The real problem I see with DR V3's ending

[neildittmar]

Finished the game last night... can't say I'm pleased with how it all turned out.

I see that there are quite a few interpretations of the ending here. Regardless of what Spike Chunsoft was actually going for, what really sours things is not the fourth wall breaking... it's the literal destruction of the fourth wall in the most damaging way possible for a fictional narrative series.

Anybody watch WWE programming? I do and despite the participants themselves being real people, I know that the *characters* I see are not. Their respective friendships and feuds with one another are fiction. The storylines that play out are concocted by writers and the outcomes are pre-determined. I fully understand that all involved are telling a story that can (read: is supposed to) make the audience feel a certain way, perhaps even alter their opinion or perspective on something. To that end, WWE is no different than any other fictional narrative whether it be in television, movies, written works, video games, or otherwise.

So goes Danganronpa as well.

While fourth wall breaking isn't groundbreaking, particularly for a well established franchise, what Spike Chunsoft has accomplished here equates to a level of player alienation I don't ever recall witnessing before. It's tantamount to WWE building a years worth of storylines heading into Wrestlemania, only to have the wrestlers come out at the show, introduce themselves by their real names, and explain that those stories and feuds they were all involved in were fiction. Following them, the writers reveal themselves to the audience and corroborate the wrestlers testimonies. Finally, Vince McMahon himself grabs a mic and states that *everything* (going back to the Hulk Hogan era 80's and beyond) was fiction, intimating that it's somehow a *fault* that the characters and narratives became successful.

Despite it's cartoony and over the top presentation, Danganronpa is a mature rated game series with subject matter intended for adults. Barring what I believe is a very, very small segment of that audience, I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of us *know* that this collection of characters, locations, and storylines isn't real. To take approximately 3 hours of a nearly 50 hour experience, right at the very end no less, to continually drive that point home is incredibly superfluous. It's not clever or topical or "meta" or inspired. Most importantly, it's not a story arc despite how much the creators may desire it to be. It's merely telling the audience what they already know... over and over again and even revisiting past entries to drive the point home. It's a damaging blow to the franchise, critically perhaps, not because of the allusion that V3 may be the last game, but because it breaks the one rule that all competent narratives must follow:

Suspension of disbelief. Regardless if everyone knows it already, the millisecond you formally come out in narrative and tell the audience that it's fiction, it's over.

[Cerebral Daemon]

It's funny how the exact same ending can lead to two completely opposite opinions.

I'll be perfectly honest, when I saw the ending the first time, I started laughing hysterically. It wasn't a laugh about this being funny, it was a laugh of denial. I, legit, broke inside when I saw that ending; but that's exactly what made it brilliant, in my opinion...

Danganronpa is focused so much on the concepts of hope and despair, it's genius for them to push despair on the very player himself, rather than simply the character like usual. I felt sad with these games plenty of times before, but never have I felt at such a deep loss until now. I seriously couldn't stop smiling through the whole sixth trial, precisely because I felt destroyed yet also realized the emotion they were going for, and I never thought I'd actually understand how Junko felt at the very end but I actually feel like I'll never get closer than what I've felt with this game. That, in itself, is what makes me love this ending.

Everyone has their own opinion on the matter, though, and I can perfectly understand why many wouldn't like it. This ending falls in a weird niche, after all.

It will definitely have financial implications on Danganronpa but still, as an ending, this works well with the game. I'm glad they could bring themselves to make an artistic choice like that one, despite the likely opposition which would surround it.

[Inkie]

Even for all the fiction/real talk what was in ch6, DRV3 actually never actualy went for our own (video game) 4th wall though. In that, it's not even close to WWE levels of 4th wall breaking, since they do acknowledge the existence of their real life audience all the time. Hell, for that, WWE is the best example of 4th wall breaking not affecting suspension of disbelief itself, at least not enough to stop enjoying it.
Meanwhile, what we have here is pretty much Danganronpa: The Truman Show.

[neildittmar]

Originally posted by Inkie:

Even for all the fiction/real talk what was in ch6, DRV3 actually never actualy went for our own (video game) 4th wall though.

It's tough to argue against the parallelism between how the "fans" of the killing game were portrayed in V3 and those who buy / play / enjoy the Danganronpa series of games. If we're getting into the concept of the ending being a brave "artistic choice" as I've read it here and elsewhere, shouldn't that art represent something? If it does, then what, or more accurately who, else could the fans of the killing game in DR V3 represent?

In that, it's not even close to WWE levels of 4th wall breaking, since they do acknowledge the existence of their real life audience all the time. Hell, for that, WWE is the best example of 4th wall breaking not affecting suspension of disbelief itself, at least not enough to stop enjoying it. Meanwhile, what we have here is pretty much Danganronpa: The Truman Show.

