Vanguard and Rearguard Explanations please

[DamageInvite]

So beyond the obvious "Vanguard is the front row and Rearguard is the back row."

I was wondering how each affects certain things such as: physical damage dealt, likelihood of being attacked, amount of damage received when being attacked, etc etc.

If someone would shed some light on this I would be truly grateful.

[Nito]

vanguard and rearguard works more for the formations and weapon efectivness like crossbow hit ♥♥♥♥ on vanguard and swords hit ♥♥♥♥ on rearguard

some formations make magic stronger but you need 3 rearguard some give life regen by turn.....

[DamageInvite]

Originally posted by Nito:

vanguard and rearguard works more for the formations and weapon efectivness like crossbow hit ♥♥♥♥ on vanguard and swords hit ♥♥♥♥ on rearguard

some formations make magic stronger but you need 3 rearguard some give life regen by turn.....

Nito, I appreciate your response, but it's a bit vague for my liking. If you, or someone else, wouldn't mind elaborating on this that would be immensely helpful.

[Nito]

on what ?

[Kain Yusanagi]

I don't see what there is to call vague. He's saying that some weapons, as noted in their status, do terrible in the rearguard or the vanguard (a -50% damage Mismatch penalty); the specific examples given were the crossbow (bad in vanguard) and swords (bad in rearguard).

Secondly, he noted that some formations can make your magic stronger, but you need to be able to field three rearguard/three vanguard to pull off those formations; additionally, the three-rearguard formation gives a 10% heal per turn to rearguard, and the three vanguard variety adds 5% heal per turn to vanguard. To enable these formations, you need your vanguards and rearguards in specific layouts (aka formations).

[Vexov]

When you are over a weapon it shows where its best suited Vanguard, Van/Rear, Rearguard.

From what i've seen: you want 3 somewhat tanky characters in your top group. I notice some hits go from left tor right, You want groups 1-3 your tanky vanguards (just people with meat on their bones). You also wanna try to give your meaty guys charm stat which increases chance to get targeted.

I dunnno what else to say. I wish the game itself allowed you to hit "select/share/back" on the controller and go over anything on the screen giving you some detials or a help section giving you the information instead of having to go to the internet. It is what pisses me off about console games, they're still all about reducing as much information as possible so they dont confuse the poor players. The abilities with chance procs_____ dont even say 1/2 the time the % chance ffs.

[Nito]

Originally posted by Vexov:

From what i've seen: you want 3 somewhat tanky characters in your top group. I notice some hits go from left tor right, You want groups 1-3 your tanky vanguards (just people with meat on their bones). You also wanna try to give your meaty guys charm stat which increases chance to get targeted.

right and wrong attacks dont hit letft for right they hit the whole row(vanguard or rearguard) like your own magic

you will want the tanky guys without charm, charm works to avoid attention(weird right) but some enemies(rare kind) like to focus on characters with high charm

[Grakor]

Originally posted by Vexov:

When you are over a weapon it shows where its best suited Vanguard, Van/Rear, Rearguard.

From what i've seen: you want 3 somewhat tanky characters in your top group. I notice some hits go from left tor right, You want groups 1-3 your tanky vanguards (just people with meat on their bones). You also wanna try to give your meaty guys charm stat which increases chance to get targeted.

I dunnno what else to say. I wish the game itself allowed you to hit "select/share/back" on the controller and go over anything on the screen giving you some detials or a help section giving you the information instead of having to go to the internet. It is what pisses me off about console games, they're still all about reducing as much information as possible so they dont confuse the poor players. The abilities with chance procs_____ dont even say 1/2 the time the % chance ffs.

To note, charm actually lowers your chances to be targeted, so you want low charm tanks. Certain monsters break that rule, but for most you want charmless tanks.

Also, it mostly doesn't matter, but it seems it is better to put tanks on the right when possible, specifically because of the target order. The intercept ability the Fortress facet has can only intervene on so many attacks per round, and if they are on the left they might waste their interceptions on other tanks. That is how it was explained last I read, anyway.

