Fighter best for engagement?

[BigBadBootyBaby]

Do any of the other fighter type classes (pally, barb, monk) have good ways to keep engagement? Fighter has the defensive fighter stance that gives more targets engaged and the like. They seem like the tankiest tank for that reason. I don't recall seeing anything specific towards engagement on the others, so it seems to me that the fighter is indispensible to a good party. Am I missing something?

[Dorok]

If only one engagement works it's a big bug. The encyclopedia is very clear about engagement consequences, and the skills, items, spells, are very clear about increasing the number of engagement.

Moreover nowhere in the game I saw any mention about engagement protecting against flanking.

I heavily doubt he is right, and if he is, then it's just two more big bugs, and eventually only for some players/setup.

[ColorsFade]

Originally posted by Dorok:

Moreover nowhere in the game I saw any mention about engagement protecting against flanking.

It's understandable how you'd miss it; it is not entirely clear when examining all aspects of combat (at least it wasn't apparen tot me in PoE and took some investigation). There was a long thread about it in the PoE forums a while ago.

Bottom line, engagement does affect flanking.

A clue is something like the Cipher's "Phantom Foes" spell, which does the following:

-10 enemies needed to Flank for 20.0 seconds

Flanking, as it turns out, is not just about position, but also engagement. While you have fewer enemies than engagement slots and can keep them to one side of you (in about a 120 degree arc), you stay out of "Flanked" status, and thus don't take the penalty to Deflection and cannot be hit by Sneak Attack.

Once you engage more enemies than your engagement status allows AND those enemies are positioned such that at least two are on opposite arcs from you, then Flank gets set.

[View The Phenom]

Engagement is basically like D&D opportunity attacks. You're affected once you enter an opponent's zone of control, it's not about targetting enemies in order to trigger it; if this was the case, the entire point of the engagement system would be a failure and it would be impossible for fighters to actually hold the line like they're supposed to.

For example, if you run next to a character with multiple engagement slots available you will be caught in his zone of control and trigger an additional engagement slot even if he's targetting someone else. It's why enemies attempting to rush past your fighters at the start of combat will generally trigger disengagement attacks immediately.

The number of engagement slots you have determines how many enemies you can target for immediate disengagement attacks once they enter your zone and attempt to leave it.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by Farsha:

You sure? I'm pretty sure my Eder keeps knocking down several guys with guardian stance and overbearing guard, no one who has green line to him can get away from him ever.

In PoE 2 or in PoE 1? In PoE 2 it doesn't cause Prone anymore, does it? Further, it's a level 7 ability, so you don't benefit from it at lower levels. Finally, you can only pray that enemies engage your fighter instead of choosing easier targets. "To engage" vs "engaged".

[ColorsFade]

Originally posted by View The Phenom:

The number of engagement slots you have determines how many enemies you can target for immediate disengagement attacks once they enter your zone and attempt to leave it.

And that basically gets to the heart of the OP's question, which is how you do you "keep" engagement with enemies? There is no specific tool for that in Pillars of Eternity. Enemies don't see to care about disengagement. If your rogue sneaks up behind an enemy that the fighter already has engaged, and stabs him in the back, the enemy just pivots, turns around, and attacks your Rogue. There's no "taunt" ability on a Fighter class to draw the attention of the enemy away from your Rogue, and since the enemy isn't moving out of engagement range the disengagement attack never happens. So there's really not much of a penalty for the enemy to switch targets and turn on the Rogue/Cipher/Whatever.

The lack of the Taunt ability for the Fighter has been the one glaring omission from the game, IMO. You can work around it, certainly, but it seems weird not to have something like that.

As to the OP's original question: there's no one better at engagement and holding the line than a Fighter. There's gear, however, that can add to engagement. My personal choice for front-liners is Inquisitor (Paladin/Fighter). Then you sort of get the best of both worlds.

[Farsha]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

In PoE 2 or in PoE 1? In PoE 2 it doesn't cause Prone anymore, does it? Further, it's a level 7 ability, so you don't benefit from it at lower levels. Finally, you can only pray that enemies engage your fighter instead of choosing easier targets. "To engage" vs "engaged".

It does prone enyone who wants to dissengage and with overbearing guard it's almost 100% hit. And it triggers on all engagements fighter has. Once you have it you can control most fight really easily.

Lvling in Deadfire is fast lvl 7 is pretty early in the game, also basic stance with no prone works pretty well too and that is lvl 2 ability. Mile stone for Tank is lvl4 Vigorous defense actually, as from that point he can take 4 enemies and hold them cause they won't do much to him.

Well most fights you start from stealh and unstealth the tank and only reveal rest of the team once he's got the attention. Also in most cases if you run him at front he'll intercept and engage most enemies even if you can't do the stealh thing. Works even on POTD in most cases.

But really dissengagement attacks trigger on all engagements I think, not only on those you directly target. There won't be animation but they'll take dmg and be proned if you use the stance.

So for OP yes you need to use fighter if you want a real tank. No other class has +3 engagement from stance + 1 from passive. For some reason pure paladin has no engagement so with shield he has max 1, which makes him piss poor tank in most situations. Barb has +1 passive and can have shout to give him temporary +3 but it's temporary.

