Classes issues

[Loyaluna]

Hi everyone.
As far as i prefer medic class i couldn't help but notice some issues which affects it very badly. Here are some of my thoughts about that (mostly medics, right).

1) The medic rifle cannot be recharged or reloaded.
That's not nice, especially on big maps with all the running. There's a lot of rooms with ammo, centry guns and healkits, not mentioning special ammo packs for rifles, autoguns etc. - why do they never have a medic rifle? In the middle of the game, depending on allies's skills of avoiding damage, you (especially Faith) become f...ing miserable because you have nothing but a single gun, usually tesla, for you pick it to avoid friendly firing your allies from the centre on the squad, the items are used and the medrifle is empty, and your combat skills are breaking the bottom from that side...
Is there any chance the medic gun will ever gain the ability to be reloaded? Is there any challenge which helps with this problem?

2) The medic rifle disappears when used out.
Imagine the situation: you are healing your ally, the ammo says "001 -> 000", and in the very next second your ally gets his ass shot by your second-hand item, whatever it is. That's a relief medics almost never carry grenade launchers, you may think now.
Well, okay, once I had medic amplifier rifle... i usually pick this one for it has more options for your gameplay, you know. Well, there was a time i was ampliying my ally who was in the front, Rambo with a minigun facing the horde, and guess what? The rifle was empty and in the second i noticed that my ally got a grenade (the second attack of the assault rifle) right up main street.
So, here's the idea: what if the medic rifle never just disappeared? The 000 ammo, as any other used out gun shows, would be nice, won't it?

3) The centry guns can't be reloaded.
I think here i did say quite enough already, right?))

Well, any opinions (except maybe f... you) are welcomed =^.^=
Good luck and have fun!

[NoName]

You always can pick gun's from dead mates.
Try to use not only Tesla.
(1 - 3) Challenge "Energy weapon" - Ammo recharges when not shooting, but reloading and ammo pickups are disabled.
gl hf

[zerodepth]

1) It is working ok. There are medkits / beacons on some maps (as ammo is). You usually don't need more healing than Bastille offers (with beacons), if you do you can switch to Faith, use both medics or go full medic (without a gun). The best way is to avoid damage, so u don't have to heal at all.

2) Good idea.

3) I don't like sentries to be reloaded. It's not much fun to watch sentry doing damage while you sit around doing nothing. And it has enough ammo to cover you, when you have to do someting, or provide additional firepower when needed.

[Loyaluna]

Yeah, well, both of you are saying that medics are unnecessary in the game.

Originally posted by NoName:

You always can pick gun's from dead mates.
Try to use not only Tesla.
(1 - 3) Challenge "Energy weapon" - Ammo recharges when not shooting, but reloading and ammo pickups are disabled.
gl hf

1) well, if i'm a good medic, i have no dead mates. And this is what usually happens, in fact. Or dead mates are dead when you have 50% of the healgun. Or they die and give you nothing - autoguns, vindicators etc.
2) I don't use Tesla only. But the point is that the one unspecialized gun is much weaker than any other with additional combat bonuses - vindicator, autogun, grenade launder etc. It is weaker, it causes problems with reload (as far as you have only 1 gun and medics has no melee bonuses), it provides only 1 way of action.
3) Thanks))

Originally posted by zerodepth:

1) It is working ok. There are medkits / beacons on some maps (as ammo is). You usually don't need more healing than Bastille offers (with beacons), if you do you can switch to Faith, use both medics or go full medic (without a gun). The best way is to avoid damage, so u don't have to heal at all.

2) Good idea.

3) I don't like sentries to be reloaded. It's not much fun to watch sentry doing damage while you sit around doing nothing. And it has enough ammo to cover you, when you have to do someting, or provide additional firepower when needed.

1) yeah, well, how am i supposed to act if my allies suck in evasion? Should i heal only myself, or what? Is that something you here advice every new player? Then i know why i see that much problems with teamplay in every single game.
2) Thanks ^^
3) Well, it's your kind of gameplay, right? I don't really like playing only sentries like some of the players do, but i tolerate their ability to have fun of the game, even if the way they do it differs from mine. I also think that bringing more balance and more abilities into the game will be better than now is - GLs abuse on Brutal, flamethrowers abuse on Normal etc. - it's f...ng boring, for god's sake, and i'm playing, like, for just a month.

___

By the way, the thing i forgot to mention is after-game statistics. I would really like to see one table for medics too. When there're 8 ppl in the game and 2 of them are medics and we have a problem with healing, i'd like to know who's playing for only himself, like all those guys who speedrun the map, leaving all the squad to deal with hordes they've disturbed. But with the medics it's not that visible so stats would really help.

