automatic leaderboards cleanup script AND jump is not a cheat

[Godsninja]

So I never spoke up before when I heard people arguing about the leaderboard, but I am now.

The other day I saw the player 1ofakind beat Jacobs Landing in 0:54:833 so I wanted to beat that time or at least see how. Somehow a lot of the players I play with managed to get online at the same time, so we planned it, found a faster way, and we executed it, achieving 0:53:1xx (I can't remember milliseconds, but it was >1.5s faster). It wasn’t easy, taking us some time, but we did it. A couple days later, both scores are gone. Yes, we used jump (asw_marine_rolls 0). Note: This is not a cheat, it has been a part of the game since it started, most servers just have roll enabled by default. ( Some might say this is the opposite of a cheat since its set to ZERO )

So I asked Dmitriy. It would seem that an “automatic leaderboard cleanup script” removed our scores. Dmitriy defended it saying jump should be a cheat and not to use it for speedruns. He didn’t disclose how the script works, but I highly doubt it recognizes if jump is on or not, as tested (see comments). So, slower = "more legitimate" = your score won't get pulled. Is that how it works? So now, the "fastest" is 0:56:xxx. Which do I need to point out, is not possible without jump?(See comment from Quantum reply). Even if it IS, that is not the point.

If you beat the record time and the script says you are too fast, your record gets pulled, irrespective of whether you used jump to do it or not.

If you use jump but are too slow, you’re record does not get pulled. See 0:56 on Jacobs.

Thus, the script is not aimed at jump, and is directed towards time.

Scroll back up, put yourself into the position of someone who is not yourself, and read it again. THIS IS DISHONESTY LITERALLY PROGRAMMED INTO THE GAME. Honesty, truthfulness, fairness, responsibility, trust. These things matter. We jumpers respect that you rollers want to roll. But you are going to have to accept that most of the time, we are simply faster than you. And then we continue to live together because we live with honor as people of the 21 century.

Possible Solutions:
1) KISS: Make this script less aggressive and keep jump. Stop micromanaging your precious leaderboard.
2) Implement a way to see if jump is on or not. If it’s ON, note it in the leaderboard results. Most complicated option.
3) Make jump a cheat, wipe leaderboard, and leave room for jump challenges or options.

[trick-master]

Origineel geplaatst door Loli:

there is some dude who made the challenge all cheats in one, or so. forgott the name (he only advertises it every week 2 times)
that dude tried to tell me you cannot change spawns with it. and spawns are server protected.
same dude says anticheat is working on one of the worst servers eu got.

All in one allows you to change spawnset, that's why there is 4 different challenge, each with a different spawnset.

What I told you is that you lie when you say this overwrite server settings. Each challenge have it's own alien_selection file that controls spawnset. So whenever you change challenge, spawnset gets changed.

As usual, I'm waiting for you to show me any proof of me hacking, and your claims that my challenge all in one change server settings in order to cheat out leaderboard time is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.
Not even counting the fact that there is "rd_leaderboard_enabled 0" in the challenge setting...

But usual Nyu, trashtalking me without any proof, trashtalking anticheat server after getting caught cheating in it cheating, and angry in general because I have video recordings of you cheating.

[Godsninja]

Dayum trick I like that challenge ;) Makes things absolutely wild.

What about the ability to do jump as a roll + alt key? Make ASRD2 with that and scrap this.
Another option :)

We should have a giant poll of all the options/things mentioned in this thread. Cuz I have lost track of all the different ways about going about solving this problem. Were elements fundamentally different from Greedy's? We have like 4 or 5 options here. It's a goldmine of valuable feedback. Yea we totally need emojis :P

[trick-master]

Glad you like my challenge, worked my ass off for it hehe, code is pretty messy due to the laaaarge number of settings (8k lines of codes in just the main file, and over 50ish more files lol), but yeah, u can now create your own challenge (or combination of challenges) without having to know how to code :) And disregard nyu's comment, he's always confusing his mouth and butt, and talks with the latter.

As for your solutions, in the end there's only one : make a stance on rolls as a developper if you decide to remove times because of it (aka, make it a cheat cvar, so greedy's solution)

Element solution is just some extra check on challenge, that could most likely be bypassed by server (got told again that sourcemod can change cvar, so not sure why elem thinks otherwise, and even if it truly can't, server owners can still just recompile server.dll without the extra check and thus going into leaderboard).
It would prevent some cheats, so it doesn't need to be disregarded entirely, but that wouldn't entirely solve the cheat times on leaderboard issue, so would still need clean-up script in addition to that solution.
Also, it would not change anything on the issue of rolls. There is a stance that needs to be made by the dev on it. Players can give their opinions on whether they think it is one or not, but only game owners can decide.

