( * * Spoiler * * ) Joyce, the real victim

[Prinegon]

"But mom... the whole point of lowerin expectiations is so you won't be disappionted in me ever again." - Chloe, 2010

In this thread I wanted to talk about, how abusive and unfair Chloes behaviour is towards her mother. Whenever I saw people play the game or I read in the forums, I saw people bringing up excuses for Chloe and complaining, how wrong the behaviour of Joyce is, how she only makes things worse in forcefully inserting David into Chloes life. And I get it. The game is good in making you take Chloes point of view, because it makes you feel the struggle Chloe has. And in David being the guy he is, it is easy to hate him, to hate the situation he is bringing Chloe in an,d to hat the perspective he is offering. While I played the game, I happily did it myself.

That's why I wanted to give a different perspective on what is going on here, so that there is a little bit of understanding for Joyce's situation.

We know, for a child, let alone a teenager loosing a parent violently is a thraumatic experience. But so it is for loosing a partner. Chloe was stroken hard by the loss, she has not coped with it at all and we know, she will not do so the next 3 years as well. But not only Chloe was suffering, Joyce was suffering as well. We know, that she was reading books on how to get happiness back into her life. We also know, Chloe was surprised for her mum to make her bed again, meaning, she didn't have the energy to care until recently. Not only Chloe, but Joyce as well were in a deep depression over the loss of William.

But while Chloe used her depression as reason to let things slide, Joyce had not the luxury. She had to take care of a child as well as to earn money. We know, she sent Chloe into therapy. Chloe writes it in her journal:

If I had a nickel bag for every jerkoff guidance counselor or therapist who tried to get me to write♥♥♥♥♥♥about Dad over the last couple years, I would never have to buy weed from Frank again.

We can assume, that those therapists didn't come for free, and we also know for a fact, that her scolarship didn't cover everything for her to be able to visit blackwell. So Joyce was forced to work her♥♥♥♥♥of in the diner to pay the bills. We also know, that even with all her effort, she is thinking about selling her old wedding ring. And though it seems, she wants to "tidy up" her life with getting rid of things that remind her of William, the wedding ring was probably not the first thing she thought of to go for sale.
In the meantime she has a teenage daughter, to whome she lost connection alltogether. Raising a teenager is hard at best, raising her alone after such a thraumatic experience has to be impossible.
Besides her effords her daughter doesn't seem to get better, but the contrairy. One could argue, that the scolarship was not, what Chloe needed right now. She would have needed her mom at her side and in Chloes struggle to leave her it is quite clear, that she feels a bond to her mom, she would not want to loose. On the other hand it is hard to ignore a chance of a scolarship. School doesn't wait for one to get better, it was eigher take this opportunity now or never. So for a parent it is understandable, that giving her daughter education was her priority, not realizing it also means leaving her daughter hanging in emotional support (which she probably wouldn't have been able to give anyways due to her own depression).

In this situation the impossible seems to happen to Joyce: She finds a new partner, someone who is willing to support her. She is loosing on all fronts: The 2 years alone with her daughter has resulted in her not listening to her anymore and developing more and more behavioural issues. The work must have burned her out quite a bit, She herself is an emotional wrack and the financialy situation is dire. Of course she is desperately trying to hang onto David. And though David and Chloe don't get along, Choe seems to get along with nobody anymore. Joyce knows, something has to change. She knows, she is not able to reach Chloe anymore. She tells it Chloe at the parking lot: "She is on a loss and David is the only answer she has (left)".

A saw the critizism a lot, that Joyce should not allow her lover to try and take over the responsibility Chloes dad had. I also saw the criticism, that Joyce decided to let David move in anyways, and Chloes suspension/expulsion is only an excuse to bring it up the table. I don't find it to be true. Yes, David should not try to supplement Chloes dad, but from the stand of view Joyce has on the situation, his support may be the only chance for her to tip the balance between Chloe and Joyce back to her favour and to reach her daughter again, cause whatever she tried the last 2 years didn't work and she would be out of ideas. For her somehow becoming a family again it the mirracle she is waiting to happen.

[Edu, o Cortes]

Something that certainly was a major factor to Chloe's rebel style was that, with William's death, Joyce had to sustain the house and pay all the bills by herself - including her daughter education as you have highlighted -, meaning she spent the whole day working at the dinner while Chloe spent most of it totaly alone, with absolute zero company (given Max moved to Seattle, and she didn't have other friends). I feel sorry for both Joyce and Chloe

[Ramza Paradise]

I just want her to take that damn smock off, do you really need it on 24/7?

