automatic leaderboards cleanup script AND jump is not a cheat

[Godsninja]

So I never spoke up before when I heard people arguing about the leaderboard, but I am now.

The other day I saw the player 1ofakind beat Jacobs Landing in 0:54:833 so I wanted to beat that time or at least see how. Somehow a lot of the players I play with managed to get online at the same time, so we planned it, found a faster way, and we executed it, achieving 0:53:1xx (I can't remember milliseconds, but it was >1.5s faster). It wasn’t easy, taking us some time, but we did it. A couple days later, both scores are gone. Yes, we used jump (asw_marine_rolls 0). Note: This is not a cheat, it has been a part of the game since it started, most servers just have roll enabled by default. ( Some might say this is the opposite of a cheat since its set to ZERO )

So I asked Dmitriy. It would seem that an “automatic leaderboard cleanup script” removed our scores. Dmitriy defended it saying jump should be a cheat and not to use it for speedruns. He didn’t disclose how the script works, but I highly doubt it recognizes if jump is on or not, as tested (see comments). So, slower = "more legitimate" = your score won't get pulled. Is that how it works? So now, the "fastest" is 0:56:xxx. Which do I need to point out, is not possible without jump?(See comment from Quantum reply). Even if it IS, that is not the point.

If you beat the record time and the script says you are too fast, your record gets pulled, irrespective of whether you used jump to do it or not.

If you use jump but are too slow, you’re record does not get pulled. See 0:56 on Jacobs.

Thus, the script is not aimed at jump, and is directed towards time.

Scroll back up, put yourself into the position of someone who is not yourself, and read it again. THIS IS DISHONESTY LITERALLY PROGRAMMED INTO THE GAME. Honesty, truthfulness, fairness, responsibility, trust. These things matter. We jumpers respect that you rollers want to roll. But you are going to have to accept that most of the time, we are simply faster than you. And then we continue to live together because we live with honor as people of the 21 century.

Possible Solutions:
1) KISS: Make this script less aggressive and keep jump. Stop micromanaging your precious leaderboard.
2) Implement a way to see if jump is on or not. If it’s ON, note it in the leaderboard results. Most complicated option.
3) Make jump a cheat, wipe leaderboard, and leave room for jump challenges or options.

[jhheight]

going out of bounds is not fair, 56 second korean time is legit and they worked hard.

[Ax-now]

In the eyes of the speedrun community, runs performed without a record are simply not valid.
Without or with jump, if your time has no video proof it is considered like cheating time (in theory).

Wanting your time to be valid on the leaderboard doesn't really make sense, if you really care about speedrun you need video proof, it has always been like.
The rd leaderboard is a personal little treat that doesn't matter.

[screamingcrane]

I think that hops on should be it`s own leader board much like challenges have there own.
I have used hops before and with that I do believe that they give an obvious advantage in speed running.

[trick-master]

Ax-now の投稿を引用：

In the eyes of the speedrun community, runs performed without a record are simply not valid.
Without or with jump, if your time has no video proof it is considered like cheating time (in theory).

Wanting your time to be valid on the leaderboard doesn't really make sense, if you really care about speedrun you need video proof, it has always been like.
The rd leaderboard is a personal little treat that doesn't matter.

If somehow it's possible to make people autosend the .dem file if they get a (better) spot in leaderboard, that would be so freaking awesome!

Also, jumps should be a cheat cvar, and I wish there was the record of that korean team run, because yeah, no way to know if legit without it.

[Godsninja]

jhheight の投稿を引用：

going out of bounds is not fair, 56 second korean time is legit and they worked hard.

Without jump, I don't believe it.

[tracksone]

just stop cheating, problem solved

[Sir Greedy]

56 seconds is not a legit time without jump. Worked hard my ass. also thrash and quantumripple( the current record holders) are not Korean.(what does this have to do with anything?) i know them both. jump was used. Godsles's points are accurate.

Either make jump a cheat and wipe the leaderboard.
or leave it alone.
making a guess about if jump was used or not and deleting some times while leaving others is not effective, or fair.

[jhheight]

The 56.5 brutal korean player time is legit, the 56.3 one on normal is obvious cheat

[QuantumRipple]

I'm currently #1 on the Jacobs Landing leaderboard (after the cleanup script) with that 56 second time. We absolutely used jump. We didn't use any actual cheats though.

I'd be pleased with any of the proposed solutions. I don't really like spending a bunch of time trying to micro a run to get the top leaderboard spot to have it deleted. As-is, you can't compete for the top spots without jump - even after this cleanup script. If you could actually guarantee all the leaderboard runs are done without jumps/OOB, I'd be only too happy to do my own runs without jumps/OOB.

[Sir Greedy]

jhheight の投稿を引用：

The 56.5 brutal korean player time is legit, the 56.3 one on normal is obvious cheat

we were indeed are talking about the normal leader board. I have no doubts that 56 seconds on brutal is possible.

But the real discussion is not whether jump was used, it obvious. The debate is what to do moving forward. Removing times with a script isn't working.

My suggestion is the same its been for years. Rip off the band-aid and make jump a cheat already. Scrub the leaderboards and start over.
Some may not like that, it's harsh, but i dont see any other solution, other than allowing jump. I would be happy with either, but prefer the former.

[Sir Greedy]

I'm curious if anything will actually be done about this. It's been an easily fixable problem for far too long.

[screamingcrane]

I still believe that hops as it`s own challenge with it`s own leader board is the middle ground thus you wouldn`t have to scrub the whole board it would just be moved over. Only down side is for those who did speedruns without em because they`d get moved over as well but it`s the best I can think of.

[Sir Greedy]

screamingcrane の投稿を引用：

I still believe that hops as it`s own challenge with it`s own leader board is the middle ground thus you wouldn`t have to scrub the whole board it would just be moved over. Only down side is for those who did speedruns without em because they`d get moved over as well but it`s the best I can think of.

I somewhat agree, but that leader board is already tainted. if you moved it now, then the current times where hops were used will remain, while other times where hops were used are still gone. Like our 53.1 on landing bay. Yeah we could get it again, but if thats the case, then why not everyone has to get their times again? Just scrub it all. Or just the stages with possible OOB/time saves from hops

[Ax-now]

The leaderboard at the present time does not make sense anyway.
For it to be, it would take several categories, Legit sr / OOB sr / superjump + OOB sr / etc..

Anyway the leaderboard does not count to be considered a valid sr time, if you wanted this to be the case you had to send a video proof and the explanations of your category on speedrun.com

[YOJIMBO]

Jumping is not a cheat but it gives you advantage over other players speed runs that use the default rolling feature. Having a advantage over other players using other than default values is plain cheating.