is the combat system deep?

[Terrarius]

What is your opinion?
Im a bit confused about the reviews...gameplay looks quite strategic
This review made the game look like exactly what im looking for
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKtdB78g6tI

is the combat realy lacking or are it just people that played the old games(i didnt even know about the series until i saw this game) who are upset about it beeing different?
I read one review where someone complained about removal of random encounters.....XP grinding is one of the worst aspects of these games in my opinion .Makes it realy look like salty old game fans but i can,t properly judge that as someone new

[SpectralShade]

ok, here goes.

it looks deep at first glance, but when you actually start using it and have tried using it some, you realize it isn't really deep.

Masteries: each character can select only a few abilities to have available before combat in combat. You can think of this like 'deckbuilding' in card games, except you have only 3 or 4 cards in your deck and draw your entire hand all the time. basic attacks are among these, so you can end up with a tank that can't basic attack because he used all his masteries on abilities that allows him to tank proper. what it ends up with, is that you figure out what abilities you want to use, and them use them over and over and over again.

actionpoints: someone probably thought it was a novel idea, but the effect it has on actual gameplay is to reduce some of your characters to cardboard silhoutes in combat, where they just stand there, doing nothing, while a select few of your party does the actual combat. Due to crafting requiring skill points, this means that if you want to do crafting, it is a 'good idea' to have one of your characters just stand there and then ignore him in combat because all his skill points were spent on crafting and you are better off using your few action points on the party members that were created for combat.

hitchances and damage: because you don't roll to hit (you just hit) and you don't roll for damage (damage is dictated by your strength, yes, that goes for spellcasters using spells too) combat becomes more of a lowlevel puzzle that you can 'solve' than a consideration of what might be and what might not be. You know what will happen, so there is no uncertainity.

At the end, this means replayability is lowered, because you know what will happen if you do a certain thing. It also ends up making some combats more of a chore, because you know the outcome down to the dot before it starts, but you still have to go through all the clicking and animations before it is over.

Personally, I think they really dropped the ball with the combat engine. Especially because they are limited in amount of monsters, and in 'bigger' fights, they had to resort to waves. Waves as in: you fight 4 monsters, you kill them off one by one and have a single enemy standing. then you kill the last enemy and *poof* 4 more monsters appear as 'wave 2'. Then you can have 'wave 3' happen in the same way with 2 more monsters. just an example, but it was a fight I actually experienced.

[Viper]

Seems very deep. Many skills and also skills bases on position

[Terrarius]

Originally posted by SpectralShade:

ok, here goes.

it looks deep at first glance, but when you actually start using it and have tried using it some, you realize it isn't really deep.

Masteries: each character can select only a few abilities to have available before combat in combat. You can think of this like 'deckbuilding' in card games, except you have only 3 or 4 cards in your deck and draw your entire hand all the time. basic attacks are among these, so you can end up with a tank that can't basic attack because he used all his masteries on abilities that allows him to tank proper. what it ends up with, is that you figure out what abilities you want to use, and them use them over and over and over again.

actionpoints: someone probably thought it was a novel idea, but the effect it has on actual gameplay is to reduce some of your characters to cardboard silhoutes in combat, where they just stand there, doing nothing, while a select few of your party does the actual combat. Due to crafting requiring skill points, this means that if you want to do crafting, it is a 'good idea' to have one of your characters just stand there and then ignore him in combat because all his skill points were spent on crafting and you are better off using your few action points on the party members that were created for combat.

hitchances and damage: because you don't roll to hit (you just hit) and you don't roll for damage (damage is dictated by your strength, yes, that goes for spellcasters using spells too) combat becomes more of a lowlevel puzzle that you can 'solve' than a consideration of what might be and what might not be. You know what will happen, so there is no uncertainity.

At the end, this means replayability is lowered, because you know what will happen if you do a certain thing. It also ends up making some combats more of a chore, because you know the outcome down to the dot before it starts, but you still have to go through all the clicking and animations before it is over.

Personally, I think they really dropped the ball with the combat engine. Especially because they are limited in amount of monsters, and in 'bigger' fights, they had to resort to waves. Waves as in: you fight 4 monsters, you kill them off one by one and have a single enemy standing. then you kill the last enemy and *poof* 4 more monsters appear as 'wave 2'. Then you can have 'wave 3' happen in the same way with 2 more monsters. just an example, but it was a fight I actually experienced.