[Shinzou]

Chloe even knows she treats her mother badly, she says so quite often either in thoughts, or directly to her mother, depending on your dialogue choices. In fact one of the minor choices early on is to show support to Joyce or rebuff her again. What Chloe didn't realize in her self-absorbed mind was how far she had pushed Joyce to the breaking point. Chloe KNOWS she should care, but she simply can't bring herself to do so. That is a clear sign of how deep Chloe still is in her own depression. After all, Joyce finally found David (and i am sure she genuinely is happy for him), while Chloe had nobody. Yet.

Chloe only sees the short term, and in the short term everybody is against her or our to get her. Even Rachel eggs her on with making David the enemy. So rebel she shall remain. It is easy to see why David considers Rachel a bad influence on Chloe. There had been signs of Chloe owning up to her mistakes (again depending on dialogue choices, how much so), but with a new ally in Rachel, that may have been nipped in the bud for the time being.

[talemore]

A child only see the short term rewards, faking through a therapy section because it's not Chloe who need therapy. It's actually Joyce who need therapy and she sends Chloe instead. Who is actually taking the responsibility or shoveling stuff under the carpet or ask David to dealt with her problems and he's not good at it.

[Prinegon]

Originally posted by talemore:

A child only see the short term rewards, faking through a therapy section because it's not Chloe who need therapy. It's actually Joyce who need therapy and she sends Chloe instead. Who is actually taking the responsibility or shoveling stuff under the carpet or ask David to dealt with her problems and he's not good at it.

There are a few things I disagree on.
- I don't think, that Chloe is a child. She was not 8 or 9, as it happened, but 14. At that age - I admit - your mental capacities are not fully developed. But you already understand the concept of the need of others. Chloe was old enough to realize, that not only she is suffering, but her mother is as well. Chloe was old enough, that she could have feltt guilt in making things harder for Joyce.
- Chloe for sure needed therapy and would need therapy still. This doesn'T mean Joyce would not also need therapy as well.
- Joyce uses David as a last straw. You can clearly see, that she would not know what else to do anymore. So who is to blaime her?

-----------------------

Prediction: We know, that Chloe and Rachel want to leave town, but we also know for a fact that they won't for the next years. We also know, that Chloe will still live with Joyce, although she claims, she won't as long as David stays. So something has to happen that prohibits those plans of moving with Rachel. And since we know, that Rachel still tries to leave Arcadia Bay, no matter what, it may well be, that something happens to Chloe that changes everything.

I won't be surprised, if the last episode ends with an unsuccessful suicide atempt of Joyce. We can see over and over again, that Joyce desperately needs to be with Chloe, may it be to her text messages, or in cutscenes. We know, that she is suffering from depression. And we know, although she feels, David could be good for her, that she feels burdened, since David and Chloe won't come along together.

I am sure, a failed suicide atempt could bring Chloe to surpress her anger for David and promise to stay, while Rachel could feel betrayed by Chloe and has a reason to cheat on Chloe and search for alternatives to leave Arcadia Bay.

[Edu, o Cortes]

Originally posted by Prinegon:

Originally posted by talemore:

A child only see the short term rewards, faking through a therapy section because it's not Chloe who need therapy. It's actually Joyce who need therapy and she sends Chloe instead. Who is actually taking the responsibility or shoveling stuff under the carpet or ask David to dealt with her problems and he's not good at it.

There are a few things I disagree on.
- I don't think, that Chloe is a child. She was not 8 or 9, as it happened, but 14. At that age - I admit - your mental capacities are not fully developed. But you already understand the concept of the need of others. Chloe was old enough to realize, that not only she is suffering, but her mother is as well. Chloe was old enough, that she could have feltt guilt in making things harder for Joyce.
- Chloe for sure needed therapy and would need therapy still. This doesn'T mean Joyce would not also need therapy as well.
- Joyce uses David as a last straw. You can clearly see, that she would not know what else to do anymore. So who is to blaime her?

-----------------------

Prediction: We know, that Chloe and Rachel want to leave town, but we also know for a fact that they won't for the next years. We also know, that Chloe will still live with Joyce, although she claims, she won't as long as David stays. So something has to happen that prohibits those plans of moving with Rachel. And since we know, that Rachel still tries to leave Arcadia Bay, no matter what, it may well be, that something happens to Chloe that changes everything.

I won't be surprised, if the last episode ends with an unsuccessful suicide atempt of Joyce. We can see over and over again, that Joyce desperately needs to be with Chloe, may it be to her text messages, or in cutscenes. We know, that she is suffering from depression. And we know, although she feels, David could be good for her, that she feels burdened, since David and Chloe won't come along together.

I am sure, a failed suicide atempt could bring Chloe to surpress her anger for David and promise to stay, while Rachel could feel betrayed by Chloe and has a reason to cheat on Chloe and search for alternatives to leave Arcadia Bay.

