Curious about the AI

[Mojo The Rising]

I bought this and then got a refund after playing a few games against the AI. I know that people are going to say this is a mp game so please don't respond with that.

I agree and I'm amazed and impressed that you even attempted to create an AI for a game like this. I might get it again at some point to still play against the AI, but I'm wondering if you can explain at all any of the logic that is put into the AI in this game. It didn't seem that there was any rhyme or reason to the cards that an AI ghost would choose, but I'm sure there is some that you programmed into it. Also what kind of logic do AI psychics follow?

Thanks!

[mrjvoorhees]

I'd like to know more about this too, especially because Story Mode gets ridiculously difficult after a few levels because of the inscrutability of the AI decisions.

I guess it's to be expected on such a highly subjective game like this. I assume that every card has a probability score for each suspect/weapon/place, based on how obviously tied to them it is (some cards are more clearly linked to elements than others after all, e.g. outdoors/indoors, shapes, colours, common objects). However, for the truly abstract ones, it's anyone's guess as to how the AI has been programmed to interpret it!

Good post, though: you've made me realise what an achievement it is even to have tried programming AI into a game like this! They could have easily made it co-op/online only, so fair play to them for that.

[Rabid Urko]

I would say "educated guess" :P, the ai looks for shapes ?

[ronstadt]

yes it is shape analogy process, or whatever we should call this.

[ronstadt]

Humans are more interesting because they can construct mental models : narratives, situation, semantic similarities and so on. Machine can do that at some point, but not AI in that game apparently. besides semantic associations can be culturally-dependant.

however I could see that sometime the game association profession with some kind of "image". Like Physicians and poison for example.

[Grnsmilie]

I think what the game needs is some kind of feedback so you can tell WHAT the AI is thinking. There have been times I've included a card that makes perfectly logical sense to me (say, something with a door when I'm trying to have them guess the box as a murder weapon, because they both open), but had it choose something else entirely instead. It would be nice if they could fake some AI chatter in the chat box so it felt less like the game was picking random ones when it got it wrong, and you could understand its reasoning better. Not sure how much of a hassle that would be to program in, though, because that's a LOT of potential combinations they might have to take into account.

[Rabid Urko]

Originally posted by IAm3osh:

I think what the game needs is some kind of feedback so you can tell WHAT the AI is thinking. There have been times I've included a card that makes perfectly logical sense to me (say, something with a door when I'm trying to have them guess the box as a murder weapon, because they both open), but had it choose something else entirely instead. It would be nice if they could fake some AI chatter in the chat box so it felt less like the game was picking random ones when it got it wrong, and you could understand its reasoning better. Not sure how much of a hassle that would be to program in, though, because that's a LOT of potential combinations they might have to take into account.

I think the same goes for human players too, if the vision cards to choose from dont really fit the card alot its going to be tough. Fair bit of luck in this game sometimes i have found.

Thats part of the charm though of the game imo, different people will find different aspects to the visions. Yes i have been like "wtf" with some choices players have made in some games but its still fun, i have played ghost and sometimes there have been NO visions that remotely (rare) give an idea to the card for me to choose to give the players.

[Rabid Urko]

After playing quite a bit against AI , when its playing a ghost the AI "looks" at the vision cards far more than just shapes.
Its very good sometimes at giving the clues.

Psychic AI is very good too.

[Ordon Draconis]

The last thing that the developer should do is explain the AI reasoning process. The whole point of this game - physical or digital - human or AI - is to DEDUCE the algorithm that the other side uses.

There are no "right answers" to this game. There is only - "How does the other side think?" - and then play to that.

When I'm a ghost, I pay attention to every player's picks, so I can figure out how they think, and tailor my clue giving to them.

Therefore, the challenge of playing the AI, is to FIGURE OUT how it thinks. Unless they used a random number generator, in which case there's no point. If the developer gives you a flow chart, then there is no point in ever playing it again.

