Questions about the 52th game

[oursjulien]

Hello guys ^^

I have a few questions about the 52th game :

- Did Tsumugi , K1-B0 and Rantarô all participate in the 52th edition of Danganronpa ? (not so sure about Tsumugi)

- And they all were "executed" by being forced in participating into v3 ? But isn't that contradictory with the rule that says that the killing game must continue until just 2 students remain ?

- If the previous statement is true, that means that at the end of each Danganronpa game, a group of more than 2 students confronted Monokuma in some kind of trial where they voted for the 2 winners and those that would be executed by participating in the following game ??

- What happened to the 2 "true winners" of the previous game ? Because as fictionnal characters set up only for the game and with no memory of their previous self, they absolutely had nowhere to go ! So, did they go the Hunger Games way or not x) ?

- Why would Tsumugi even participate in these killing games ? I mean, what would happen to the game if the mastermind was suddenly killed by a unpremeditated murder set up by a student who had become berserk ? (just like in Mondo's case in Danganronpa 1 ) ?

[BeastBox]

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

Originally posted by BeastBox:

Despite examples of that exact thing happening? So what happens to them?

NORMAL survivors, I mean. And as for what happens to said normal survivors, I don't know. Doesn't make me wrong.

Define "normal survivor". I'm still unclear why you think Rantaro or anyone else would be some special exception. Again, everything the game communicates to us implies this is perfectly routine, and it makes logical sense in the context of a reality show (establishes continuity, gives a reward, keeps things interesting, etc). We're never given any explanation what happens to survivors EXCEPT this ... so this is likely all there is.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Originally posted by BeastBox:

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

NORMAL survivors, I mean. And as for what happens to said normal survivors, I don't know. Doesn't make me wrong.

Define "normal survivor". I'm still unclear why you think Rantaro or anyone else would be some special exception. Again, everything the game communicates to us implies this is perfectly routine, and it makes logical sense in the context of a reality show (establishes continuity, gives a reward, keeps things interesting, etc). We're never given any explanation what happens to survivors EXCEPT this ... so this is likely all there is.

Normal survivor, as in, the two people who survive the whole thing. Not the ones who completely break everything by revealing that everything is a reality show and then making the audience ragequit from the show. I've said why I think Rantaro is a special exception. Special perks, his own wording, and Shirogane calling replaying the killing game a "punishment". I don't see a damn thing that makes it seem like it's routine at all. Plus, think about it: This is likely a mystery series in universe just as much as outside of it. Having two people that appeared in the previous game again in the next one, every single time? That'd certainly get boring after a while. You gotta make that ♥♥♥♥ SPECIAL!

[BeastBox]

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

Normal survivor, as in, the two people who survive the whole thing. Not the ones who completely break everything by revealing that everything is a reality show and then making the audience ragequit from the show.

So how is Rantaro different from a "normal survivor"? Again, this just seems to be what happens. The dialogue in the game doesn't support your point of view.

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

I've said why I think Rantaro is a special exception. Special perks, his own wording

... that's not *why* Rantaro is a special exception. You're assuming he's special, and using his perks which you assume are special to justify why he's special. That's circular. It's just as simple to assume the perks are normal, which makes him normal, and again, there's evidence of this happening for the next season too. Unless you have an ACTUAL reason why Rantaro got those "special" perks in the first place, it seems sensible to just play Occam's Razor and believe they're simply not special. They're just part of the game. I'm pretty sure Tsumugi says that he got them for simply surviving ... doesn't get more normal than that. (pretty sure Rantaro also says this in his video).

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

Shirogane calling replaying the killing game a "punishment".

This is more of an overall plot inconsistency than anything specific to Rantaro. She's literally calling "being in the show" a punishment on-air, yet people are eagerly volunteering to sign up for the show? Either it's a plot hole or it's a lie, and in either case it's irrelevant to the specific discussion.

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

I don't see a damn thing that makes it seem like it's routine at all.

Except of course for everything I've said, right? :)

See, I've already felt the trauma of trying to explain basic things to you, so let's throw it up to the rest of the forum. Hey, everyone else! Battler said "It seems clear that Rantaro is a special exception." Personally, I think it came across as a standard mechanic of the show, for reasons given. What was YOUR impression? Did you feel like the game made Rantaro out to be a special circumstance in some way ... or does it just seem like survivors go on to have their memories rewiped and come back as returning champions?

