Serious Sam Fusion 2017 (beta)

Serious Sam Fusion 2017 (beta)

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Tilen Nov 17, 2017 @ 5:47pm
Clarification on FPS
Layman here. Hi.

So, I have a 75hz G-Sync display. If I turn V-Sync off in-game, does that mean it should reach 75 fps and above? Is there a way to cap the Vsync at 75hz?

I like having both G and Vsync on, but the game runs at 60FPS. I feel like I could do better!

Can a kind sould shine some light? Some games run at 75hz with Vsync on. What's going on?

I ask this, because there's no "75" max FPS cap in the the game that I can find. Only 90 and above.

No hate, brothers!
Last edited by Tilen; Nov 17, 2017 @ 5:52pm
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Showing 1-15 of 28 comments
Seamus Nov 17, 2017 @ 5:53pm 
Turn off vsync. Leave gsync on. Set the ingame frame cap to 90 or unlimited. Enjoy.
Tilen Nov 17, 2017 @ 5:58pm 
But won't G-Sync only kick in if it falls below 75 then, and with Vsync off it can go above 75 if there's no cap at that framerate? I don't want it to fluctuate between 75 and 90
Last edited by Tilen; Nov 17, 2017 @ 5:59pm
Seamus Nov 17, 2017 @ 6:11pm 
Fluctuations above the refresh rate on your monitor are fine. The issue is when it drops below 75, which is what gsync is for. Using both gsync and vsync kills the benefits of gsync..
Tilen Nov 17, 2017 @ 6:20pm 
I did some reading on the subject and there seems to be conflicting opinion on the subject, but there have been substantial arugments in favor of both being enabled and working in tandem since an update that changed how gsync works.

I was lead to believe that gsync will sync when the framerate dips below the screens refresh rate, while vsync takes care of the opposite--when the framerate exceeds the screen's value, in this case 75.

I am wholly confused. Could you elaborate?
Seamus Nov 17, 2017 @ 7:10pm 
Vsync tries, on a software level to cap your framerate to your screen's refresh rate. It has... mixed success. It also tends to introduce a rather large amount of input lag.

Gsync on the other hand is there to stabilize input lag and frame times when your framerate dips.

If you can consistently maintain above your refresh rate in framerate, vsync is essentially worthless. You won't get tearing because your monitor will never be lacking in frame data.

If you've got the power to stay above that 75hz on your monitor, all vsync is really doing is keeping your gpu usage down. But, you could do that without the input lag by manually capping your framerate with an external tool like dxtory, riva tuner, etc.

I REALLY don't see any point to using gsync and vsync at the same time. All it'd do is get all the disavantages of vsync and ruin the advantages of gsync.
Melody Nov 17, 2017 @ 10:25pm 
V-Sync doesn't cap anything, it just waits for vertical retrace[en.wikipedia.org].

"Capping the framerate" is a side effect. The framerate you're going to get when waiting for vertical retrace is usually equivalent to monitor's refresh rate itself, though the target framerate is said to be an "undefined behaviour", in programming terms.

Basically useless if you pair it with G-Sync. Just use G-Sync and you'll be fine if you don't pretend maximum quality.

As a side note, in terms of quality, the best frame-sync method is still V-Sync, which provides the best quality.
Last edited by Melody; Nov 17, 2017 @ 10:35pm
Tilen Nov 18, 2017 @ 2:11am 
I am very grateful for your replies! Thanks.

Edit: I am still curious though: if the upper limit for FPS isn't capped (at 75), doesn't that theoretically mean fluctuation, ie. 90 FPS when no enemies on screen, 75 FPS when there are, which in turn means variable performance in terms of smoothness? I'd rather have a constant. That's what I'm saying.

Let's say my laptop can handle 75 at all times, but above only occasionally. I don't want the extra smoothness of the occasional parts, I'd rather it be the same through and through. I am not talking just about cases when a game's physics are tied to FPS, but also what the eye can notice (motion picture quality)

I guess this then changes the question: can I cap the FPS at 75 without 3rd party software?

P.S.: Melody, your technical prowess intrigues me. I checked your profile and you mention UT. There's no Melody in Unreal Tournament games that I know of. What's your game? Who do you work for? Who sent you?
Last edited by Tilen; Nov 18, 2017 @ 3:04am
Melody Nov 18, 2017 @ 4:16am 
Originally posted by Tilen:
I am very grateful for your replies! Thanks.

Edit: I am still curious though: if the upper limit for FPS isn't capped (at 75), doesn't that theoretically mean fluctuation, ie. 90 FPS when no enemies on screen, 75 FPS when there are, which in turn means variable performance in terms of smoothness? I'd rather have a constant. That's what I'm saying.