Real replayability would come if they added a "weight factor" to the algorithm. ie, THIS game the AI is heavy into SHAPES. The sooner you figure that out, the better you do THIS game. NEXT game the AI is more into COLORS, or ACTION, etc. It could be the same algorithm, just put a multiplier by each Shape score, color score, etc. Then at the start, roll some random numbers. This game is Shape x3, color x 1, etc.

And when I'm a ghost, I never listen to the players talk. The whole point of the game is learning to communicate via abstract art. Its cheap and easy to cut that task in half. In fact, the next step down the slippery slope, beyond listening to the players talk, is the players knowing that the ghost is listening, and telling him what to play! "I don't know who's over-hearing this, but if I happen to get a green card next, I'll guess the doctor...."

I had an IRL game where one player was a mathemetician PHD and another was non-gamer housewife. All game the mathemetician kept "alpha gaming" everyone at the table, saying THIS is the correct answer, nobody else knows how to play, this game is trivial and stupid. He... certainly showed that he was used to procedure and order.

I had to get the housewife to guess poison. I had realized throughout the game that her first guess was always "story based." She always said, "it looks like that object is about to..." So, I gave her the spectre of death holding out a red apple. She yelled, "its poisonous!" The mathemetician basically called her an idiot. "There's no bottle, there's no liquids. The color is wrong." Fed up with him running the game all night, she guessed poison anyway. Every player voted that she was wrong. She was right. Good for her.

I had to keep my mouth shut until the end of the game. But I said, "YOU were getting mathematically precise clues. SHE was getting stories and alegories, that guy was getting colors. This game was about communication. So everyone plays differently. Nobody plays "wrong."

"You horse's a$$," I added mentally.

[Rabid Urko]

Yes but for the AI there MUST be a general formula, noones asking if cards are matched together within it.

Most of what you write about is for online play and i agree, the game is so fun because EVERYONE will see something in the pics that others dont and vice versa.

IE:- You could have a ghost that sees basic things within a vision and another who sees small details to match to the physics cards, if everyone saw the same within the cards all the time, the game would get boring fast.

I disagree with not listening to the psychic chat as a ghost though, the ultimate aim of the game is to complete to the end and communicating in any way possible is a key part.

[Ordon Draconis]

My post was actually about the AI, just using people as the example. You wouldn't ask the ghost before a session what his algorithm is for selecting cards. It would ruin the game. The same for a developer about the AI.

And it would ruin the game (for me) because my ultimate aim is NOT to simply reach the end. But rather to reach the end in a creative fashion - ie communication via surreal artwork and pattern discovery rather than simply talking back and forth which sidesteps the game design and makes the task trivial.

[Twist of Kain]

Ok, gotta chime in here. As someone that put the game down due to "A man with an amulet", waited for updates to fix the AI (because the AI can barely be called that), and picked it back up today, bought the expansion to see if that would balance it out more, and still has not gotten through the level... I think that some insight into how the AI thinks is very much warranted at this point. There are very obvious correlations that humans put together when playing the game that the AI seems to be just plain oblivious to. If the AI is simulating a human it's doing a crap job at it. That being said, though I understand the argument that part of the game is deducing the algorithm the other side uses, that's been done. I deduce it to be a more random than sensible AI. Therefore, I also would like some guidelines as to how it is making it's decisions (and preferably an explanation of how in the heck the algorithm is supposed to be simulating a human player, because I sure as heck don't see it.) - Other than that, the game is a great crossover for human play on PC. No complaints there, but what's the point of a "story mode" if you can't get through the story?

[Miltiplayer]

Originally posted by Ordon Draconis:

The last thing that the developer should do is explain the AI reasoning process. The whole point of this game - physical or digital - human or AI - is to DEDUCE the algorithm that the other side uses.

There are no "right answers" to this game. There is only - "How does the other side think?" - and then play to that.

When I'm a ghost, I pay attention to every player's picks, so I can figure out how they think, and tailor my clue giving to them.

Therefore, the challenge of playing the AI, is to FIGURE OUT how it thinks. Unless they used a random number generator, in which case there's no point. If the developer gives you a flow chart, then there is no point in ever playing it again.