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

Plus, think about it: This is likely a mystery series in universe just as much as outside of it. Having two people that appeared in the previous game again in the next one, every single time?

.... Junko and Monokuma?

[Battler Ushiromiya]

But the dialogue DOES support me. Not only is there ONE survivor, instead of two like hwo you would think in a normal situation, there's also the fact that Shirogane calls it a PUNISHMENT! WHY would she give a "punishment" to someone who survivs the game without ♥♥♥♥ going off the rails like it did here?

♥♥♥♥ off with that "plot inconsietency" ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. "It doesn't fit with my interpretation, so it has to be a plot hole". That's basically what that entire paragraph amounted to. They're signing up for the show because they're big enough fanboys that they don't give a ♥♥♥♥. Pretty damn sure they know the killings are real, based on the motive videos at the end. They don't give a ♥♥♥♥ about anything at that point. It's a punishment because something happened in the last game to cause the mastermind to issue a punishment for Rantaro to play the next game, doubling his chance of being killed.

Nothing you said convinced me in the slightest that it's routine.

Monokuma is the mascot, he gets an excuse. As for Junko, fans were getting tired of her constant reappearances, so that proves my point. Fans in universe would get tired of seeing two people from the last game appear in the next one every single time.

[BeastBox]

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

Nothing you said convinced me in the slightest that it's routine.

Nothing convinces you; you're a mindless fanboy and a waste of time to talk to. I specifically said I was talking to everyone else now .. I'm more interested in their input than yours at this point. Let's see what they have to say.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Originally posted by BeastBox:

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

Nothing you said convinced me in the slightest that it's routine.

Nothing convinces you; you're a mindless fanboy and a waste of time to talk to. I specifically said I was talking to everyone else now .. I'm more interested in their input than yours at this point. Let's see what they have to say.

Not true in the slightest. I can change my opinions if someone gives a convincing argument. You have not. And even if you were right and I was a "mindless fanboy", what would that have to do with this argument at all? Your main argument isn't criticizing of the game. It's literally just a theory in this game that encourages theorizing that I disagree with.

[BeastBox]

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

And even if you were right and I was a "mindless fanboy", what would that have to do with this argument at all?

Me understanding the game better. You seem alone in this opinion but think it's obvious and clear. I'd like to know why, but you can't explain it. If you're pulling crap out of your butt then I can safely disregard you, but I'd like a second opinion first just to be safe. If someone else can coherently explain why Rantaro was special ("there's one survivor not two" is not a reason ... now you have to explain why the number is special), then I would be interested in that. You've had your chance and failed miserably. I'm done with you. Shoo. Let others speak ... if it's so "clear".

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Originally posted by BeastBox:

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

And even if you were right and I was a "mindless fanboy", what would that have to do with this argument at all?

Me understanding the game better. You seem alone in this opinion but think it's obvious and clear. I'd like to know why, but you can't explain it. If you're pulling crap out of your butt then I can safely disregard you, but I'd like a second opinion first just to be safe. If someone else can coherently explain why Rantaro was special ("there's one survivor not two" is not a reason ... now you have to explain why the number is special), then I would be interested in that. You've had your chance and failed miserably. I'm done with you. Shoo.

You're literally denying what I say just to disagree with me at this point. First of all, get rid of that "I understand the game better than you" ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

Second of all, by "this opinion", do you mean Rantaro being special? In which case, this is ltierally the ONLY conversation I've ever seen discussing this. Even if most other people got the same thing you got, that it was just a normal process of the show, how the hell was I supposed to know that most people got a different conclusion than I did? I haven't seen anyone talk about it.

Third, and this is what's really bugging me, I HAVE been explaining it. I've given reasoning behind what I think, so don't you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ say that I haven't. Anyone with eyes could see that I have been.

Fourth, why the HELL does the number of survivors not matter?! That is the biggest evidence that you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. If you're right, and it's a normal process, then logical reasoning points to there being two survivors EVERY GAME, since the game ends at two survivors. So why the ♥♥♥♥ is there being only ONE SURVIVOR HERE and not two like your theory suggests not a reason? It's a perfectly valid reason. My god, and here I thought we could have an argument where you DIDN'T brush me off for no reason. Silly me for hoping that you could actually accept my arguments instead of just saying that I don't have any "coherent arguments". At least you actually read what I wrote this time.

