. Doesn't make it impossible, just seems less likely that Tsumugi planned that rock. Keebo only resorted to weaponry after losing 'hope' or the voice inside or the control. He returned to peaceful mode after control was reestablished. So it's possible for the weapons to always be available and Keebo to have never decided to use them because of the control system that would argue against their use.

It is always possible that Tsumugi left the weapons out and knew what Keebo would do when off his control leash as a later action she could take. But it seems unlikely that that was the chosen time.

Tsumugi isn't Junko though, she's not the Ultimate Analyst. Tsumugi would never be able to guess Kiibo going on a rampage, let alone him opening the door to the secret room, Ouma's lab, and Rantarou's lab. You also said that she planned Kiibo losing his antenna, but that would mean she planned for Kaito's execution to fail. Everyone saw how ***TRIGGERED*** Monokuma was when he saw that Kaito cheated the execution. He didn't even pay attention to the fact that Kiibo protected them from the rocks...And even though she left all that stuff accessible, everyone in the group knew that Kiibo had extreme morals against modifying his body. If you now say that she planned him modifying his body, then you would have to say that she planned for him to lose his antenna, which, remember, was the twist factor of this game that let the audience interact with the Killing Game members. So she would forcibly be taking away the added twist factor, and would've had to predict Kaito failing his execution. And don't even think, all you people against my side, about resorting to the argument that Tsumugi wrote the story of events so that would cover everything I said, and in fact it would. She said during the trial she wrote Kaito's sickness, which would in turn mean she wrote his failed execution, and wrote Kiibo's outrage. But if you follow through with this idea then you will have to say that she wrote her own loss and the end of the Killing Game. Let's be real, she didn't expect it to end at all and totally thought she was going to win...

[WizoDard]

Originally posted by Inkie:

Originally posted by WizoDard:

Well Fedex, congratulations, you proved all of the others wrong about Tsumugi faking the video just by citing some text and throwing ideas around. You already proved with a couple of quotes that Rantarou created himself, by the way he worded the video, and that the tablet was enough to lead him to the secret door. Also, he was never intended to go to the secret door in the first place. Tsumugi just threw it in as a perk to winning the previous game, and at the same time as a fact of how to ramp up the excitement in the game. Excitement as in distrust towards others, hence why Rantarou said not to tell anyone or they might kill you. He said that because the pad itself was a motive to kill, and if they found the pad early it would stir-up the entire Killing Game. I am not sure about the barrier around their fictional world, but we can be sure that they at least were in some type of video game just by the ending. Although it makes me think of The Hunger Games, that's a little different, but around the same concept. I do believe though that the school was being built as we went on because at the beginning of every chapter Shuuichi noted that more and more trees and rocks were disappearing, implying that there was progress going on. And we saw them working the entire time anyway. In short, that map layout was like a blueprint of what was already going to be built but wasn't there yet.

Aren't you contradicting yourself there? That's just more the reason why Tsumugi would've wanted those survivor perks the way they are, while Rantaro himself would not.

I did say in there that she would put that trap there herself, but it always goes back to she ended up killing herself. She wouldn't need to lure him into a trap in the first place, and the entire case of Chapter 1 relied on Kaede's plan. If you continue with your idea you would have to agree that she ended up killing herself. She said that she wrote the story of V3, which doesn't make sense in itself, but then that would mean she wrote Kaede's plan failing and her getting caught for covering up the plan. So in the end there would be no reason to cause this trap in the first place. She had no reason to kill Rantarou, he didn't have, as far as we knew, any clue she was the mastermind and the Survivor Perk wasn't a threat to her at all since she kept certain rooms hidden on the map. And you said that she wanted to kick off the Killing Game, then why do it in a fashion where it ultimately leads to her downfall in the end?

[Inkie]

Originally posted by WizoDard:

Let's be real, she didn't expect it to end at all and totally thought she was going to win...

She is in killing game herself tho. If she is indeed the Mastermind, she either had to have full control (which i have to agree isn't possible, Flashback lights having multiple options to choose from proves what she knew it too), or she knew from the start she might not survive that and still went along with taking part in killing game. So yea, there's no way she didn't expect to die.

[Inkie]

Originally posted by WizoDard:

She said that she wrote the story of V3, which doesn't make sense in itself

Actually, you know what, i agree. It is dumb. To be in this killing game, she either had to be Junko's levels of crazy without all the smart, or simply got ♥♥♥♥♥♥ over by Team Dangan.