As I said in my OP, 4th wall breaking is not groundbreaking and is not the problem in and of itself. Well established series do it, sometimes frequently. This isn't really the first time Danganronpa has done it either.

It's the level of wall breaking, as illustrated in my example, that puts the matter into no mans land. My WWE / Wrestlemania reference was the closest thing I could think of in paralleling the 3 hour long "it's fake" diatribe that occurs during V3's ending. If you don't like that example, then how about The Walking Dead? What if Rick Grimes came out during the season 7 finale, introduced himself as "actor Andrew Lincoln" and proceeded to tell the audience that everything they've witnessed, including all characters and events in past seasons, was fiction? He then takes the rest of the show, bar a few moments at the end, to illustrate in great detail how fake the show is. No worries though, since viewers see that he and the other survivors still escape from Negan at the conclusion.

Again, the argument isn't that the audience has to truly believe in order to gain value from the story... whether that means being entertained, being moved, or what have you. Suspension of disbelief is a necessary quality of fictional narrative. If you don't have that, or in V3's case it's given away, you're effectively done.

[Sepiablitz]

Originally posted by neildittmar:

What if Rick Grimes came out during the season 7 finale, introduced himself as "actor Andrew Lincoln" and proceeded to tell the audience that everything they've witnessed, including all characters and events in past seasons, was fiction? He then takes the rest of the show, bar a few moments at the end, to illustrate in great detail how fake the show is. No worries though, since viewers see that he and the other survivors still escape from Negan at the conclusion.

If you want to make that analogy work, you are missing 1 meta-layer. The walking dead is a tv show in our world. DRV3 is a game in our world. Withing DRV3 it is revealed that it is a tv show within another world. So for your analogy to work, TWD would need to be revealed as a game, where some people playing the game controll the zombies for example.

If what the mastermind said at the end is to beliefed (which I highly doubt because there were lies all over the place), that means there are basically 3 layers: Our world, the outside world of danganronpa v3 and the danganronpa universe. Within the ouside world of danganronpa v3 the tv show danganronpa is breaking the forth wall by saying it is a tv show made by Team Danganronpa. However, in our world Danganronpa V3 is a video game made by Spike Chunsoft. Team Danganronpa is made up and does not exist in our world.
The outside world of Danganronpa v3 also does not refer to our world. It is described as a peaceful paradise, and last time I checked the news, that was not an accurate description of our world in any way.

At no point was it ever said: "Buy danganronpa v3: killing harmony now on steam, and don't forget to leave a good review!". It only *appears* to break the 4th wall, but it does not. Imagine 2 boxes stacked inside each other. The inner box is the one that's broken, the outer one is still intact and seperates us from what is inside.

Originally posted by Cerebral Daemon:

I'll be perfectly honest, when I saw the ending the first time, I started laughing hysterically. It wasn't a laugh about this being funny, it was a laugh of denial. I, legit, broke inside when I saw that ending; but that's exactly what made it brilliant, in my opinion...

My thoughts during Trial 6 exactly.

[oursjulien]

Originally posted by Sepiablitz:

If what the mastermind said at the end is to beliefed (which I highly doubt because there were lies all over the place), that means there are basically 3 layers: Our world, the outside world of danganronpa v3 and the danganronpa universe. Within the ouside world of danganronpa v3 the tv show danganronpa is breaking the forth wall by saying it is a tv show made by Team Danganronpa. However, in our world Danganronpa V3 is a video game made by Spike Chunsoft. Team Danganronpa is made up and does not exist in our world.
The outside world of Danganronpa v3 also does not refer to our world. It is described as a peaceful paradise, and last time I checked the news, that was not an accurate description of our world in any way.

At no point was it ever said: "Buy danganronpa v3: killing harmony now on steam, and don't forget to leave a good review!". It only *appears* to break the 4th wall, but it does not. Imagine 2 boxes stacked inside each other. The inner box is the one that's broken, the outer one is still intact and seperates us from what is inside.

Well said. But I'll add that I like to think that DRv3 and the previous Danganronpa games are set up in different worlds and that in their alternate universe, the events of DR1, SDR2, DR:A and the anime really happened .

[neildittmar]

Originally posted by Sepiablitz:

If you want to make that analogy work, you are missing 1 meta-layer. The walking dead is a tv show in our world. DRV3 is a game in our world. Withing DRV3 it is revealed that it is a tv show within another world. So for your analogy to work, TWD would need to be revealed as a game, where some people playing the game controll the zombies for example.