[BeastBox]

You just can't shut up, it seems ...

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

You're literally denying what I say just to disagree with me at this point. First of all, get rid of that "I understand the game better than you" ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

If I honestly thought that, I wouldn't talk to you at all. I guess we finally got to that point, though, but be fair: you earned it. :)

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

Third, and this is what's really bugging me, I HAVE been explaining it. I've given reasoning behind what I think, so don't you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ say that I haven't. Anyone with eyes could see that I have been.

All your explanations are circular, or assumptions, or things you can't demonstrate in game. Your explanation for Rantaro being special basically boils down to "he just is", when every relevant point of dialogue treats it like the most normal thing in the world. Saying "you wanted this ..." they ALL wanted this; he just gets to know it. Pointed question: does ANYTHING in the game give ANY reason for Rantaro getting the perks other than "he survived"? Including Rantaro and Tsumugi's own words. Because that alone throws your entire "it's because he's special" argument under a bus. Show me any line of dialogue with "He's special because ...". This game has some of the most drawn out, overbearing hand-holding dialogue ever; it must be somewhere right?

I think "it's because he survived" means "it's because he survived". So ... survivors get a perk next round. Seems to track. Again, anyone else in the forum not named Battler, you're free to weigh in.

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

Fourth, why the HELL does the number of survivors not matter?! That is the biggest evidence that you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. If you're right, and it's a normal process, then logical reasoning points to there being two survivors EVERY GAME, since the game ends at two survivors. So why the ♥♥♥♥ is there being only ONE SURVIVOR HERE and not two like your theory suggests not a reason?

Because you've drawn no correlation betweek "perk" and "number of survivors". You might as well say he got the perk because he's blonde, or knows the most WWII history trivia, or was really good to Tsumugi in the hotel love room in season 52. The only argument you've even offered is it would be too much of an edge, and I've already shown that there's insufficient evidence for that conclusion (hell, even Rantaro didn't trust his own perk ... never mind he DIED FIRST. Some edge. XD ). The simplest, most consistent explanation for the survivor's perk is ... it's a perk survivors get. Implicit in that is "they come back next season". No other elaboration is offered, certainly nothing to do with "number of students". So no, it doesn't matter. Or at least, there's no evidence on offer that it matters.

This is why I want a second opinion; you seem to be genuinely hallucinating things and I want to know if there's someone else -- ANYONE else -- in this forum who has reached the same conclusions from the game, or if you're just insane. I asked you to be quiet ... part of that was so you could stop digging your own hole. Any time now ...

[BeastBox]

Seriously, could anyone NOT named Battler chime in on this? I want to know what people's impression of "what happens to the survivor" was, and why, if at all, they thought Rantaro was some special exception to the normal rules. Genuinely curious.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

I've gone over this ♥♥♥♥. Tsumugi's calling it a punishment and the fact that he's the ONLY survivor is evidence. Your argument for the perk is a good one, I will admit. But you have not given a good argument for either of these. You're literally just BRUSHING OFF the latter argument for no ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ reason, and ignoring the reasoning I gave for the former as "plot inconsistency", with literally NOTHING ELSE, which says to me that anything that doesn't fit woith YOUR conclusion is either delusions in my head or writing problems, which is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. I'm not talking about the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ perk, I'm talking about YOUR OWN ARGUMENT! There are two survivors every game, and they always appear in the next game. Fine, then where the ♥♥♥♥ is the second survivor then? The game ends with two survivors, and the survivors always carry over into the next season, right? Then where, oh where, is the second survivor? I'm not going to keep quiet because you're literally just brushing off my arguments and calling me delusional. Hell, why don't YOU cite text from the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ game? You give me ♥♥♥♥ for not doing it (Even though I had, since I used Rantaro and Tsumugi's words), but you haven't specified a damn thing. You say the dialogue doesn't support my argument, but you don't cite anything that backs your ♥♥♥♥ up. I've at least SAID what characters say and why I think that it supports my theory, even if they are just small snippits. But it's a FACT that Tsumugi called replaying the game a punishment. It's a FACT that Rantaro said that he "wanted this game". But what the ♥♥♥♥ do you have, eh? ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

[BeastBox]

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

Tsumugi's calling it a punishment and the fact that he's the ONLY survivor is evidence.