Real replayability would come if they added a "weight factor" to the algorithm. ie, THIS game the AI is heavy into SHAPES. The sooner you figure that out, the better you do THIS game. NEXT game the AI is more into COLORS, or ACTION, etc. It could be the same algorithm, just put a multiplier by each Shape score, color score, etc. Then at the start, roll some random numbers. This game is Shape x3, color x 1, etc.

And when I'm a ghost, I never listen to the players talk. The whole point of the game is learning to communicate via abstract art. Its cheap and easy to cut that task in half. In fact, the next step down the slippery slope, beyond listening to the players talk, is the players knowing that the ghost is listening, and telling him what to play! "I don't know who's over-hearing this, but if I happen to get a green card next, I'll guess the doctor...."

I had an IRL game where one player was a mathemetician PHD and another was non-gamer housewife. All game the mathemetician kept "alpha gaming" everyone at the table, saying THIS is the correct answer, nobody else knows how to play, this game is trivial and stupid. He... certainly showed that he was used to procedure and order.

I had to get the housewife to guess poison. I had realized throughout the game that her first guess was always "story based." She always said, "it looks like that object is about to..." So, I gave her the spectre of death holding out a red apple. She yelled, "its poisonous!" The mathemetician basically called her an idiot. "There's no bottle, there's no liquids. The color is wrong." Fed up with him running the game all night, she guessed poison anyway. Every player voted that she was wrong. She was right. Good for her.

I had to keep my mouth shut until the end of the game. But I said, "YOU were getting mathematically precise clues. SHE was getting stories and alegories, that guy was getting colors. This game was about communication. So everyone plays differently. Nobody plays "wrong."

"You horse's a$$," I added mentally.

That's a nice way to think. I'm new to the game and I was pondering about the AI. I'm in story mode... stuck of course... and I was thinking also in the lines of "how does the AI even think?' Problem. More accurately stated: I get them to the final guessing stages, but I seem to be unable to get them to pick the (prescripted) end result.

I think that the mathematician is indeed wrong if he tells you, you can only play this game by communicating in this or that way. That's indeed limiting the game while it has more potential.

But I think communicating with each psychic on his or her way (like giving the mathematician precise clues and the housewife stories and alegorie) is actually not the way the game is ment to be played (although you may play the game however you like of course). I think it's the psychics job to figure out how the ghost is communicating and the ghost has to be as consequential as possible with the resources given, so the others can figure it out how he's communicating. If the ghosts communicates with every psychic on a different way, I think you're setting yourself up for losing the game. If you communicated with each psychic in a different way, only one psychic will get the correct interpretation of the final vision. The other psychics will be more likely to draw different conclusions based on the same final vision, increasing you're odds that the final vision leads the majority to a wrong answer.

I indeed think there are two gamemodes, but people should be noted in advance how you play: one is in which psychics don't communicate with the ghost, and one game mode (the easier one??? is that the ghost indeed hears how the psychics decide to interpret the visions and can adapt) .

If course you can have a fun time playing the way you want! But I think we should be open about our expectations if we play with strangers. It's not nice if you're in a competitive mood and really focussed on winning the game, to get stuck with someone who plays the ghost to communicate with every suspect on a different level and silently having to count down to the moment of the final vision, where you have a high likelihood of not getting the right interpretation. And likewise it's not nice to (after a hard day's work) have to figure out how the ghost is communicating, and just want the ghost to send some visions that are easy to work with for you... you may not win the game eventually, but who cares if all you're looking was a nice experience.

Suddenly also realizing the irony of this. To end up with a nice gaming experience with this communication based game, you need to communicate clearly about what you're expecting to get out of the game. So communicate clearly before and in the game.

[ZenMonkey]

I think the game is designed so that almost every card could be used with every person, place, weapon. The AI seems to be working fine for me.

[sunscreemer]

I'm thinking they assigned word association tags to the cards and suspects etc, but obviously ai will be limited as it doesn't have our weird human brains that see things only we might see