[Frodo]

1 agree with zero, but if you dont, then you can go to workshop, theres a lot of mods.
theres 1 too that adds all kinds of options regarding healing buffs or revives !

2 !!!yes hahaha, lemme heal you bro.....aaaaand flamer in your face XD

3 The ammo is too few to be viable for most missions.
And then the freeze/flamer is even worse, it just runs out in a few seconds.
Even for most defence missions its almost never worth the slot, i very rarely use it.

Maybe being able to reload them with an ammo pack or something isnt that bad of an idea
So they can start being viable in shorter missions with long defence parts
To prevent 16 turret games, you can make them like deva's , max 1 & only 1 class

Alien swarm 3, 10player games, 2 engineers characters XD
-> special class weaps: sentrygun - buffed tesla coils
skills: melee bonus - health bonus - ammopack bonus(1extra)
skills: speed bonus - damage bonus - ammopack bonus(2extra)

[NoName]

Originally posted by Loyaluna:

1) well, if i'm a good medic, i have no dead mates. And this is what usually happens, in fact. Or dead mates are dead when you have 50% of the healgun. Or they die and give you nothing - autoguns, vindicators etc.
2) I don't use Tesla only. But the point is that the one unspecialized gun is much weaker than any other with additional combat bonuses - vindicator, autogun, grenade launder etc. It is weaker, it causes problems with reload (as far as you have only 1 gun and medics has no melee bonuses), it provides only 1 way of action.
3) Thanks))

(1) Sadly but good medic can't be with two separate groups; who are lagging behind and moving ahead.
(2) I recommend (Assault/Combat)Rifle or Twin Pistols at Normal - Insane, on the Insane/Brutal difficulty you can try Eagle. I can't say nonspecialized weapon weaker; they depend on more skills for using them.

[Loyaluna]

Originally posted by NoName:

(1) Sadly but good medic can't be with two separate groups; who are lagging behind and moving ahead.
(2) I recommend (Assault/Combat)Rifle or Twin Pistols at Normal - Insane, on the Insane/Brutal difficulty you can try Eagle. I can't say nonspecialized weapon weaker; they depend on more skills for using them.

well, never tried Eagle actually, maybe it's the time to make a difference ^^
thanks for the advice :3

[Frodo]

Originally posted by NoName:

You always can pick gun's from dead mates.
Try to use not only Tesla.

Tesla can last all game long anyway, the topic is about healguns

Originally posted by Loyaluna:

you are saying that medics are unnecessary in the game.

Zero means, that if you run out of meds&health, the team just played too poorly.
Altho i agree its rather few, especially on long missions, thats kind of the point, to make it hard.
And its not like medic is useless, they bring like multiple full hp bars to the team, quite op!
Try the workshopmod with more heals, its just not fun anymore if theyre buffed.

Originally posted by Loyaluna:

It is weaker

thats the point of a medic right, the other classes bring damage, you bring support.
maybe thats hard at the start, with teams having bad positioning.
but dw it'll get easyer playing with more skilled players, you can just use them as shield.
[/quote]

Originally posted by Loyaluna:

But with the medics it's not that visible so stats would really help

you can see their med supply going down in the hud.
when you get more experience, you start needing less focus on enemies.
so you have more time for other things, like observing the medics when people are hurt, spamming the heal icon to remind them someone is hurt XD

Originally posted by Loyaluna:

it provides only 1 way of action.

ye can be boring sometimes, but clutch medic saves are quite fun too.
maybe the mechanics are ez, but awareness & prediction isnt at all

I mean sometimes i see 1 out of position, the average joe medic is too busy focussing on the biggest group of players.
I position myself in a way i can quickly run to both the team and the loner if needed.
when i see his hp drop, i notice instandly and run while throwing a max range frost nade
without even seeing him yet, just knowing he'll show up in that area very soon.

barely see this kind of medic oddly enough, most just play healbot for the pack.
eventho prediction plays can saves games. and being 0.01s in time, is very satisfying XD

Originally posted by Loyaluna:

how am i supposed to act

well your main issue is that your team is unskilled. that problem will slowly vanish when you start playing on higher difficulties with veterans.

to decide how to heal, you need to think ahead.
- is it a teammission? i.e. high tension
- is it a solohero mission? i.e. timor station

For really hard solo missions, you want to make sure the best tech or best carry stays alive.
Stay with him, feed that beast. Optionally save 2ndairy carries or the 2nd tech where you can.