Let's say my laptop can handle 75 at all times, but above only occasionally. I don't want the extra smoothness of the occasional parts, I'd rather it be the same through and through. I am not talking just about cases when a game's physics are tied to FPS, but also what the eye can notice (motion picture quality)

I guess this then changes the question: can I cap the FPS at 75 without 3rd party software?

P.S.: Melody, your technical prowess intrigues me. I checked your profile and you mention UT. There's no Melody in Unreal Tournament games that I know of. What's your game? Who do you work for? Who sent you?
With V-Sync off, the framerate you see in-game is the internal framerate your game is running at. For instance, 300 fps means that the game is running at 300 fps.

Your monitor always displays its framerate limit, which is usually equivalent to its refresh rate. For instance, even when the game itself runs at 300 fps, you'll likely still see 60 fps if your monitor is 60 Hz due to the monitor only being able to draw 60 frames per-second at most.

Having a much higher framerate than the monitor supports is a great way to reduce input lag, screen blurring and improve some other technical stuff, at the cost of seeing some screen-tearing. At huge monitor frequencies, such as 120 Hz or 144 Hz, it's very unlikely to see any tearing due to the huge amount of frames drawn every second, unless you're very fnicky.

In order to avoid tearing, the GPU can wait for vertical retrace, which is basically waiting for your monitor to finish before sending out the next frame. A technique that waits for vertical retrace is called V-Sync. V-Sync waits for vertical retrace before sending out frames, and this helps avoiding screen tearing. As I said, a side effect is your framerate likely being capped to your monitor's refresh rate, but this is an undefined behaviour: for instance, NTSC screens run at 60 Hz but V-Sync limits framerate to 59,94 fps as a side effect, which is not exactly 60. Some plasma screens limit framerate to 54-59 as a side effect of V-Sync.

GPUs can wait for vertical retrace without limiting the internal framerate as a side effect: an overlay is added to the surface so that a virtual surface is capped, instead of capping the internal framerate. This is called "Fast V-Sync", you can enable it in NVIDIA Control Panel.

Some advanced techniques, such as G-Sync, allow the monitor and the GPU to dynamically manage the refresh rate, so that V-Sync is not required in order to avoid Screen Tearing. I highly advice using this technique if you need a perfect balancement of quality and performance when drawing frames.

As for the UT question, I'm a well known player who belonged to a well known clan in the past, who changed nickname.
Melody Nov 18, 2017 @ 4:20am 
Also yes, you can cap your framerate using NVIDIA Inspector. I forgot that point.
Tilen Nov 18, 2017 @ 4:25am 
Well that settles it. You're a real pal, Melody. I like you. I also salute you for praising UT. UT99 is my all-time favorite lover.

Edit: sweet jesus, I am getting ~180 FPS when set to unlimited. The future is here, gentlemen.

Melody, you've spurred my V-sync-disabling spree. I've loaded up Black Mesa, among others, and disabled V-sync. Now I am forced to enjoy 250 and above FPS. What kind of an animal would suggest this?

Man is not meant to enjoy games at such high FPS. It also fluctuates wildly. Why, Melody, why?
Last edited by Tilen; Nov 18, 2017 @ 4:49am
Melody Nov 18, 2017 @ 5:32am 
Originally posted by Tilen:
Well that settles it. You're a real pal, Melody. I like you. I also salute you for praising UT. UT99 is my all-time favorite lover.

Edit: sweet jesus, I am getting ~180 FPS when set to unlimited. The future is here, gentlemen.

Melody, you've spurred my V-sync-disabling spree. I've loaded up Black Mesa, among others, and disabled V-sync. Now I am forced to enjoy 250 and above FPS. What kind of an animal would suggest this?

Man is not meant to enjoy games at such high FPS. It also fluctuates wildly. Why, Melody, why?
What causes framerate fluctuations?
Uncapping your framerate gives the most fluctuation possible due to the game using the maximum potential of your system.

There are 3 components that are mainly used in games:
• Your Graphics Card
• Your CPU
• Your RAM (in terms of speed)

In short (and without going into details) framerate is capped by the following components:
• CPU is the first limitation
• GPU is the second limitation
(we'll only take CPU and GPU into account)

• The game uses your CPU as processing power: All the mathematics and logic are computed by your CPU. Depending on how much your CPU is fast, it processes this information fast or slow, so it will allow higher framerates if it's very powerful.
• The game uses your GPU as graphics power: All the graphics stuff is computed by your GPU. Depending on how much your GPU is fast, it will compute graphics fast or slow. If it's very powerful it will allow higher framerates.

So, basically, we have 2 processors (CPU and GPU) concurrently performing operations.