[ColorsFade]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

In PoE 2 it doesn't cause Prone anymore, does it?.

https://pillarsofeternity2.wiki.fextralife.com/Guardian+Stance

(Guardian Stance) - Enemies that disengage from the fighter are immediately attacked and proned, if successful.

I'd like to say I have verified this, but the way I run battles enemies never disengage Eder so the prone never happens. I use this stance quite a bit.

[Cutlass Jack]

Lets clarify a few things. First, you absolutely can engage multiple targets and get disengagement attacks against them. Engaging is one of the conditions that negates flanking, true, but its not the only thing engagement does.

Secondly, a big change from the first game, the default number of targets someone can engage is zero, not one. Meaning if you don't have something that gives you an engagement number (shield, talent, etc) you cant engage anyone.

I'm too lazy to make one myself but here's a screenshot of Eder demonstrating both those things. He has two targets engaged, one in front, one behind him. But only one of the three enemies has him engaged in turn. That being the one with the shield.

http://www.en.magicgameworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/6546D057-40D3-4E5B-97AC-5AE5CB167D0C.jpeg

I can confirm the knockdown from guardian stance does work, but its very rare an enemy will disengage.

[Farsha]

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

I can confirm the knockdown from guardian stance does work, but its very rare an enemy will disengage.

Thing is if you don't have it they'll dissengage. The AI script won't trie cause it knows you have it. So you do need it specially on POTD. Also the scipt recognises the treath of the egagement so making your tank too defensive will make em trie to dissengage more often same as in POE1.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by Farsha:

But really dissengagement attacks trigger on all engagements I think, not only on those you directly target. There won't be animation but they'll take dmg and be proned if you use the stance.

I've never claimed the opposite with regard to free disengagement attacks. There are the green/red arrows that show the engagement in both directions. If an enemy doesn't engage your fighter, there is no engagement to begin with.

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

Lets clarify a few things. First, you absolutely can engage multiple targets and get disengagement attacks against them.

To engage vs engaged. You can only engage multiple enemies, if you are engaged by them and have enough engagement slots.

[Farsha]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

To engage vs engaged. You can only engage multiple enemies, if you are engaged by them and have enough engagement slots.

How does that makes sense in deadfire since default engagement value in Deadfire is 0 not 1? You can engage enemies that don't engage you. They might target and attack you but they don't nesecerily have and engagement slot. Or they engage your neighbour.
You can engage guys that don't engage you.

You engage arrow is green. They engage it's red. If its mutual it's both green and red. You can see many just green ones from your tank in deadfire.

I know you know alot about POE, but you need to do some more tanking and engaging in Deadfire it seems.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by Farsha:

They might target and attack you but they don't nesecerily have and engagement slot.

Your fighter needs free engagement slots, or else you would not get any green arrows towards them.

Took me some time to reproduce it with nearby attackers that don't engage Eder in melee.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1411840688

They attack Eder ranged, and Eder doesn't benefit from anything, if they don't try to disengage. In this example screenshot not even against Flanked status.

I've not played the game like this before. It seems odd.

The popup help for "Engaged" in PoE 2 mentions that engagement starts with opponents coming nearby. How large is that area?

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

Originally posted by Farsha:

They might target and attack you but they don't nesecerily have and engagement slot.

Your fighter needs free engagement slots, or else you would not get any green arrows towards them.

Took me some time to reproduce it with nearby attackers that don't engage Eder in melee.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1411840688

They attack Eder ranged, and Eder doesn't benefit from anything, if they don't try to disengage. In this example screenshot not even against Flanked status.

I've not played the game like this before. It seems odd.

The popup help for "Engaged" in PoE 2 mentions that engagement starts with opponents coming nearby. How large is that area?

they have to be in mele range and your fighter has to have a target. If your fighter is sitting there with the ... next to his name I dont think he will engage anyone. But if your fighter has a target, an engagement slot available, and an enemy moves into his mele range, then he will automatically engage

[Farsha]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

They attack Eder ranged, and Eder doesn't benefit from anything, if they don't try to disengage. In this example screenshot not even against Flanked status.

Yep that is how it works. And that is the most important thing about fighter tank. They cannot move unless they want to dissenage. If you have guardian stance and overbearing guard they really won't want to even try.
It's been like this in POE too, with the difference that default engagement value there is 1, so they engaged back in most cases (once they switched to melee weapon) Now they can't as they have 0.
Figher tank is best tank as he controls 5+ enemies in most fights most the time.

[Farsha]

Originally posted by dixon sider:

they have to be in mele range and your fighter has to have a target. If your fighter is sitting there with the ... next to his name I dont think he will engage anyone. But if your fighter has a target, an engagement slot available, and an enemy moves into his mele range, then he will automatically engage

Yep that is true he needs to keep attacking 1 targert. or using abilites. If he's active anything that will come in his melee range will get engaged as long as he has enagements slots.
In most cases he can even stop wave of attackers pushing to your rear line if they come near him.