Sorry, first because of the long post, and second, I comprehend what you put but I don't agree. Go through depression is one of the worst things that could occur to anyone - if it happens to a kid or teenager can be devastating.
To be clear, I'm not critizing you or any of the sort. It's easy to say "You want things to change, so why don't you do it?" to a person who is depressed (independent of age or gender), but that's exactly the wrong way of doing; of course she wants to change things for the better, but if a person has depression, she feels hopeless, doesn't have the will to do even the simpliest things, she hasn't any desire or pleasure. Even if Joyce really does attempt to comit suicides and Chloe decides to stay and co-operate, the overall situation doesn't improve and thus depression symptons return. I think is more plausible a suicide attempt from Chloe than Joyce's.
Moving away from the theme, something I really like about LiS is the way they approach real life problems (drug use, depression , pregnancy, mental pathology etc.). Look at this research made in 2016: "there’s been a significant increase in the percentage of young people aged 12-20 who have reported having a major depressive episode (MDE). A study of national trends in depression among adolescents and young adults published in the journal Pediatrics on November 14 found that the prevalence of teens who reported an MDE in the previous 12 months jumped from 8.7% in 2005 to 11.5% in 2014. That’s a 37 percent increase... Despite the rise in teen depression, the study, which analyzed data from the National Surveys on Drug Use and Health, reported that there hasn’t a corresponding increase in mental health treatment for adolescents and young adults . Researchers said this is an indication that there is a growing number of young people who are under-treated or not treated at all for their symptoms ... According to the Department of Health and Human Services, more than three million adolescents aged 12-17 reported at least one major depressive episode in the past year, and more than two million reported severe depression that impeded their daily functioning ... (In the U.S., 19.5% of girls experienced at least one major depressive episode in the last year, while only 5.8% of boys did.)" The research also says that "anxiety" is one of the major causes of depression at early ages (12-17). In this other one, posted August of this year, "Suicide Rate for Teen Girls Hits 40-Year High" from 1975-2015. "It’s unlikely there’s any one factor to explain this increase, Simon said, but possible risk factors include a history of substance abuse, mental health stigma, and lingering economic stress from the Great Recession in the 2000s." I can confirm the last factor, here in Brazil per example, the suicide rates have increased during this economic retrocess.

Link to both researchs:

http://time.com/4572593/increase-depression-teens-teenage-mental-health/
http://time.com/4887282/teen-suicide-rate-cdc/

[Prinegon]

Originally posted by Eduardo Cortes:

Sorry, first because of the long post,

Don't be. If I didn't want to discuss, I would not have had so manny and so lengthily postings myself.

Originally posted by Eduardo Cortes:

I comprehend what you put but I don't agree. Go through depression is one of the worst things that could occur to anyone - if it happens to a kid or teenager can be devastating.
To be clear, I'm not critizing you or any of the sort. It's easy to say "You want things to change, so why don't you do it?" to a person who is depressed (independent of age or gender), but that's exactly the wrong way of doing; of course she wants to change things for the better, but if a person has depression, she feels hopeless, doesn't have the will to do even the simpliest things, she hasn't any desire or pleasure. Even if Joyce really does attempt to comit suicides and Chloe decides to stay and co-operate, the overall situation doesn't improve and thus depression symptons return. I think is more plausible a suicide attempt from Chloe than Joyce's.

I didn't say, Joyce was in the right or Chloe was in the wrong. Both deal with depression and both deal poorly with it.
But while the game makes it easy to take Chloe's side and see her as a victim of circumstances (which she clearly is), it is much harder to understand, what Joyce is going through. It is easy to say, that Joyce is unfair to Chloe, that she is in the wrong to turn to David and that she should have known, that bringing a new partner into the situation has to end in dissaster. I just want to give awareness to that Joyce also is victim of the circumstances and is not to blaime to see no other alternative than to seek Davids help.

We can clearly see, that at the beginning of this game Chloe has suicidal tendencies. Though she doesn't attempt suicide yet, she clearly takes a risk of being accidentially killed. Seeking this thrill may have the same reasons, that cutting has for some people, making her feel something else but emptyness. But she also may be one step further, seeking the death but be too afraid to follow through, therefore seeking the risk in the hope of someday be to slow.
But I don't know that in this stage of the game we are in danger of her to attempt suicide anymore. She lived through being left alone by Rachel and finding her dads car without harming herself, and at that point she probably was emotionally at her lowest during this prequels (including Episode 3 to come). Chloe said, Rachel saved her life, she was her angel, and after the end of Episode 2 she will be fine.

And although since Chloe is a teen and she would be at higher risk for suicide than her mother, doesn't mean, that her mom is off the hook. As my former flatmate proved me, adults can commit suicide. And due to the story structure and the signals we get from Joyce this development could make sence. I know, Joyce seems to be to firm of a personality to hurt herself, but as you might know yourself, this doesn't mean anything. In many cases people around the victim didn't realize the depression until it was too late.