Thanks
As someone who has plyed and enjoyed etrian odyssey alot i thought this could deliever the same experience just without the unbelieveably tedious grinding
Do you know good dungeon crawlers of that combatstyle on steam?

[Skdursh]

Combat seems pretty deep to me. There are a good number of options and synergies that you can bring out on the field by planning ahead and thinking creatively. Seems like the guy who responded to you with the really long post just doesn't understand what he's doing.

[Soushokudanshi]

Originally posted by Terrarius:

Originally posted by SpectralShade:

ok, here goes.

it looks deep at first glance, but when you actually start using it and have tried using it some, you realize it isn't really deep.

Masteries: each character can select only a few abilities to have available before combat in combat. You can think of this like 'deckbuilding' in card games, except you have only 3 or 4 cards in your deck and draw your entire hand all the time. basic attacks are among these, so you can end up with a tank that can't basic attack because he used all his masteries on abilities that allows him to tank proper. what it ends up with, is that you figure out what abilities you want to use, and them use them over and over and over again.

actionpoints: someone probably thought it was a novel idea, but the effect it has on actual gameplay is to reduce some of your characters to cardboard silhoutes in combat, where they just stand there, doing nothing, while a select few of your party does the actual combat. Due to crafting requiring skill points, this means that if you want to do crafting, it is a 'good idea' to have one of your characters just stand there and then ignore him in combat because all his skill points were spent on crafting and you are better off using your few action points on the party members that were created for combat.

hitchances and damage: because you don't roll to hit (you just hit) and you don't roll for damage (damage is dictated by your strength, yes, that goes for spellcasters using spells too) combat becomes more of a lowlevel puzzle that you can 'solve' than a consideration of what might be and what might not be. You know what will happen, so there is no uncertainity.

At the end, this means replayability is lowered, because you know what will happen if you do a certain thing. It also ends up making some combats more of a chore, because you know the outcome down to the dot before it starts, but you still have to go through all the clicking and animations before it is over.

Personally, I think they really dropped the ball with the combat engine. Especially because they are limited in amount of monsters, and in 'bigger' fights, they had to resort to waves. Waves as in: you fight 4 monsters, you kill them off one by one and have a single enemy standing. then you kill the last enemy and *poof* 4 more monsters appear as 'wave 2'. Then you can have 'wave 3' happen in the same way with 2 more monsters. just an example, but it was a fight I actually experienced.

Thanks
As someone who has plyed and enjoyed etrian odyssey alot i thought this could deliever the same experience just without the unbelieveably tedious grinding
Do you know good dungeon crawlers of that combatstyle on steam?

Check out Legend of Grimrock 1&2. I never, ever had to grind in that game (not even sure you can) going through it and it's one of the most stellar modern Wizardry-esque games. You can find them cheap on sales or through a key reseller like Kinguin. Could not recommend them more if you like dungeon crawling with cool puzzles and great combat. Combat is real time though like a lot of older dungeon crawlers.

[lefty1117]

SpectralShade has been ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on the game for weeks. I recommend you find additional feedback.

[starkmaddness]

Originally posted by lefty1117:

SpectralShade has been ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on the game for weeks. I recommend you find additional feedback.

Keep looking for feedback until someone tells you what you want to hear? An odd apporoach. SpectralShade's post was logical and reasoned, explaining the weaknesses of the combat system. Unless you have something to counter their points...

[lefty1117]

Originally posted by starkmaddness:

Originally posted by lefty1117:

SpectralShade has been ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on the game for weeks. I recommend you find additional feedback.

Keep looking for feedback until someone tells you what you want to hear? An odd apporoach. SpectralShade's post was logical and reasoned, explaining the weaknesses of the combat system. Unless you have something to counter their points...

He neglects to mention things like Trow Opportunity and other abilities that unlock as you level up, that increase opportunity points and create synergies between the classes. But he has an Agenda and has for a long time.

My suggestion, gather a lot of feedback and make a more rounded decision.

[Ydyp]

Originally posted by starkmaddness:

Originally posted by lefty1117:

SpectralShade has been ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on the game for weeks. I recommend you find additional feedback.

Keep looking for feedback until someone tells you what you want to hear? An odd apporoach. SpectralShade's post was logical and reasoned, explaining the weaknesses of the combat system. Unless you have something to counter their points...

He did however completely misrepressented the info so that if fits his agenda perfectly: pissing on the game.