[Electronic Toaster]

Kokichi threw Tsumugi's plan off course. By pretending to be the mastermind and revealing the outside world earlier than expected. Tsumugi tried to rein it in by creating the Hope's Peak memory from scratch but made some mistakes. Then Kokichi planned a murder that was almost unsolvable, so Tsumugi and Monokuma had to participate. Then when they tried to execute Kaito, it failed. And at the end of Katio's execution, the rocks damage Keebo's antennae which leads to him trying to destroy the school. And when Keebo destroys the school he reveals a whole bunch of other stuff that was planned for later.

But the reality/unreality of this game doesn't matter, I don't think. I think the point is to have a fiction that is all consuming. So anything happening, as long as people keep watching, is good. There is no point or truth to prove. The goal is for people to want to keep watching the lies, rather than dealing with reality. Hope and Despair help keep the lies interesting.

[LightlySalted]

I recommend reading the wikis. With all these theories thrown around, it gets confusing. Being a wiki, you might take it with a grain of salt, but it helps to have it all laid out; the info does fit well together. Most of my questions were pretty much answered (unless it was stated to be ambiguitious), besides the Rantaro tape in his unbuilt lab part.

That being said, on topic, I consider Rantaro and Kibo to be controlled wildcards to make things more exciting. Tsumugi had the advantage most of the game, and did not want to lose the killing game overall. Rantaro had extra information like the secret library door, and chose to investigate it, but the door was like a red herring. Tsumugi did not need to use that door at all. With Kibo, he had access to his weapons in his lab. He "chose," aka the audience chose, not to use the weapons.

[Inkie]

Originally posted by LightlySalted:

I recommend reading the wikis. With all these theories thrown around, it gets confusing. Being a wiki, you might take it with a grain of salt, but it helps to have it all laid out; the info does fit well together. Most of my questions were pretty much answered (unless it was stated to be ambiguitious), besides the Rantaro tape in his unbuilt lab part.

Jeez, i went and checked Tsumugi page first and i have to ask: Just who does that to wikis? It's someone's assumptions thrown together with what were actually described in the game. Its not even that different to what we were and are arguing about.

[Electronic Toaster]

I forgot about this earlier, but the whole reason that Rantaro and Kaede/ Shuichi had their plan was because Monokuma was destroyed in the first place. The plan would only work because Monokuma had to be replaced. And the reason Monokuma was destroyed was because one of the Monokubs stepped on him with an exisal. So Tsumugi also had control of the situation that could set up Rantaro. Nobody else beside the mastermind using the Exisals would really have the ability to destroy a Monokuma. Or only the mastermind could set Monokuma up to be destroyed. So the lead up was in the control of the mastermind, and it seems clear that the set up it self was engineered, because it was only because of the surivivor Monopad that Rantaro did what he did. And Rantao also did what he did because only one entrance was shown on his map, and so did not plan for the eventuality of the mastermind being able to enter the room secretly.

So Rantaro was meant to be at the centre of a giant set up, mostly likely the intention of which was increased suspicion by another classmate and culminating in murder.

And since the first perk was to kill someone without punishment, this murder had many reasons to occur.

[WizoDard]

Originally posted by Electronic Toaster:

I forgot about this earlier, but the whole reason that Rantaro and Kaede/ Shuichi had their plan was because Monokuma was destroyed in the first place. The plan would only work because Monokuma had to be replaced. And the reason Monokuma was destroyed was because one of the Monokubs stepped on him with an exisal. So Tsumugi also had control of the situation that could set up Rantaro. Nobody else beside the mastermind using the Exisals would really have the ability to destroy a Monokuma. Or only the mastermind could set Monokuma up to be destroyed. So the lead up was in the control of the mastermind, and it seems clear that the set up it self was engineered, because it was only because of the surivivor Monopad that Rantaro did what he did. And Rantao also did what he did because only one entrance was shown on his map, and so did not plan for the eventuality of the mastermind being able to enter the room secretly.

So Rantaro was meant to be at the centre of a giant set up, mostly likely the intention of which was increased suspicion by another classmate and culminating in murder.

And since the first perk was to kill someone without punishment, this murder had many reasons to occur.