You need to explain WHY it's a punishment when they all want to be there anyway, including Rantaro, and apparently 53 seasons worth of the population, because otherwise it just comes across as more provocation and lies, which is pretty consistent with the rest of Tsumugi's dialogue (ie: assuming it's NOT lies introduces further inconsistencies that require explanation). And, as stated, Rantaro being the only survivor is literally meaningless because you can't draw a correlation between that and the perk. Okay, he's the only survivor .... and? So?

I'm brushing them off because they're unsubstantiated and stupid and I'm sick of repeating myself. Anyone NOT named Battler, can you provide a COHERENT explanation?

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

There are two survivors every game

... wait; what. How is this a given? There's only one survivor this round, implying there's ... only one survivor, right? Not two?

How about answering your own question there: where is the second survivor then, if two are assumed? Tsumugi says there's no going back to the real world, there's only one survivor here ... I'm sure over 53 seasons there's a been a few times only one person made it. Maybe the last three people just went berserk and two of them killed each other (one kills another, then succumbs to wounds inflicted in the struggle, for example). So Rantaro was the only survivor. It's a killing game, after all. Crazy stuff happens. I mean, three people made it this time. So what? This is especially funny in light of your previous argument that the same thing happening over and over would get boring. Maybe it, you know ... doesn't, then?

(I hope you don't want to play the "it's the rules so there!" card because even Rantaro's murder was, in and of itself, a violation of the rules. There's clearly exceptions when it's convenient for the show. Do you like how I borrowed Junko's "... so?" earlier in the post? :) )

Again, the purpose of the survivor perk seems self-explanitory (it's a perk for survivors) and Tsumugi certainly seems to take it as a given that whoever lives goes on to the next round. Nothing about this is treated as special in the slightest. It's just what happens. Nothing worth reading into here about Rantaro being "special". He's just last season's winner ... nothing more.

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

It's a FACT that Rantaro said that he "wanted this game".

Addressed this three times now; not sure repeating myself will help. Tell you what; you think this is special, how about you tell us all WHY it's special. What was the reason Rantaro "wanted this game" besides the reason already given multiple times ... they ALL wanted it? He just gets to know that, as part of his perk. You've given no reason or cause why this should be read into any more than that.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Why would Shirogane lie about that, though? Why specifically say it's a punishment, especially since that was long AFTER she showed them the interview videos. They already knew that they signed up for it, so why would she call it a punishment at that point if that wasn't exactly what it was?

And that's why there only being one survivor is an issue! There was a rule that stated "the game ends when there are two survivors". Thus, it stands to reason that if it's a normal circumstance, then there would be another survivor. But there isn't. How about that there was a similar situation in the last season to what we have now, and there were three people that made it to the end, not counting the mastermind, and they had to choose one person to participate in the next killing game, and Rantaro volunteered. If you're saying that Tsumugi treats it like a given that survivors participate in the next game, then give me evidence, because I don't remember anything she said implied that it was a given.

Yes, and that argument certainly works. But at the same time, who's to say he knew about the reality show? Who's to say he was TALKING about signing up for the reality show? You ♥♥♥♥♥ at me for making assumptions, then you go right around and make assumptions yourself. As for the reason he "wanted the game", see the last paragraph. Also, I seem to recall Shuichi suggesting that Rantaro was presented with the same choice they were. I'll have to go back and look over the case to be sure, though.

[BeastBox]

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

Why would Shirogane lie about that, though? Why specifically say it's a punishment, especially since that was long AFTER she showed them the interview videos. They already knew that they signed up for it, so why would she call it a punishment at that point if that wasn't exactly what it was?