As others said in fewer words and a more neutral tone. There is a lot of customistation possible which enabled replayability. We can't help it if mister SpectralShade only use one way to approach the combat instead of mixing it up and trying other ways to approach some combat encounters. Which the limit of only 4 skills per character brings, Just as a deckbuilder as he said. And last time I checked deckbuilders mostly have already a pretty deep system behind them to find the best synergy.

Next up is the grinding part the OP asked after, since they took out random encounters and respawn, they have taken out the excessive xp grind you can do in some games and become a god by the mid game and just wallz over every encounter they throw at you without any thoughts or tactic put into it.

[Terrarius]

Originally posted by Ydyp:

Originally posted by starkmaddness:

Keep looking for feedback until someone tells you what you want to hear? An odd apporoach. SpectralShade's post was logical and reasoned, explaining the weaknesses of the combat system. Unless you have something to counter their points...

He did however completely misrepressented the info so that if fits his agenda perfectly: pissing on the game.

As others said in fewer words and a more neutral tone. There is a lot of customistation possible which enabled replayability. We can't help it if mister SpectralShade only use one way to approach the combat instead of mixing it up and trying other ways to approach some combat encounters. Which the limit of only 4 skills per character brings, Just as a deckbuilder as he said. And last time I checked deckbuilders mostly have already a pretty deep system behind them to find the best synergy.

Next up is the grinding part the OP asked after, since they took out random encounters and respawn, they have taken out the excessive xp grind you can do in some games and become a god by the mid game and just wallz over every encounter they throw at you without any thoughts or tactic put into it.

What would you say the best dungeon crawlers of this style on pc?

[DonkeyWorld]

2 hours in and I'm thinking more than I do in older Bard's Tale, Wizardry, or M&M games. Not sure how deep it will stay long term, but there's definitely some cool resource management at work here.

Like SpectralShade said, it's obvious some characters will rarely take actions later in the game. I think this is fine as the cooldowns, opportunity points, channling, and 4 active ability limit offers you the chance to create some interesting combat interactions and party compositions. I can also see how it feels more puzzle-like, but the wealth of potential synergies means there are several different solutions to any battle's "puzzle" depending on how you've built your party.

[Soushokudanshi]

It's funny you guys mention the Trow thing, since in SpectralShade's full review he specifically mentions how race choice is irrelevant because of the overpowered Trow trait that gives more action points. His full review also makes it sound more like the problem isn't the lack of options, more that once you find ones that work, the game never gives you any real reason to switch from them. One review that snuck up before the embargo and was swiftly taken down mentioned that if you encounter the same enemies they make many of the same decisions, so strategy switching is for the most part not necessary after you find what works.

I haven't played the game yet, but this was enough corroboration to put me off of it. I don't want to discourage anybody enjoying it, it just wasn't what I was looking for.

That said, here is SpectralShade's full review which went more in-depth: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198001014480/recommended/566090/

Personally I feel like this review was competent, and after having viewed what footage I could it seemed to corroborate it enough. This is always a guessing game though, and I could be wrong.

Frankly I had the same issue with Wasteland 2 also by inXile. What appeared to be a deep RPG was actually quite shallow, especially in the combat system side of things, compared to even games like the new XCOMs which are basically strategy-lite.

[Ydyp]

Originally posted by Terrarius:

What would you say the best dungeon crawlers of this style on pc?

I haven't played all of them as I skipped a few, but to pick one as best I can't say. All the ones I did play were good in their own way. So far I like the story this game is telling and the combat system is flexible and open enough to keep me entertained. Can't wait untill I opened up more skills to play around with.

[Terrarius]

Originally posted by Ydyp:

Originally posted by Terrarius:

What would you say the best dungeon crawlers of this style on pc?

I haven't played all of them as I skipped a few, but to pick one as best I can't say. All the ones I did play were good in their own way. So far I like the story this game is telling and the combat system is flexible and open enough to keep me entertained. Can't wait untill I opened up more skills to play around with.

Could you share the list of decent stuff you have played?

[starkmaddness]

There is also the matter of a horrible AI. I watched someone fight a battle with 2 archers and 2 identical melee units. The melee unit on the end switched with the one next to it, presumably to get closer (though still not close enough to attack). Then, the other unit, now on the end, switched with the first unit. Putting them right back to where they started, only with 2 less action points.

It did that several times in the battle, while the player slowly, and tediously, killed the archers. Doesn't scream deep, so much as poorly implemented.