So in other words Tsumugi was setting Rantarou up to die in the first place: to either be convicted as the person who gets the first kill for free and is distrusted by the rest for doing it, or to be the person who ends up dying. So she did plan it all out...But in the way the others thought. The video had nothing to do with it other than another piece of evidence that the Rantarou from the past left behind.

[WizoDard]

Originally posted by Inkie:

Originally posted by LightlySalted:

I recommend reading the wikis. With all these theories thrown around, it gets confusing. Being a wiki, you might take it with a grain of salt, but it helps to have it all laid out; the info does fit well together. Most of my questions were pretty much answered (unless it was stated to be ambiguitious), besides the Rantaro tape in his unbuilt lab part.

Jeez, i went and checked Tsumugi page first and i have to ask: Just who does that to wikis? It's someone's assumptions thrown together with what were actually described in the game. Its not even that different to what we were and are arguing about.

Originally posted by LightlySalted:

I recommend reading the wikis. With all these theories thrown around, it gets confusing. Being a wiki, you might take it with a grain of salt, but it helps to have it all laid out; the info does fit well together. Most of my questions were pretty much answered (unless it was stated to be ambiguitious), besides the Rantaro tape in his unbuilt lab part.

That being said, on topic, I consider Rantaro and Kibo to be controlled wildcards to make things more exciting. Tsumugi had the advantage most of the game, and did not want to lose the killing game overall. Rantaro had extra information like the secret library door, and chose to investigate it, but the door was like a red herring. Tsumugi did not need to use that door at all. With Kibo, he had access to his weapons in his lab. He "chose," aka the audience chose, not to use the weapons.

Well the wikis are just theories and interpretations too, they just contain some amount of quotes and evidence in them. And as I was scrolling through Tsumugi's wiki, I found it funny how if you ask anyone how relevant Tsumugi is up until Chapter 6 they'll say she was basically a filler character, but other than the protagonist she has the longest wiki page out of them all, xD. Because she is the antagonist...Well played. Kodaka was psychologically tricking us by having Tsumugi repeatedly say she was just plain and normal, so we thought she didn't have any important roles in the story, when she did more than everyone else, xD.
Even in the first sentence when you meet her she says, " 'Oh, my name is Tsumugi Shirogane. I'm the Ultimate Cosplayer. Are you... surprised? I get that a lot, since I'm so plain.' ". IT WAS A TRAP! xD.

[WizoDard]

To add to the discussion I would just like to point out quickly what Tsumugi says before she dies that seems like a major clue a lot of people were ignoring.
" I worked so hard to keep this going for 53 seasons and now it's all over...Well, that's fine... If this world is a world without killing games now...I don't want to be part of it. I have no interest in a world without Danganronpa. "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxXRXhJs2y0
It happens at exactly 1 hour and 33 minutes into the video.
On these quotes I would like to add two points:
1. Tsumugi flat out says that she was the mastermind of all the 53 killing games in this world, and she even said in the beginning of the trial, " I AM JUNKO ENOSHIMA THE 53RD! ". Meaning she's been recreating them for all of the seasons before. This brings into question her age though.
2. She said she didn't want to be part of the world anymore. Could she just be talking about the fictional world itself and she doesn't want to go live in it anymore so she'll go back to the real world instead. And about her age, if she truly was living in this fictional world that would explain how she could be around for 53 seasons while looking like a teenager.
In conclusion, I think UDG2, which has basically been confirmed ( see new thread by Battler in the General Discussion ), is going to be about Shuuichi, Maki, and Himiko escaping into the real world where they try and fix the problems of how Tsumugi was able to make this occur. And, Tsumugi is the main antagonist of the game because she only died in the 53rd Killing Game and came back to the real world after that.

[WizoDard]

Okay after rewatching the ending of the game in Cinnamon Toast Ken's Let's Play, in my previous comment, it seems Shuuichi and them keep repeating, " Why are we alive? We were supposed to die. " meaning something else is going to happen to them because it was planned for them to live and Kiibo and Tsumugi to die...And about what I said above with Tsumugi being alive in UDG2, I change my mind. I think Tsumugi is officially dead and was a fictional character all along with all the others in V3 who didn't survive being fictional, but, when they get into the real world they will run into who Tsumugi was copying. Shuuichi even touches on the idea himself but then pushes it off. I will provide a transcript of it in a comment below this comment. ( next page )

[WizoDard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxXRXhJs2y0
The moment occurs in the video above at 1:39:40.