You are arguing from a meta-level "making it work (or not work) within the Danganronpa universe" standpoint. I'm arguing from the standpoint of an individual consuming entertainment-based media :-)

Regardless of how many layers are applied, the ending of DR V3 revealed to players (us, to clarify) that essentially every element of the preceding parts of the franchise was fiction. The characters in 1 and 2 were fictional, which means the games as they were presented to players were fictional. Everything that players knew about the Danganronpa universe that preceded V3 doesn't really exist... other than the "feels" of course :-/

Are you suggesting that there is a "game world" where the events of DR1 and 2 don't exist, but a "real world" where they do? That scenario would be even more unsettling to me than the one we currently have. Breaking suspension of disbelief and trashing your narrative is one thing... playing a game (pun intended) where the cannon vastly differs between the characters/events in the games and real-life individuals playing those games is too much to handle, let alone keep track of.

[Sepiablitz]

Originally posted by neildittmar:

Are you suggesting that there is a "game world" where the events of DR1 and 2 don't exist, but a "real world" where they do?

I am not suggisting anything. I simply laid out the conclusion of what you get when you take everything the mastermind said at face value. However, lies are sprinkled everywhere, so right now there is no definitive answer to the end.
What I wanted to say though is, that there is nothing that support the interpretation of the game breaking the 4th wall as in speaking to the player directly or laying out the mechanics of the game.

The previous games have been declared fictional, however with so many lies in the entire game, that one might be one too.I recommend watching the epiloge if you have accidentally missed it

[BeastBox]

Originally posted by Sepiablitz:

At no point was it ever said: "Buy danganronpa v3: killing harmony now on steam, and don't forget to leave a good review!".

Pretty sure one of the Monokuma theatres tells you to play more Spike Chunsoft games because they help you focus.

(never thought I'd ever see anyone claim Danganronpa doesn't break the fourth wall ...)

[Inkie]

Originally posted by neildittmar:

It's tough to argue against the parallelism between how the "fans" of the killing game were portrayed in V3 and those who buy / play / enjoy the Danganronpa series of games.

So what if they represent us? That's ain't 4th wall breaking in itself. Again, that pretty much exactly like things were in The Trumans Show and parallel with audience was even bigger, without all that sorta utopian future stuff DRV3 were going for.

And what's up with your examples? Cuz DRV3 ending says what it was completely and undoubtedly real bloody deaths. I totaly would've watch that "The Walking Dead was just a show but threat of zombies are still real".

Originally posted by neildittmar:

Everything that players knew about the Danganronpa universe that preceded V3 doesn't really exist...

That's exactly what steam store page says: "A New Danganronpa Begins: Forget what you thought you knew about Danganronpa and join a completely new cast of Ultimates for a brand-new beginning."
And it's not even complete reboot as it turns out and memories had to be kept.

[neildittmar]

Originally posted by Sepiablitz:

Originally posted by neildittmar:

Are you suggesting that there is a "game world" where the events of DR1 and 2 don't exist, but a "real world" where they do?

I am not suggisting anything. I simply laid out the conclusion of what you get when you take everything the mastermind said at face value.

Again, you're speculating from the standpoint of how this all fits in to the Danganronpa universe. My arguments are from the standpoint of the real-life player (me, you, anyone else) who finished V3 with the so-called "good" ending.

If there is no difference between the "game world" and the "real world" as far as DR 1, 2, UDG, et. al. go, then V3's ending revealed, in narrative, that all of the characters, events, settings, etc. preceding V3 in the Danganronpa Universe were fiction. In other words, again in narrative, we were essentially told that "it's fake."

As I said in my OP, this is very damaging for the series, possibly critically, even if another Danganronpa game never materializes... because this effectively trashes the entire narrative leading up to V3.

Originally posted by Inkie:

Originally posted by neildittmar:

It's tough to argue against the parallelism between how the "fans" of the killing game were portrayed in V3 and those who buy / play / enjoy the Danganronpa series of games.

So what if they represent us?.

If we can agree that the "fans" of the killing game represent us, that actually compounds the issue I raise. Not only have Spike Chunsoft effectively taken away from us, in narrative, all of the characters, events, settings, etc. of the Danganronpa universe preceding V3, they've done so in quite a condescending and dismissive way.

Remember how those "fans" were portrayed... as bloodthirsty and tunnel-visioned, with no care or regard for those involved in creating the killing games that they loved so much. Furthermore, when those "fans" seemingly didn't get their way, they were portrayed as stereotypical whiners and criers.

So if the "fans" of the killing game represent us, who would be the creators of the killing game in that analogy?

And what's up with your examples? Cuz DRV3 ending says what it was completely and undoubtedly real bloody deaths.

I agree that V3's were, though the characters as portrayed were not real. However, we were told in very certain terms that anything that happened in the media (games, anime, et. al.) preceding V3 was fiction. If the characters didn't exist, then it stands to reason that the events they purportedly took part in didn't exist either. If the events didn't exist, then the deaths (or anything else related to those games, anime, etc.) never happened. That's what fiction is.