You top up the carriers, for the rest of the players you give them heals based on their performance.
Carries/tech -> 100% health all the time
Good -> heal them back to 80%
Decent -> heal back to 60%
Useless -> up to max 40%

if they take minor damage, you can give them a love tap of 5% to give them attention.
this way everyone gets heals, they wont cry, yet you save meds for the carry.
the useless are most likely to die with 30% so you wont need to refill them often.
and if players step up and survive longer, you promote them, give them more health

but for really hard team reliant missions like high tension. this strategy wont work.
here everyones value rises, even the noobs and meatshields have big value here.
so i usually try something more like
carries -> 100%
good -> 95% to make them aware, heals are not infinite
decent -> 80%
useless -> 50%

[NoName]

Originally posted by Captain:

Originally posted by NoName:

You always can pick gun's from dead mates.
Try to use not only Tesla.

Tesla can last all game long anyway, the topic is about healguns

Do you read this part?

Originally posted by Loyaluna:

...In the middle of the game, depending on allies's skills of avoiding damage, you (especially Faith) become f...ing miserable because you have nothing but a single gun, usually tesla, for you pick it to avoid friendly firing your allies from the centre on the squad, the items are used and the medrifle is empty, and your combat skills are breaking the bottom from that side...

She write a situtation i answer what she can do

[[DBH].Whismerhill.{SSgt}]

hello,
haaaa the medic <3
I understand your point totally, I've played medic plenty in Alien Swarm & ASRD
It's indeed totally annoying to get empty on meds & then your team dies horribly
but in the end it's because they took too much damage....
Rechargeable medic stuff comes at a price :

As you increase medic abilities, players don't need to watch out or be careful anymore

and you fall back to helldivers type of game, I own helldivers, it's an immensely enjoyable game
but ammo is unlimited, respawn is infinite, healing is unlimited (if taking the heal gun secondary or heal backpack), and health regenerates.
Essentially in helldivers the equivalent heal gun (REP-80) is terribly OP because of its unlimited ammo and fast healing rate (but the fast healing rate is essential in helldivers given the small health pool. the only issue with it is that you're cutting down your team's firepower by 1/4th when you're healing (can't heal & damage at the same exact time)

the problem with those mechanics is that people don't watch out anymore, oups I launched a missile strike on a team mate & killed him ? no matter I'll just respawn him.

back to Alien Swarm while you can die fast, most of the time if you know what you're doing, you're gonna lose health bit by bit & die after a while (if that happens)
increasing medics abilities is therefore problematic because basically you're making the whole game easier, and people suddenly can near TK you then heal you back to full health too much, and watching your fire doesn't become essential anymore.... promoting the lack of skill

I have nothing against casuals & newcomers mind you, and that's why there is a workshop with options !

(as well as plenty of easier difficulties)


Finally, back in AS days, with a few chosen people we did no medic full vanilla Jacob's campaign hardcore Friendly Fire, Brutal onslaught with 0~1 death. The fact of having a trained team, and additional firepower due to no medic compensated the lack of aforementioned medic. Hence you shouldn't really need more medic, the people you play with just need more training. There is nothing bad in requiring more training
We were all beginners at some point, I killed people by accident when I started playing hardcore FF (and also the infamous shoulder kill with jaeger/vindi.. lag/synch we all love you to death)

[Nyu]

a good team does not really need a medic
but tesla helps alot.
tesla is really overpowered. there is no damage but the stun is so extrem.

i like point 2
but normally why should u heal someone beside vegas? everyone else who got damage results from bad teamplay on vanilla (90%)
sometimes maybe a wrong reload

u dont need alot of meds if u are good with tesla.
no need for more meds
and where do.u need to reload a sentry? get faster if u need a whole sentry to do ur mission

[Frodo]

Originally posted by NoName:

I recommend (Assault/Combat)Rifle or Twin Pistols at Normal - Insane, on the Insane/Brutal difficulty you can try Eagle. I can't say nonspecialized weapon weaker; they depend on more skills for using them.

pistols and rifles are garbage in damage
eagle has good damage, amazing for speedruns, but garbage for keeping control

what you want to bring is control or big damage with some form of control

for damage, miniguns, grenade launchers, vindicator, chainsaw, railgun, mines
for control, tesla, flamer , eca, frost nades
or bring heals&ammo

for heals medgun -> beacons, beacons are more efficient, but this game is all about moving and positioning, immobile&smallaoe is rather useless.

since you're a weak medic with only 1 slot left, you definitely want a control weapon
flamer is easyer, offers fast firespeed, slows, and small damage(unrelevant in high diff)
tesla has a slower firespeed, but a very strong slow, and no ff, so easyer to support people with
at high difficulties only tesla is used due to its stronger slow effect.