Another thing that is flawed is that you (and others) say the clean-up script just removes times depending on an arbitrary time, but no one apart dev knows how the script works, so this assumption might be (hopefully is) very wrong.
For all we know, the clean-up script could have removed the times for something else than roll entirely.
Although it "seems" rolls was the culprit, hence the need for dev stance on it, but even then, saying the script just check some arbitrary time instead of directly checking if rolls were activated shouldn't be assumed that easily. There is no proof that it works like that, and if it is, then leaderboard is pretty much doomed from the start, because with only that kind of check, there's just no way whatsoever to know which time is legit.

EDIT : that being said, my opinion on rolls is that it should be considered a cheat, because being able to get speedrun achievement by going on the roof is just as silly as it gets. There's already maps (*cough* insertion point *cough*) where u can go roof, and is there even a point to compete on those time-wise?

"Hey I beat ultra mega asbi carnage 50 etc in insertion point"
"Nice, how did you do it?"
"Well, I went to roof, lured a few hordes to hit the drone limit, then continued from the roof, hordes couldn't spawn anymore, so I just did last hack as if it was vanilla"

Yep, that would be sad, and having times with rolls just make this insertion point issue applied to way much more maps.

[YOJIMBO]

Origineel geplaatst door element109:

I created a patch today to prevent sourcemod from changing challenge cvars.

Upload it to game repo, so all servers could benefit from your job.

[YOJIMBO]

Origineel geplaatst door element109:

As soon as client.dll is not banned my hundreds of commits containing bug fixes and new features will be uploaded.

You either commit it, or stop boasting.

[Godsninja]

IMO automatic cleanup script is BOGUS and should never be used again, at least not in the capacity that it currently exists (if it even exists, and it's not just Dm removing scores, which for all we know, it could be). If there is no way to cheat than it only serves to remove records that are faster/better than you (yes, BETTER, me and greedy used that mushy thing inside our skulls, NO ONE had to tell us how to cut the time). That is WEAK. Systems like that have never survived, and they never will. Not in real life, not in a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ video game.

[trick-master]

Origineel geplaatst door Godsless:

IMO automatic cleanup script is BOGUS and should never be used again, at least not in the capacity that it currently exists (if it even exists, and it's not just Dm removing scores, which for all we know, it could be).

But that's the thing, we don't know how it works, so until we do, we can report weird cases like you did, but it's up to dim to decide if that was intended or just script being bogus.

If there is no way to cheat than it only serves to remove records that are faster/better than you

Elem just said a bit earlier that his server would allow extended view, which is a cheat, so of course there are ways to cheats, hence the need for something to prevent it. (although, I'd rather have VAC with some anticheat to prevent it than having a clean-up script)

Origineel geplaatst door element109:

As soon as client.dll is not banned my hundreds of commits containing bug fixes and new features will be uploaded.

So you want to help with cheat prevention on server only if client cheat becomes allowed by default? o.O
If there was some VAC, then sure, allowing client modification is fine, as the cheat modifications would be taken care of by VAC, but otherwise, doing so means the stance on cheats is OK.

[jhheight]

vac is nohope trick

[Godsninja]

If I understand correctly, some servers can enable cheats, and they can still add to the leaderboard? Element says his server doesn't, but that doesn't mean other servers can't... right? Someone could just max out marine speed, and in some cases, this would result in a faster time than with jump (and even crazier times w/ it on as well).

That should be patched. I think that is another topic though. That is ACTUAL cheating.

Although when it comes to views, I don't think they should be cheats. At least in the honest way element implemented the extended view (as long as it's not co-op ofc). The command is adjacent to rotate. I digress.

[trick-master]

As you can guess, there are more cheats than that, extended view can be done server side like elem do, or client sided, like hacked/modified clients (aka the client.dll file, which is what elem is asking to allow by default, since now, the cvar controlling wether modded clients can connect to servers is OFF by default, but ON on many dedicated server).