Originally posted by neildittmar:

Everything that players knew about the Danganronpa universe that preceded V3 doesn't really exist...

That's exactly what steam store page says: "A New Danganronpa Begins: Forget what you thought you knew about Danganronpa and join a completely new cast of Ultimates for a brand-new beginning."
And it's not even complete reboot as it turns out and memories had to be kept.

Rebooting a series is fine... developers do it all the time. What they don't do is spend a significant (inordinate?) amount of in-game time proclaiming how essentially everything regarding the series prior to the latest installment was fiction. That's the difference here, and a key one at that.

So the question remains, why do you think that is? Honestly, I think
Cerebral Daemon's post in this thread gets us close to the answer:

Originally posted by Cerebral Daemon:

I'll be perfectly honest, when I saw the ending the first time, I started laughing hysterically. It wasn't a laugh about this being funny, it was a laugh of denial. I, legit, broke inside when I saw that ending; but that's exactly what made it brilliant, in my opinion...

So if the goal was to put the real-life players in "despair" so to speak, and there is a correlation between the "fans" of the killing game and us, again I ask... who does the "creator" of the killing games correlate to? What was their motive in doing what they did?

[Battler Ushiromiya]

I find that your entire problem with the ending ignores something important: One of the games themes, that fiction can change reality/people. The entire point was that it was saying that it doesn't matter that they're "fiction", because regardless of that, it can affect people.

[neildittmar]

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

I find that your entire problem with the ending ignores something important: One of the games themes, that fiction can change reality/people. The entire point was that it was saying that it doesn't matter that they're "fiction", because regardless of that, it can affect people.

I actually do take this into consideration, albeit somewhat indirectly in subsequent posts:

Originally posted by neildittmar:

Again, the argument isn't that the audience has to truly believe in order to gain value from the story... whether that means being entertained, being moved, or what have you. Suspension of disbelief is a necessary quality of fictional narrative. If you don't have that, or in V3's case it's given away, you're effectively done.

and

Originally posted by neildittmar:

Regardless of how many layers are applied, the ending of DR V3 revealed to players (us, to clarify) that essentially every element of the preceding parts of the franchise was fiction. The characters in 1 and 2 were fictional, which means the games as they were presented to players were fictional. Everything that players knew about the Danganronpa universe that preceded V3 doesn't really exist... other than the "feels" of course :-/

I'll add that there is a critical difference between the player knowing that the characters, events, etc. contained within a universe are fictional and when characters within that universe reveal through narrative that these elements are fictional. The former is a normal rationalization by the player that what he/she is seeing on-screen isn't real. The latter delegitimizes and eliminates characters, settings, and storylines that were previously established, destroying cannon in the process.

The notion that the "feels", as I inelegantly put it, still remain is fine. Suspension of disbelief being sacrificed in an effort to be clever, topical, "meta", inspired, or otherwise is not.

[Inkie]

Originally posted by neildittmar:

The latter delegitimizes and eliminates characters, settings, and storylines that were previously established, destroying cannon in the process.

How is this bad? I mean I more wtf'd when they brought back Junko and dr1 again instead of fully disregarding previous installments, now this is some false advertising on their part. But it is still better than picking up from DR3.

[neildittmar]

Originally posted by Inkie:

Originally posted by neildittmar:

The latter delegitimizes and eliminates characters, settings, and storylines that were previously established, destroying cannon in the process.

How is this bad?

I guess that's the real question surrounding the ending to V3, isn't it? For those who are ok with how things went down, I'll make no effort to convince them otherwise.

To be clear, the point here wasn't to call out V3's ending as "bad"... that's a matter of perspective as I'm sure Spike Chunsoft had intended. The point was to illustrate what I believe is a critical flaw in the story-telling during that ending. Something bigger than mere plot holes and much larger than the developers retconning portions of the prior story that didn't fit or they didn't want or like.

What was done in V3's ending equates to the absolute destruction of the suspension of disbelief. It's the one rule that fictional narrative shouldn't break. It was not only broken for V3, but for the entire series dating back to and including DR 1.

In my opinion, retention of "feels" or some meta-ideology that fiction can change reality are not good enough reasons to eliminate what equates to hundreds of hours worth of canon from the narrative. If others disagree and view V3's conclusion as a fitting end to the series or a great start to a brand new story arc, then so be it.

As for me, I'm not ok with this nor can I rationalize when this would ever be ok... for Danganronpa or any other fictional series.

[Inkie]

Well, have to say, my suspensions went through it just fine. Even after all this fiction talk my empathy for the main cast was still fine, so it can't be called "absolute" destruction simply because it did nothing for me. And it isn't just about how good am i in suspending my disbelief either, going back to WWE, i'm not good enough for it.
Also, i didn't get the impression that retention of "feels" were concerning previous games. To the contrary, V3 antagonized them a lot.