Let's analyze what happens if you set the game to its lowest graphics settings:
1) You'll experience higher CPU usage than normal: The GPU is basically sleeping because most of its graphics power is not being used and this allows the CPU to run at its full potential. This generates very huge framerate fluctuations.
2) You'll experience lower GPU usage than normal: As said before, GPU is basically sleeping now and you're not using most of its power. CPU, instead, is unlocked to process at maximum speed.

Now let's analyze instead what happens if you set the game to Ultra, in 4K resolution and 4x Supersampling:
1) You'll experience very low CPU usage: The game is limited by your GPU now: The game is demanding 100% of your GPU power all the time, thus limiting your CPU processing power.
2) You'll experience 100% GPU usage: The game is demanding 100% of your GPU power all the time. This limits your CPU processing power to a maximum of "X fps".

What to do in order to reduce framerate fluctuations?
You can still limit your framerate so it is 100% stable. Also, in order to reduce framerate fluctuations and not waste frames that would otherwise be drawn, you have to find the perfect combination of graphics settings, so that CPU and GPU can be exploited at best (CPU not limiting GPU and vice-versa). This is usually a hard work to do because it's really difficult to find the perfect combination, also not always accomplishable.

Is it really better to reduce fluctuations?
1) If you're a competitive person, you'll prefer huge and unstable framerates. This insanely reduces input lag.
2) As long as the framerate is higher than your monitor's refresh rate, you usually don't have to worry about fluctuations that are above your refresh rate, since they'll be imperceptible most of the times (this is not always the case, but in order to explain that, it would take too much time and too much keyboard typing).
3) If your framerate is below your monitor's refresh rate, you'll likely want to make it more stable as possible, by either tweaking graphics settings or limiting your framerate.
Last edited by Melody; Nov 18, 2017 @ 5:32am
Tilen Nov 18, 2017 @ 5:39am 
If it were up to me, I'd make you a moderator on this Discussion board. Just saying. Just saying what Croteam should do. Like, soon. You know? Thank, bud.
Tilen Nov 18, 2017 @ 6:03am 
Okay, story time:

there was a time when I had a gaming PC and a relatively slow laptop, which I mainly used to watch films in bed etc. Those were simpler times. But along came the idea to sell the gaming PC and buy a powerful laptop instead. Now, I was oft told that the laptop would perform much worse than my PC did, so my expectations were adjusted accordingly. It was a compromise I was willing to accept...

Then the day came. I had gotten my new laptop and started Serious Sam 3: BFE, expecting my mind to be blown away by it's performance due to the game being relatively old. What I got instead, was a sour taste in my mouth (figuratively speaking, though I like sour candy but I did not have it at the time), as the game performed rather poorly.

At this point I had almost resigned to a world of low detail, low fps gaming. My happiness in this life had come to a close. Or did it?

Once already shrugged off Serious Sam Fusion caught my attention. This time around I was willing to put aside my--in retrospect--misconceptions about it being just a utility that enables one to switch games without quitting them but still needing them all installed. What I found was that not only did I not need all the previous installments installed, but the games were patched beyond belief! And so, using the built-in Autodetect feature I was able to achieve enviable 60 FPS on almost highest settings (sadly, the CPU is deemed "medium", but it was to be expected). Thinking to myseld "I'd better not push it, modesty is key" I set the FPS lock at 60.

Days went by as I played the game happily, alone and with my friends alike, feeling proud of the graphical detail I had the pleasure of enjoying, and at 60 FPS, no less! Then, along came Melody. This sweet, sensual being, filled to the brim with knowledge, kindness and patience that would eventually lead me to believe that it's a Terminator, sent from the future to find John Connor and, this time, help me explain how gaming thingies work.

Lo and behold, I heeded Melody's advice, disabling the lauded V-sync. Nothing would ever be the same again. For now, I am become FPS unlocked. I now see the world with greater clarity. No more distant, blurred visions of harpy breasts. This time, it was full monty.

Rest assured, dear reader, that my newly acquired power does indeed come with great responsibility and I am accutely aware of that. Knowing this, I shall make great effort to spread the word of my gaming exploits to my friends, strangers and foes alike. Let it be known, gentlemen (as there are, indeed, no gentle ladies on the interwebs), that I will henceforth be known as: Tilen, the 120 FPS capped.

Melody, this was for you.
Seamus Nov 18, 2017 @ 8:20am 
Thanks for getting him explanations on this, Melody. I had a pretty massive migraine last night and was having trouble putting tech related thoughts into text.
Tilen Nov 18, 2017 @ 8:39am 
Seamus, I should note that your help was also greatly appreciated. For you, a gentle smooch on the cheeck :*
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Date Posted: Nov 17, 2017 @ 5:47pm
Posts: 28