weapons.....

[jeager]

Something got really messed up in the name of balance....

Nice to see plasma/bolter tech lurking but they are woefully over-available and underpowered. Same for lascannons.

from TT at the time of necromundas first release.

Stubguns if I recall were strength 2..., pathetic but so widely available it didn't matter if you lost or broke one... there was probably another within easy reach.
Lasgun/autogun strength 3, no save modifier. Pretty common in the underhive (in lore will take a fist sized chunk out of an unarmoured human target)
Heavy Stubber strength 4, -1 save modifier. Pretty common.
Bolter/bolt pistol strength 4, -1 save modifier. Incredibly rare (makes a bloody mess of the same target)
Heavy bolter str 5, -2 save mod, up to 4 wounds inflicted. Also rare (even well armoured humans should be terrified)
Plasma pistol str 6, -1 save mod. almost unheard of in the hive (starting to trouble light tanks now)
Plasma gun str 7, -2 save mod. almost unheard of in the hive
Plasma cannon str 7, -2 save mod, up to 4 wounds. Again, outside of van saar... unheard of (on low power)
Autocannon str 8, -3 save mod, up to 6 wounds, Very very rare (all purpose battlefield tank/infantry killer....)
Lascannon str 9, -6 save mod, up to 12 wounds. Maybe 1 or 2 in the entire underhive. (this is the kind of weapon that killed the heaviest tanks and monsters, human targets... vaporised)
Plasma cannon str 10, -6 save mod, up to 10 wounds. (High powered shot, took a turn to recharge)

Ammo rules made for anything other than a stubgun/lasgun being almost guarenteed to be briefly gloriously OP.. but out of ammo in a few turns.


Come to this game and plasma might as well tickle compared to autoguns, same for lascannon and plasma cannon vs autocannon.....

[Bababooey]

They botched it. IDK if they are familiar with source material.

[AnimeCatGirl]

I agree it's not the table top. Did you not level up your guys? With the right modifiers you routinely wipe whole squads in a single round.... & with the right modifiers you're near unkillable, following the buffs and debuffs in game is a little difficult but generally when I see 'oddly low' or 'surprisingly high' numbers I take a few and hit SHIFT.

[Zebedee]

Escrito originalmente por Bababooey:

They botched it. IDK if they are familiar with source material.

They've just tried to balance more along RPG style lines rather than how TT (and in universe logic) works which is more balanced by rarity of item and ammunition/ability to maintain. So you end up with those who don't realise the difference going 'hur dur but if you have a plasma gun +5 with maxed out skills and abilities then you *do* have a fair chance of killing someone with a single shot once in a while'.

Can see why they've balanced it as they have - rarity isn't really going to be a long term barrier grinding against the AI - but do agree it can be a bit jarring. Especially at early levels when everything is much of a muchness and can turn into a wet noodle contest from range.

[StimJunky]

I think it was more so a matter of a rushed development. They had to reboot development back in 2019. Taken from the Rogue Factor community forums;

"In February 2019, we organised a round of Closed Playtests, aimed at receiving an honest and fresh assessment from some of our most senior and dedicated community members (to whom we would once again like to say a huge thank you!).

While these sessions confirmed that the game was indeed heading in the right direction, they also made clear to us that we had to make some important changes, in order to realize the project’s full potential, and carry it to the height of its intended creative vision."

The release was pushed by a year to address the "important changes" and while I don't know what they were specifically it's clear from the homogeneity of the gangs, the weapons, the boring skills that when upgraded just reduce AP cost, and everyone having static health pools that they didn't have enough time to flesh out large parts of the game.

I've heard it said that they were working on a version where players would take their turns simultaneously but I don't know if that's just a rumor or it was in fact planned but they couldn't get it to work properly. This could explain the somewhat baffling decision to force the player to have to sit there and watch every AI round in the release version.

[Fendelphi]

A thing to consider.
In tabletop, a "campaign" can be anything from a couple of hours(a night with some friends) to decently long tour-de-Necromunda(10+). Anyway, losing gangers is not uncommon, nor does it feel that penalizing, because you can quickly start up a new Gang if needed or just make some house rules to keep it fun.

Here, if weapons are too potent, you risk getting your entire gang wiped after having spent 20+ hours on it(if you even get that far). The time invested is the difference, and few people would take that kind of setback with a smile.
Gatling Frenzy is an awesome skill, but if Las/Plasma Cannons were to be "true to table top", that would be 3 dead gangers.

A potential "fix" would be to vastly increase the rarity of such weapons(and increase their power), but that just means that it can still happen and that you will not see much variety of weapons for the majority of the game.
And when you get such weaponry yourself, the game becomes boring, because everything evaporates.

[jeager]

Honestly better to up the power of weapons and drop the availability, seeing a lascannon in the opposing force (or even a chain-sword) should be an 'oh ♥♥♥♥' moment that leaves the entire gang dashing behind cover and working out how to get to them without being killed. Having a heavy with an autogun rather than a heavy anything was pretty common.

Running on scavenged stub weapons and standard swords/clubs etc makes the tactical side of the game no less, or more, interesting than it is now. But having that ultra-rare weapon turn up paints a huge target on who-ever carries it and at the same time gives them a fighting chance of surviving whatever gets sent after them.

[brynjar]

Weapon rares should def be a thing. Im afraid the feel of variety migth take too big a hit if the shinies became relics. If this game has to make it, then it needs more replayabilety value than tabletop simply because this is computer, and some things cant be transferred from tabletop.
Here you dont have the very team you painted with your own sweat, blood and tears, when battleing against your trusted crew of few in the weekends, while you slam beers and listen to Amon Amarth.