For exactly the reason I said: provocation. In fact, we KNOW that in particular is a lie, because the videos we've seen of Rantaro and the rest of the cast back when they knew what they're getting into shows them pumped as hell for it (Rantaro specifically says he wanted it, everyone else celebrates when chosen, etc). Tsumugi's just trying to have a big finale so she's ****-talking. Basically doing a promo. She wants them to THINK it's a punishment so there's some kind of stakes. I mean ... if they all just want to do it again, that's not much of an ending. :) So let's call it "punishment". That's a nice trigger-word in the Danganronpa universe, right? I mean, it's not like they're not just going to get their memories wiped again like Rantaro, right? That'd be a pretty nonexistant punishment.

(I'm also just taking your word that she even calls it that at this point. If some other poster chimes in with screenshots of Tsumugi only referring to punishment as "execution", which is all punishment has ever meant in this game, then this is even stupider, which I didn't think possible.)

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

And that's why there only being one survivor is an issue! There was a rule that stated "the game ends when there are two survivors".

It probably did, in the example scenario I gave. The last to die doesn't miraculously ressurect so there can be two people. The rule isn't broken, and, like I said, even if it was, so what. They break the rules all the time when it's convenient. At the end of the day, you can't accuse me of not being able to explain away a second survivor when you can't either. The simplest explanation, especially when we've been told explicitly that there's no going back, is "there isn't one". The survivor was Rantaro. No other is ever mentioned, their absence unexplained. I don't recall Monokuma or anyone else saying he was one of the survivors. He was "the survivor". Screenshots if that's false and he ever used the plural in reference to Rantaro or the previous season, please. Fairly certain he didn't. Ever.

(Maybe the second survivor was Kaede's twin sister! DUN DUN DUUUUUUUN!) XD

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

How about that there was a similar situation in the last season to what we have now, and there were three people that made it to the end, not counting the mastermind, and they had to choose one person to participate in the next killing game, and Rantaro volunteered. If you're saying that Tsumugi treats it like a given that survivors participate in the next game, then give me evidence, because I don't remember anything she said implied that it was a given.

I like how you say that last line IMMEDIATELY after an imagined scenario for which there is no evidence, and which ALSO violates the rules. :) Clearly you just want to believe what you want ... but, as stated again and again, the game treats the survivor perk as exactly that, without qualification. The fact Tsumugi DOESN'T say anything else is the best proof, because it's just being treated like part of the show. It's just something the survivor gets. Nothing about it is even special to Rontaro; it's just a video from your past self, a map, and a note. Seems like a regular thing to me, and if it's special in some way the game gives no recognition of that, nor why Rantaro was special for getting it. You can make up scenarios if you want, but in your initial post you said it was clear, so ... still awaiting how it's "clear".

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

Yes, and that argument certainly works. But at the same time, who's to say he knew about the reality show? Who's to say he was TALKING about signing up for the reality show?

Well, that seems like the natural conclusion to reach from the context of the video and the monopad. I think they speak for themselves. And that's why I keep asking for someone other than you to post, because I think this information reads pretty clearly, but you keep saying "Well, what if it's something ELSE?" without elaborating on a) what this something else is, or b) why it's more likely. You think his video and note might have been about something else? Okay, cool ... what, and why, exactly? Besides "what I say it is" and "because it makes me right", of course.

Honestly, this sounds like a deperate attempt to make up more nonsense to prop up your own assumptions, but hey, if you have a new interpretation to offer, or took the scenes differently, then feel free to elaborate. I keep asking you for something of substance and you keep disappointing me. My answer will remain the same: I took the scenes as they were written, and read nothing more into them that that. The Survivor Perk is a perk survivors get, and coming back next season is implicit to the perk because it's not like they can return to their old lives anyway. Simple. Not even sure why it's worth arguing about, frankly (it's not like the plot hinges on this one point). If you have a better explanation, from within the game and not your imagination ... well, I almost said "let's hear it" but if we were going to hear it, we would have by now.

Anyone else? Anyone? I want to know if anyone not named Battler finished the game thinking that Rantaro coming back with a perk was some special occasion for some reason not mentioned and not a regular recurring function of the show, and why they got that impression. Or if it just seemed like "hey, survivors come back as returning champs with a bonus". What was everyone else's impressions?

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Eh, whatever. I don't agree with you. I say Rantaro is a special case. You say he doesn't. That's all there is to it at this point. These back and forths get tiring. I don't see how you came to that conclusion immediately. I've given my reasoning, from ♥♥♥♥ in the game, and I'm tired of your ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.