Importance of Initiative in Turn Based Mode

[joy.kafka]

There is a phenomenon everyone might have noticed. That is when an enemy was knocked down by our fighter, he stands up right away, leaving our team not a chance to hit him under the prone condition.

Why so? It's because "one round" has passed for him. I noticed that in the beginning of everyone's turn, all the effects would be reduced by one round. What does that mean?

Say, the turn orders for our companions are 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 (faster); the turn orders for the enemies are 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 (slower).

When No. 1 applies a one-round effect on 6-10, all other teammates can enjoy attacking the afflicted enemies for one time (in the same round), before their turns begin. When No. 1 applies a two-round effect on 6-10, our team can enjoy attacking the enemies for two times...

However, when our team mates are slower, say 6, 7, 8, 9, 10; and, the enemies are faster, say 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

When No. 6 applies a one -round effect on 1-5, none of our teammates can enjoy the benefit of attacking afflicted enemies. Their afflictions would be gone the moment their turns begin (in the following round). And our turns all come after theirs. When No. 6 applies a two-round effect on 1-5, our team can enjoy the benefits for once only...

Alright now we get it, all casters would better go first, but how about damage dealers? If they are slow, they would still kick the wall, undebuffed.

Then, how about the tank? If he is too slow, any one-round affliction on him would be utilised by all the enemies. If he is fast, probably none of the enemies can make use of their debuff at all.

Come to think of it, the most important factors of "initiative" are DEX and Armour... Whether to use a medium armour at the cost of 35% slower initiative, or to go faster at the price of 2-4 armour class?

Another point is that even if we try to increase the distance (time) of the actual engagement, the situation stays unaltered. It's not a continuous A-B-A-B-A-B. The delay of actual engagement doesn't change the fact that the slower ones are always slower, and would mostly miss one more round to make use of the debuffs on their foes, while at the same time suffer one more round of debuff on themselves.

[Dorok]

For sure free action is a bad idea. All free action should have a number that is the number of free actions still available in game. All decrease of one when a free action is used, and it's reset at next round.

For INT a system decreasing range when you increase it is a bit weird. INT should just influence something else like damages.

[Du-Vu]

@joy.kafka Uh, okay. If you think I'm disagreeing with your main post, I'm not.

[joy.kafka]

引用自 Du-Vu：

@joy.kafka Uh, okay. If you think I'm disagreeing with your main post, I'm not.

@Du-Vu: No, I don't disagree with you at all. The lengthy talk was all about while Obsidian's attempt to redesign TB mode is applaudable, the result is not. Perhaps you've got the feeling that I avoided responding directly to your finding about evasive attack. It was just because I've never played ranger yet.

[joy.kafka]

引用自 Dorok：

For INT a system decreasing range when you increase it is a bit weird. INT should just influence something else like damages.

Perhaps, either way is better than influence nothing.

[joy.kafka]

引用自 Dorok：

For INT a system decreasing range when you increase it is a bit weird. INT should just influence something else like damages.

In Character Sheet, we would see for example

INT 18: 40% Area of effect 40% Duration

In turn based mode, 20% duration boost at INT 14 adds one more turn, then for a long while the INT increase would NOT actually increase the duration in terms of round, until INT reaches 22 or 26. Nothing from INT 14 to INT 21!

So I was saying the above could be changed to:

INT 18: 60% Area of effect 20% Duration (+1 Round)

Now as the INT increases, we let only the Area of effect increase at twice the speed, while keeping duration unaltered.

After that it would get complicate, take 15 second spells for example, they are reduced to 2 rounds without INT boost, 3 rounds with 20% INT boost, 4 rounds with 60% INT boost. So here we go:

INT 21: 90% Area of effect 20% Duration
INT 22: 60% Area of effect 60% Duration (+2 rounds)


Complicate because for 10-second and 20-second spells, they get an additional round at 20% and then at 80%.

That leads back to my other posts about speed. For me I'd think it's easier to just give up any "second-based" calculation in "turn" based system, and use round as the basic unit for calculation. Or, make the conversion as 5 seconds equal one round, rather than 6 seconds to one round. Then it's also easier to understand when the INT boost would gain us one more round without checking the real time mode spreadsheet outside the game.

[joy.kafka]

引用自 Dorok：

INT should just influence something else like damages.

I agree with it too.

In POE 2, we've got the muscular strength (physical strength) or here the attribute Might actually also includes brain power (mental strength).

Dexterity is how well one can use his muscular strength so that he can complete the task with better performance, such as a deadlier attack, a nimbler escape...

In real time mode, the damage output for melee classes is Base * MIGHT * DEX. If we agree Intellect could be interpreted as how well one can make use of his brain power and deliver higher mental performance (based on MIGHT in POE 2), the damage output from spells should be BASE * MIGHT * INT, to be equal to DEX.

However, in RT mode, this has been done by DEX since it has already reduced the casting time etc and allows for more spells (also BASE * MIGHT * DEX). I guess that's why INT is not used to multiply the effect again.

But it's a different story in TB mode, since the action speed for both melee and spell attacks is neglected, and everyone can attack once per round. In this scenario, I think your idea to use INT as a means to increase the spell damage output is just right! We can do the same with DEX, (separately).