Dont misunderstand me, i do not want diablo or something, but maby rarer versions of the bigguns? Like with added perks? Am i dreaming here loremasters

This game is grind however, i predickt were all gonna have 3*5 squads, each designed for a special kind of mission, something like, melee, pick-ups or tech. And if theres too far between the punchers, the pace could get to slow

[Pretty Swag for a Steemtag]

They did error on the side of balance because of they made the heavy guns, plasma, and bolt weapons true to source material then every combat would be high powered rocket tag where every activation would result in a death as soon as the first shot landed. After all plasma cannons lore wise should paste whoever it hit and everyone around them. Even regular plasma weapons would instagib any of the poor mooks it hits. Las cannons should be insta killing any one of those gangers because fleshy bits and literal t shirts aren't stopping a weapon that blows holes through Leman Russ tanks. Auto cannon rounds would be reducing these gangers to meat chunks. Then there are the bolters which lore wise, should be far deadlier seeming GWs own lore classifies them as rocket launchers.

There would be little to no reason to use any class that isn't a heavy. Honestly I enjoy the balance as it is because even though these weapons are well below lore friendly power they are perfectly capable of making a dead ganger every round. I just chalk up this inconsistency as the weapons you're using are barely functional junk

[Corax]

Early days for the game, I know it should be marked early access but I feel these missing weapons are probably going to be added at some point just like the other three main gangs hopefully.

[Kyle Travis]

Shotguns had different ammo types so you could go solid shot and S4 or shoot a small area with S3 IIRC

[Midge]

Escrito originalmente por Machinegun Messiah:

They did error on the side of balance because of they made the heavy guns, plasma, and bolt weapons true to source material then every combat would be high powered rocket tag where every activation would result in a death as soon as the first shot landed. After all plasma cannons lore wise should paste whoever it hit and everyone around them. Even regular plasma weapons would instagib any of the poor mooks it hits. Las cannons should be insta killing any one of those gangers because fleshy bits and literal t shirts aren't stopping a weapon that blows holes through Leman Russ tanks. Auto cannon rounds would be reducing these gangers to meat chunks. Then there are the bolters which lore wise, should be far deadlier seeming GWs own lore classifies them as rocket launchers.

There would be little to no reason to use any class that isn't a heavy. Honestly I enjoy the balance as it is because even though these weapons are well below lore friendly power they are perfectly capable of making a dead ganger every round. I just chalk up this inconsistency as the weapons you're using are barely functional junk

A lot of this would be countered if they implemented a decent cover system. I would much rather a lascannon had a 25% chance to deal fatal damage or miss completely than have a 100% to deal 25% damage. On balance it's the same number of shots but having a ganger get hit with a tank destroyer and act as though I threw kettle water at them breaks the game.

The point about just taking heavies is moot because you should just get one. The rest should be a leader, gangers and juves because 'lay mechanics', saboteurs and 'dead eyes' are not types of gangers in Necromunda.

[Reaver79]

Was always a 16% chance that the tank destroyer could not hurt a child anyways..

[jeager]

Plus another 14ish% chance that for something like a lascannon/plasma cannon... it was the last shot that it would fire in the game. Lot of weapons that you got 1-2 shots out of, then had to pack them up and use something else, or in the case of plasma cannons (an AoE weapon) even if you didn't run out of ammo, it could take a full turn to recharge, leaving the user vulnerable until it had.

Most of those shots however were knockouts at the very least so in a small gang.. you weigh the potential and make a tactical choice on weapon. Weapon durability was one thing (ignored in TT for the most part), how much ammo the ganger packed was another (That played a major role in deciding the outcome of an engagement).

Escrito originalmente por Midge:

Escrito originalmente por Machinegun Messiah:

The point about just taking heavies is moot because you should just get one. The rest should be a leader, gangers and juves because 'lay mechanics', saboteurs and 'dead eyes' are not types of gangers in Necromunda.

Limit the availability of big weapons enough and it becomes a choice between having a heavy and not. I'm actually not averse to class specialisations however they shouldn't be locked at creation of the ganger. Using XP gained in a fight to unlock classes and abilities from them later would have been a great choice, and weapons should be freely usable by anyone. Class 'locks' will naturally form based on the useful skills that each gained (a 'heavy' taking a dip into 'deadeye' and sniping with a lascannon, would be natural. going into 'brawler' however would mean that they could turn the tables on an unsuspecting opponent who runs up to shut down or steal the heavy weapon. Both great options.)

[Jimbob]

They created a game where each model can take as long as they want to explore the map and find the ideal position; where creative use of the movement point system can allow a model to move a ridiculous distance each turn; where a model in cover can be flanked simply by the next activated enemy model simply running casually through what should be their killing zone to take up a position behind them.

Weak weapons are a natural consequence of that poor design decision, because anything stronger would break the game.

I think there's a reason why every single turn-based strategy ever made handles movement in a completely different way.

[Midge]

Escrito originalmente por Reaver79:

Was always a 16% chance that the tank destroyer could not hurt a child anyways..

Kinda, I choose believe that's what the pinning mechanic is there for. That it would have hit and vaporised them had they not thrown themselves on the floor. Where as a miss is a proper miss where it's so far off they don't need to consider it.

You are right though that there would always be a chance of failure. There would also always be a chance of success, even a juve with a stub gun would be able to one shot your leader if they rolled enough 6s.

With the way this junk is designed, neither of those scenarios can realistically happen. It's all bland, beige health bars like we had in their, almost as atrocious, Mordheim.