But yes, there are way more cheats than that, there are stuff changing the speed (speed hack, and the opposite kinda, Time Assisted speedrun, aka, make the whole game slower/under adrenaline), I saw some guy in public server (Find a Game thingy) that had godmode enabled directly (and he got the achievements after finishing the map too...). There's also the very very obvious cheats that gives 0.1sec time to finish map, etc. etc. etc.

Back to topic, roll/jump is NOT a cheat officially in the sense it's not a cheat var, hence the need to change that, everyone would agree.
That being said, most ppl would also agree that it is a cheat (even if not officially a cheat) to use jumps in order to get speedrun, as there is no nodes in roof, which bugs out all aliens.

As for camera rotation, yes, it also allows some nade spot u can't do without, so kinda like extnded view (and even worse for 21:9 screens, which already have an extended view on the left/right side), but I personally feel rotating camera is ok, and I wish this cvar allowing rotation was ON by default instead (as I put in the other thread as well).

For extended view, (and change of view in general, there's distance, but also pitch), I feel it is pretty much a cheat, as it allows you to nade/teleport with boots/etc. waaay further, and not only, you can see hordes from quite far away, which make things easier. For speedrun, well, it affects distance u can use boots and such, so of course it can have a big impact. Heck, being able to just nade hordes where they spawn while others don't even know where they are is quite a big impact imo.

Also, RIP VAC I guess, but that would still be the best option if we want to truly stop cheats (and I'm pretty sure speedhack and the like triggers VAC on CS:GO or whatnot, so it shouldn't be that hard to prevent any external tool/client modifications via VAC).
If we have VAC, servers wanting to use a different server.dll can just disable VAC (then no leaderboard time), and clients will also have no choice but to use regular client on a VAC enabled server if they want a time on leaderboard, removing most cheats (I guess there will always be private cheats that could remain undetected, but even just the fear of getting VAC banned might prevent those as well)

[Rise]

wipe my crews record times all you want. i take it as a compliment and an acknowledgement that whoever wiped it cant beat us. we'll set new records for you to not be able to beat and ya can use your script to wipe those too if you want. and we wont cheat when we do it. anyone is welcome to spectate.

[YOJIMBO]

Leaderboard, since release was always only a visual addendum to the game and should never be taken seriously. Burning more than a minute to write few lines about Leaderboard it's just a waste of time.

[Sir Greedy]

Origineel geplaatst door YOJIMBO:

Leaderboard, since release was always only a visual addendum to the game and should never be taken seriously. Burning more than a minute to write few lines about Leaderboard it's just a waste of time.

Respectfully, That's the most absurd thing I have heard in a while, you cant create a competitive environment/ranking system and then expect people not to take it seriously. Most humans are competitive by nature.

[YOJIMBO]

Origineel geplaatst door Sir Greedy:

Origineel geplaatst door YOJIMBO:

Leaderboard, since release was always only a visual addendum to the game and should never be taken seriously. Burning more than a minute to write few lines about Leaderboard it's just a waste of time.

Respectfully, That's the most absurd thing I have heard in a while, you cant create a competitive environment/ranking system and then expect people not to take it seriously. Most humans are competitive by nature.

Origineel geplaatst door Dmitriy:

As of now we decided to keep things as it is. I'm personally not very happy of having a broken feature at release. Bot most playtesters said it's more fun to have a cheated leaderboard than to not have it at all. Besides in game you only see a board with your friends, but not the global one.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/563560/discussions/2/135509823664434259/#c135513421442038991

PS: You really made me waste more than one minute on that, please don't =)

[Sir Greedy]

Origineel geplaatst door YOJIMBO:

Origineel geplaatst door Sir Greedy:

Respectfully, That's the most absurd thing I have heard in a while, you cant create a competitive environment/ranking system and then expect people not to take it seriously. Most humans are competitive by nature.

Origineel geplaatst door Dmitriy:

As of now we decided to keep things as it is. I'm personally not very happy of having a broken feature at release. Bot most playtesters said it's more fun to have a cheated leaderboard than to not have it at all. Besides in game you only see a board with your friends, but not the global one.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/563560/discussions/2/135509823664434259/#c135513421442038991

PS: You really made me waste more than one minute on that, please don't =)

What's your point? All this displays is that people are indeed competitive, like i was saying. Players would literally rather have a broken leader board, and salvage competition from it than to have none at all. You reinforced my argument.

PS: nobody is forcing you to engage in this discussion, if you don't want to be here then simply don't be here. I didn't make you do anything, clearly you think it is worth your time.