[joy.kafka]

@Dorok: In addition to DEX, INT also contributes to spell DOT damage by increased Duration and to have more targets (more damage) by increased Area of Effect. If you reshape the spell to a smaller circle from the INT-increased Area, you get increased Power Level, which also increase the damage output (more projectiles for example). So, yes, INT does boost spell damage and effect.

[Dorok]

It seems they wanted avoid a complex initiative system which would allow a more precise reflect of time. The problem of such system is the initiative list, which is a problem when there's too many units, and when you want show actions in the list. Moreover it's possible that it looks too complicated to some players, not sure.

[joy.kafka]

引用自 Dorok：

It seems they wanted avoid a complex initiative system which would allow a more precise reflect of time. The problem of such system is the initiative list, which is a problem when there's too many units, and when you want show actions in the list. Moreover it's possible that it looks too complicated to some players, not sure.

Indeed. in Pathfinder Kingmaker Initiative is only one factor. It's only about who's got the initiative. And no one else can launch the attack before the one that has got the initiative.

Here, it's a bit problematic because you can deal the damage before the combat starts. Or like you said, a lot of free actions in the first round.

As explained in the original post how important the initiative is in TB mode, who wins the initiative wins the game. The devs want to make use of all these attack speed, recovering time, casting time, armour penalty into account since they are no more important elsewhere in TB mode.

It's weird. Chants still tic by one 10th of a second. Spell duration increase by five 6th of a round. Behind the scenes, everything still work in real time. Oh the beckoner, what shall I do with the 6 summoned skeletons. It's so tedious to move their arms and their legs one by one.

[joy.kafka]

Well, probably I can see it now. Since linger is 3 seconds long and would be round to 0, for which you need to get INT up to 30 to gain one round of linger (6 seconds). So, here INT is no use to Chanters like DEX to melee. Perhaps that's why Chanters still tic as in real time now.

*Sigh* Probably better I take a break and do something else, if I can't build my own characters nicely in turn based mode at all.

[psychotron666]

引用自 joy.kafka：

Well, probably I can see it now. Since linger is 3 seconds long and would be round to 0, for which you need to get INT up to 30 to gain one round of linger (6 seconds). So, here INT is no use to Chanters like DEX to melee. Perhaps that's why Chanters still tic as in real time now.

*Sigh* Probably better I take a break and do something else, if I can't build my own characters nicely in turn based mode at all.

But that's not the case. Linger is 1 round in turn based mode, not rounded down to 0. A troubadour chanter is actually savage, because with their modal they can have 2 chants active every turn

[joy.kafka]

引用自 psychotron666：

引用自 joy.kafka：

Well, probably I can see it now. Since linger is 3 seconds long and would be round to 0, for which you need to get INT up to 30 to gain one round of linger (6 seconds). So, here INT is no use to Chanters like DEX to melee. Perhaps that's why Chanters still tic as in real time now.

*Sigh* Probably better I take a break and do something else, if I can't build my own characters nicely in turn based mode at all.

But that's not the case. Linger is 1 round in turn based mode, not rounded down to 0. A troubadour chanter is actually savage, because with their modal they can have 2 chants active every turn

I heard it's only troubadour has one round linger. The rest has zero. I might be wrong.

In my play through, I thought it was one round too but then there is a small pop up time chart showing chanting, linger and a gap between phrases.

No matter zero or one round, it can hardly get another round in TB mode, and INT become useless for the purpose of prolonged duration. This with the above mentioned time chart lead me to wonder perhaps the chating still uses real time mode.

Bear with me that I have no intention to test it for the time being. I didn't check closely either but sometimes some of my chars have the effect of one song, while other have the effect of two songs...

[psychotron666]

引用自 joy.kafka：

引用自 psychotron666：

But that's not the case. Linger is 1 round in turn based mode, not rounded down to 0. A troubadour chanter is actually savage, because with their modal they can have 2 chants active every turn

I heard it's only troubadour has one round linger. The rest has zero. I might be wrong.

In my play through, I thought it was one round too but then there is a small pop up time chart showing chanting, linger and a gap between phrases.

No matter zero or one round, it can hardly get another round in TB mode, and INT become useless for the purpose of prolonged duration. This with the above mentioned time chart lead me to wonder perhaps the chating still uses real time mode.

Bear with me that I have no intention to test it for the time being. I didn't check closely either but sometimes some of my chars have the effect of one song, while other have the effect of two songs...

The troubadour modal makes the linger into 2 rounds. With it turned off, and with other Chanters, it's 1 round. I've tested it myself.

The time chart means absolutely nothing in turn based mode, just ignore it and watch the effects of the chants itself.

[Foolswalkin]

Sorry to necro but I'm trying to understand this and am at very early stages of the game.

The claim here is that in turn based:

- All non-Troubadour chanters get 1 round of active chant effect and 1 round linger, so that you can juggle 2 active chants?
- Brisk Recitation does NOT turn off linger, so the above still applies to the Troubadour while they get double phrase acquisition speed?
- Troubadours without Brisk Recitation on can juggle 3 chants?

I was trying to test this for myself, using Brisk Recitation with Come Come Soft Winds and At The Sight of Their Comrades, but I wasn't noticing the damage proc hitting on Winds at the start of my Chanter's turn. However, I'm quite new to the turn-based gameplay (played PoE 1 prior to the turn based option) and so I'm very willing to believe I just missed it.