Present -
Maki: " A peaceful world with no fighting and no despair. That's what Tsumugi said, right? "
Shuuichi: " Yeah. Ah...if she wasn't lying. "
Himiko: " Nyeh!? It might be a lie!?
Shuuichi: " Remember...the last thing Tsumugi said? "
Flashback -
Tsumugi: " My plan was such a flawless copy, it even failed right at the end... So I should be able to hold my head up high as a cosplaycat criminal , right?
Present -
Shuuichi: " She said ' copy ' right? That means she must've been copying someone, right?
Himiko: " What does that mean? "
Shuuichi: " What indeed... *giggles* "

[WizoDard]

So in other words this transcript I have proved in the above comment proves two things:
That 1. The entire universe of Danganronpa was not fake and Tsumugi is referring to the real world Junko, because the details she gives are exactly what happened to Junko. Even saying, " ...it even failed right at the end... " referring to how Junko almost succeeded but failed and had to get executed. So Danganronpa does exist.
And 2. If Danganronpa is real that means that Shuuichi, Maki, and Himiko are real people too. At this point we should all know that Kodaka's true message in the game was that fictional experiences, although fake, can create real feelings and memories. This is him saying in a way that everyone who died in V3 was fake, and the world of V3 was fake, but even so everything that happened in their can still effect real people just like how we are talking about the end of the game on the thread right now. Now at the start of this point I said that it would mean the survivors are real people, but I haven't said anything about why I thought that, well, the reason they keep questioning why they're alive is because all the logic before the execution points to them dying. But then afterwards they keep questioning why they're alive and how they thought that was the end. Shuuichi then brings up, " That's right. In addition to ending this all... The outside world wanted us to live... ". So in other words he's saying that an outside force helped them survive. An automatic thought process would make you think that it was because they loved them, but that doesn't make sense. The outside world agreed with Shuuichi that they wanted this killing game to end, so then why is Shuuichi, Maki, and Himiko alive? I think it's because the people in UDG2 actually orchestrated this entire V3 Killing Game as a project to test whether fake events can affect a person's actual emotions and experiences...So they set up a path of events to occur that the real people in this killing game, Shuuichi, Maki, and Himiko, had to experience. This could explain why Tsumugi said that all of the events in V3 were scripted, and it would also explain why even her death could be scripted too. So after the execution it's literally the end of the V3 game and they get to escape into the real world back to where the people started this experiment on them are. ( not saying they'll wake up in a lab or some crap, but they will escape and find out all the events were fake, but they did in fact impact the real test subjects ) This idea can explain even more plotholes like Tsumugi's cospox: the reason it's a very subjective topic is because it was fake and didn't have a function to follow. Like a broken math equation, it didn't have rules to follow so she couldn't cosplay as Kaede, but then cosplayed as all of the other Danganronpa characters. Tsumugi was in fact fake, along with everyone else who died, besides Shuuichi, Maki, and Himiko.
But I'm just throwing some ideas out in my head after rewatching the ending of the game after I threw myself into this crap discussion, and I also want to stir the discussion even more by putting out if this theory sounds logical and good or not.

[WizoDard]

I encourage people to go replay the ending ceremony with a new, " lens " or perspective on and viewing this ending in a new light. Especially since I just watched more of the video and it seems Shuuichi confirms the outside world of Hope's Peak is real, and he touches more on the beginning auditions that Tsumugi showed them. He even says that he refuses to believe that they participated in this killing game by their own will...And Kodaka already said all you need to do is compare the end and beginning prologue images to find the true meaning. AKA it wasn't their will to participate and this was an experiment against their will. Shuuichi also says that it is only his belief that it was against their will, and he has no logic behind it. But at this point we know the difference between the two Ultimate Detectives is that one uses logic for everything and the other uses logic and mainly emotions to come to logical conclusions.
I also noticed while rewatching the ending that the true theme of the ending really hit me. That lies affect the real world, and it can change things. I think the reason Kodaka wasn't able to accurately get across the theme well enough was because he had rewrote and rewrote the ending so much that the fictional world twist meant nothing to him. As us going through it for out first time, the fictional world twist overshadows the real meaning. But now that I can see all of this discussion and go back with a new perspective and realize what the true theme was, I understand what he meant.
The ending illudes to a sequel btw because it says that, " the story lives on in the other side ". Clearly a sequel coming.