for equips:
frost nades - more charges, can save allies, bigger aoe, better stun, increased damage
eca - parasite protection, stuns new incomming drones(good for pushing&chainsaw)
so id say frost nades > eca, unless you run chainsaw or have big parasite treat.
since you're a medic, you should never be the first to run into a para. take frost nades

for other characters you should take the weapons that fit their bonusses
melee bonus -> chainsaw
explosive bonus -> gl
vindy bonus -> vindy
mg bonus -> mg
damage bonus -> any weapon with big damage

heres the most used sets in high level play:

vegas: chainsaw - gl - eca
- hard skill to play, to keep control make sure you stun all the drones
you do this by shaking the mouse a little to hit them all, or to aim well
- highly valuable due to the best tech slot, leave this to a good player!!!

crash: railgun/ammo - gl - eca, i would however preffer frost nades
- very hard to play, you dont have much self defence, heavy ff risk, dont go solo!!

jaeger: vindy - gl - mines, optionally chainsaw, but not recommended
- extremely hard to play, due to no control weapon nor equip. and heavy ff risk.
- extremely valuable due to the best damage slot, leave this for the best player!!!

sarge: vindy - gl - mines, optionally a control weap, but not recommended
- extremely hard to play, less damage than jaeger, more health
- good general damage bonus, so other weapons are an option too

faith: tesla - medgun - frostnades
- easiest to play, due to control weapon, speed and meds
- highly valuable due to the best healer slot, leave this for to a good player!!!

bastille: tesla - medgun - frostnades, optionally adrenaline, but not recommended
- easy to play, due to control weapon and meds

//as mentioned before tho, easyest to play, but not easy to master awareness&prediction.

wolf: minigun - ammo - frostnades, no other options since his mg damage is overpowered
- medium skill to play, keep control by slowly shaking your mouse a bit.
this will make you shoot wider, stunning all the drones, making it waaaaay easyer to control
- dont go autogun, garbage damage & cant shoot wide to stun the drones

wildcat: minigun/devastator - ammo - frostnades, optionally any other weapons
- hard to play, due to low hp combined with high speed, dont rush too fast XD
- very versatile due to big general damagebonus, can use any weapon



damn i typed a lot lol, is there a nice forum/yt guide that explains the above?
maybe i'll try to make a good videoguide, if theres no very clear one yet.

[NoName]

A lot of work Cap, gj, thanks for your opinion about equipment for the medic, hope it will be useful to Loyaluna and will be helpful basis info for your guide. Einen schönen Tag noch!

[[DBH].Whismerhill.{SSgt}]

Just wanted to add to that good writeup :
tesla slow isn't really its most strong point though it does help, flamer is much better just for slowing
Tesla strongest ability is its stunning/interruption power, which triggers "flinch" animation on most aliens in most situations (not always, particularly if it has recently been stunned already and can save a team mate from being hit even when the alien is right in his face

For efficiency & ammo conservation, Tesla needs to be used sparingly: short burst delivered at the right time & a good delay between bursts are way more efficient over repeated long bursts in most playmodes.

[Loyaluna]

yeah, this is exactly what i didn't want to see. "Heal skilled players only", "medic not needed" etc. This is so friendly, well-intentioned and respectful to others, wow.

for the weapon choice - well, this is nice you write it down here, but i didn't really ask for that. As soon as i got my third promotion and made it out to online (before that was playing single to learn the game) i made some posts here and received as a result an interesting company who told me about guides, workshop and other things ^^ (i'm new to Steam so yeah, that was useful)

and as far as i'm glad to see that my usual choise of frostnades (between eca and f-nades) is esteemed, i still do think that medic's role in this game when your healgun is empty is miserable.

[zerodepth]

Originally posted by Loyaluna:

yeah, this is exactly what i didn't want to see. "Heal skilled players only", "medic not needed" etc. This is so friendly, well-intentioned and respectful to others, wow.

...

and as far as i'm glad to see that my usual choise of frostnades (between eca and f-nades) is esteemed, i still do think that medic's role in this game when your healgun is empty is miserable.

Don't heal skilled players only, heal everyone. But don't heal when in combat (if not needed = para / fire, or if you havent beacons), rather fight with Bastille / stun with Faith. Heal after combat. It's generally more effective.

If you keep running out of heal, it means your mates don't play too well and they are encouraged to learn to avoid damage in next games, which is good.

There are 2 kinds of medics, support medic (Faith) and combat medic (Bastille). Both perform well when out of meds and that role (support = stun / combat = kill) is more important than healing.