[Unfulfilled Desires]

Originally posted by DamageInvite:

Nito, I appreciate your response, but it's a bit vague for my liking. If you, or someone else, wouldn't mind elaborating on this that would be immensely helpful.

Literally look at the formation option when you go to attack, it tells you exactly what they do

as for where they go in the pact, always put the type you want on the LEADER slot in the pact for said type of coven

[TheBlindReaper]

Uh, Vanguard and Rearguard have another use other than for Formations, some enemy skills hit by Group, meaning either your entire Rearguard or Vanguard. For example, the most used AoE for Trolls in the 3rd dungeon only hit Rearguard, having all Rear for the increased Escape Chance can actually screw you over if you can't tank early.

In regards to High Charm enemy focus, that's what Theatrical's are for, they can actually act as High Charm Tanks due to how most Charm Pacts work (Convert % Charm > ATK,HIT,AVD,DEF my Theatrical actually has way more DEF and AVD than everyone else.... given I didn't Synth anyone's Armor yet just cause 50% of 2k+ Charm > DEF, AVD,ATK,HIT from Charmer Pact) and have Sustain Donums.

Also I don't think there is a limit to how many times Guardian Soul can Intercept. It's Chance based, I've had my Main Tank Block almost everyone during a Brig AoE, she missed once ard the last 3 and continued to block (I have 12 people in the Brigade)

[Kain Yusanagi]

Originally posted by Grakor:

To note, charm actually lowers your chances to be targeted, so you want low charm tanks. Certain monsters break that rule, but for most you want charmless tanks.

Also, it mostly doesn't matter, but it seems it is better to put tanks on the right when possible, specifically because of the target order. The intercept ability the Fortress facet has can only intervene on so many attacks per round, and if they are on the left they might waste their interceptions on other tanks. That is how it was explained last I read, anyway.

It is completely false that low charm makes you targetted less. The game repeats that lie a few times, but simple empirical testing will show that throwing charm onto your tanks will make them the solo target of damn near everything. Some enemies do ignore charm and attack whatever, but that's it. Pretty sure the NISA translators ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up that part.

Secondly, it is also completely false that there is a limited number of interceptions that any Peer Fortress can make. It's a flat 10% plus either 15% or 5% per Katar equipped (it says that it's 10% that goes to 15% for each katar equipped, but that phrasing doesn't make any sense); having your Peer Fortresses Fortify vastly increases the chance of intercepting attacks, as well. I've had a single Peer Fortress intercept every tick from an All targeting enemy Donum. It's possible that +Guard Rate functions also increase Intercept chances, as well.

[Grakor]

So, for the record, the thread that talks about this: https://steamcommunity.com/app/566540/discussions/0/1733213724900952709/

It's possible that the Japanese wiki is wrong about the limited interceptions. I've personally noticed that I never get more than three interceptions, but that's not empirical testing. If there really has been any testing on charm and interceptions, I'd like to see it. It's possible I'm wrong, but nothing I've seen in my gameplay has shown me anything other than what I've said above.

[TheBlindReaper]

yeah, could be wrong info on JP, cause even though currently I have 2 Peer's (One is gonna be a subtank DPS as Gothic, made her a Peer to take the Regen and Guard Chances since I've a 50% Guard Shield). The most I should be blocking then is 6/12 characters, but I've seen my one Main Tank with dual Katar's blocking almost everyone during a Boss/Hard Purple Brig AoE.... even the 2nd Peer who's rolling a Hammer + Shield. They're even on Coven 2 because I run Advance so they can't take last slot for my EVA DPS. It's even killed her before during a YOLO low lv Furfur attempt when she taunted the Fire Breath heh.

I can't say much abt Charm but at lower lvs when I stuck to the Defense Pact and the Troll Helm that had -380 Charm, my MT would be targeted pretty consistently even without Incite. Currently the only 2 ppl that get hit are my Theatrical with her ridiculously high Charm and MT/Coven (Though they run Defender Pact now which has +Enmity). Which does show that the enemies do have some sort of Charm based targetting. Just to also add, only 1 person had Stealth for the entirety before I ran Defender/Phalanx since no Transfer Soul then.