How exactly is extra enemy strength per player calculated?

[rubregg]

...because it's more than what you would think it is.

Observations:
On Hatshepsuth solo with +400% (so enemies have a total of 5 times their original health) a rocketeer dies from 1 knife hit. In 2 player coop on +400% and +200% per player (so you'd think enemies have +400% + 2 x 200%, so +800% or 9 times their original health) a rocketeer does *not* die from 2 knife hits, he needs 3.

In BFE solo with +400%, a clone soldier needs 11 pistol rounds to kill. In 2 player coop with +100/+100 (you would think that makes it a total of +300%) a clone soldier needs the same 11 pistol rounds suggesting we're actually on +400%.

So, how exactly is extra strength per player calculated?

[NSKuber]

There are three things to note here.

First, "Extra Enemy Strength" doesn't add HP to enemies, but instead reduces damage taken by them. This makes sense from implementation point of view, because when people join/leave it should be adjusted dynamically.

But there is a downside to that, because reduced damage is rounded down, and remainder is not stored. For example. if you play on +200% enemy strength, damage taken by enemies is reduced three times. But Tommygun deals 10 damage, 10/3 = (rounded down) 3. Beheaded folks have 19 hp, so on 200% enemy strength you kill them in 7 tommygun shots instead of expected 6. I really think should CT should fix this so that damage is not lost due to rounding.

Second, "Extra Enemy Strength Per Player" adds per player, not counting the first one. So if you play solo, "Extra Enemy Strength Per Player" doesn't do anything, if you play 2 player co-op it only adds for second player, etc.

Third, "Extra Enemy Strength" and "Extra Enemy Strength Per Player" count multiplicative. So when you have +100/+100, and two players, we have that "Extra Enemy Strength" gives multiplier of 2, and "Extra Enemy Strength Per Player" gives multiplier of 2 for second player, so enemies take 4 times less damage.

On to your examples, as I said, in 2 player co-op with +100/+100 you get twice double reduction, so damage taken by monsters is divided by 4. Pistol does 10 damage per shot, which, divided by 4 and rounded down, is just 2 damage, same as if you played solo with +400. And soldiers have 21 health, hence 11 shots.

And first example, in 2 player co-op with +400/+200, you get multiplier of 5 from +400, and multiplier of 3 from second player. So all damage is reduced 15 times. Knife deals 100 damage, which is rounded to 6. Hm, so rocketeer should die from 4 hits actually, with 19 hp.

Anyway, you can use this mod to check yourself what exactly is happening and how much damage you deal: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1064679286

[YnsanitY]

There IS a health increase in Coop

Originally posted by Solais:

Originally posted by RD Skypilot2:

Originally posted by Solais:

Since SS3, there's a hardcoded enemy health increase per player in Coop, yes.

So even on classic co-op it increases health per player? Even on +0% enemy strength?

Yes.

Taken from this thread: (page 4)
http://steamcommunity.com/app/564310/discussions/0/1458455461477432939/

Doesnt say how much that increase is tho.

EDIT: Added the full quote, somehow steam cut something by copying.

[The baa!]

Originally posted by YnsanitY:

There IS a health increase in Coop

Originally posted by Solais:

Yes.

Taken from this thread:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/564310/discussions/0/1458455461477432939/

Doesnt say how much that increase it tho.

This should be removed. Full stop.

[rubregg]

@NSKuber
Thank you for the detailed explanation. I'll have to digest this, and I will try out that mod you mentioned.

First thoughts:
- If a pistol shot does 10 damage, and you play on 400/200 with 2 players, by your calculation that would be a damage recuction to a 15th. So a pistol shot would deal 0.67 damage, rounded down to 0??? Is there a damage cap at 1?

- That knife thing.... I admit it was a long time ago when I noticed it and I may remember it wrong, maybe it was 4 knife hits. I will try again.

Edit:
- If damage is reduced, why does rocket jumping still cost 50hp? (it's only damage vs. enemies that is reduced, not self-damage, right? splash vs. bulls that are too close for example?)


@YnsanitY and Boocheus C. Bacon II
I read that too when it was first posted, but I doubt it's true. I have played on public servers with 0 extra enemy strength and no matter how many players, it did feel like 0 extra enemy strength. At least in classic coop. Standard coop *does* have a hardcoded extra enemy strength, I seem to remember reading a long time ago in the Sam3 boards that it's 20% per player. But only in standard coop. Classic and coin-op did not have extra strength per player. I haven't played coin-op in Fusion yet, but I have in old BFE and even with a big team I did not notice any change to a solo 0% extra strength game.

I have not yet ever gone into the numbers, but iirc on standard coop with 2 players you couldn't 1shot a Kleer with the double shotty anymore. You definitely can 1shot said kleer in Fusion classic coop with 2 players and 0 extra strength, I tried that out earlier today. Also the clone soldier test, it died from the usual 3 pistol shots.

[NSKuber]

I think Solais in his post was talking about Standard co-op, which has some extra enemy strength per player built-in. If you just play Classic co-op without additional changes, enemies will be as tough as in Singleplayer.

No gamemode and additional difficulty setting actually modifies enemy health, it just reduces damage they take, as I mentioned.

Regarding "0 damage", I haven't tried, but my guess is that in such extreme 1 and 0 situation game will round up to 1.

And yes, only damage received by enemies is reduced. It's "Extra Enemy Strength" after all.

[rubregg]

So is there a specific reason why gun damage is reduced - which brings the necessity of rounding issues - rather than enemy health increased?

And I remembered that even in classic (and possibly coin-op too), some boss type enemies do indeed have a hardcoded extra strength per player. Highlanders for example, 20 rockets solo, 31 rockets with 2 players and no extra strength set.

[Ryason55]

Because then it's simply part of the damage calculation, instead of needing a whole new section of code that modifies every enemy's Max and Current HP every time a player joins/leaves, which honestly sounds a whole lot less reliable and prone to breaking.

[NSKuber]

Originally posted by rubregg:

And I remembered that even in classic (and possibly coin-op too), some boss type enemies do indeed have a hardcoded extra strength per player. Highlanders for example, 20 rockets solo, 31 rockets with 2 players and no extra strength set.

Yes, enemies have special variable in their parameters "Minimum Extra Enemy Strength per player", which gives them extra strength per player even if game settings don't have one.
Usually used on bosses/boss-like enemies.

[rubregg]

I finally did some testing, solo and in a 2player coop game. Started out nicely, exactly as in NSKuber's explanation. Pistol damage in 400/200 is indeed rounded to 1, which of course makes sense. Knife originally 100 damage, 20 damage in 400/200 solo (matching the x5 damage reduction) and 6 damage (x15) with 2 players (6.6667 rounded down to 6).

Rocket launcher got strange though. Original damage 150, 30 in the solo game (x5 works out as expected), BUT 9 with 2 players, even though 150/15 is exactly 10, no rounding needed. I'll do some more testing with more players when I get to it.