[Edu, o Cortes]

Originally posted by Prinegon:

Originally posted by Eduardo Cortes:

Sorry, first because of the long post,

Don't be. If I didn't want to discuss, I would not have had so manny and so lengthily postings myself.

Originally posted by Eduardo Cortes:

I comprehend what you put but I don't agree. Go through depression is one of the worst things that could occur to anyone - if it happens to a kid or teenager can be devastating.
To be clear, I'm not critizing you or any of the sort. It's easy to say "You want things to change, so why don't you do it?" to a person who is depressed (independent of age or gender), but that's exactly the wrong way of doing; of course she wants to change things for the better, but if a person has depression, she feels hopeless, doesn't have the will to do even the simpliest things, she hasn't any desire or pleasure. Even if Joyce really does attempt to comit suicides and Chloe decides to stay and co-operate, the overall situation doesn't improve and thus depression symptons return. I think is more plausible a suicide attempt from Chloe than Joyce's.

I didn't say, Joyce was in the right or Chloe was in the wrong. Both deal with depression and both deal poorly with it.
But while the game makes it easy to take Chloe's side and see her as a victim of circumstances (which she clearly is), it is much harder to understand, what Joyce is going through. It is easy to say, that Joyce is unfair to Chloe, that she is in the wrong to turn to David and that she should have known, that bringing a new partner into the situation has to end in dissaster. I just want to give awareness to that Joyce also is victim of the circumstances and is not to blaime to see no other alternative than to seek Davids help.

We can clearly see, that at the beginning of this game Chloe has suicidal tendencies. Though she doesn't attempt suicide yet, she clearly takes a risk of being accidentially killed. Seeking this thrill may have the same reasons, that cutting has for some people, making her feel something else but emptyness. But she also may be one step further, seeking the death but be too afraid to follow through, therefore seeking the risk in the hope of someday be to slow.
But I don't know that in this stage of the game we are in danger of her to attempt suicide anymore. She lived through being left alone by Rachel and finding her dads car without harming herself, and at that point she probably was emotionally at her lowest during this prequels (including Episode 3 to come). Chloe said, Rachel saved her life, she was her angel, and after the end of Episode 2 she will be fine.

And although since Chloe is a teen and she would be at higher risk for suicide than her mother, doesn't mean, that her mom is off the hook. As my former flatmate proved me, adults can commit suicide. And due to the story structure and the signals we get from Joyce this development could make sence. I know, Joyce seems to be to firm of a personality to hurt herself, but as you might know yourself, this doesn't mean anything. In many cases people around the victim didn't realize the depression until it was too late.

I understand you. And you're right, it is very commom for the family realize a member has depression. Chloe received psychological treatment so the terapists should have noticed some symptoms or she reached her lowest some time after. And yes, they dealt depression the wrong way, unfortunately it's what tends to happen. It would be interesting to see Joyce's perspective during "LiS: BFT" and after the end of LiS

[Shinzou]

Chloe won't try to do anything rash. She just is on the way to find happiness again, so that would be counter-intuitive. I also don't think we'll see Rachel already betray her (at least not with other people), i think that started much later, once it may have become clear (or at least Rachel imagines) that Chloe may not be able to leave with her.

Likewise, i also don't think Joyce will attempt anything. She also has found a new rock in her life and it clearly does her good, even if it puts an additional strain on her relationship with Chloe.

The game makes an effort to paint Elliot in some shady lights, without putting too much of the spotlight on him. Maybe he will try something, like attack Joyce or Rachel or even Chloe, and whatever the result of that would be shows that Joyce still needs Chloe around. But then even that is not the straw that breaks the camel's back, after all we know that Rachel and Chloe were in a fairly long relationship (best friends or more), i mean Rachel even left clothes at Chloe's house, and Joyce knew her well enough. Maybe Rachel even lived with them for a while? Maybe after she was kicked out of her own house/ran away. That would also explain why she couldn't use her family's resources to make a quicker escape happen and had to look elsewhere.

[Linkale]

I felt so much sorry for her. Also all those text messages she sent, asking about their daughter, when I read one that said something more or less like "How can you be doing this to me?" my heart broke. I felt disconnected with the game because I didn't want to help Chloe run away from town, I just wanted to get back home and talk to Joyce all the time and the game didn't let me do that.

[Linkale]

Originally posted by Prinegon:

Prediction: We know, that Chloe and Rachel want to leave town, but we also know for a fact that they won't for the next years. We also know, that Chloe will still live with Joyce, although she claims, she won't as long as David stays. So something has to happen that prohibits those plans of moving with Rachel. And since we know, that Rachel still tries to leave Arcadia Bay, no matter what, it may well be, that something happens to Chloe that changes everything.

I won't be surprised, if the last episode ends with an unsuccessful suicide atempt of Joyce. We can see over and over again, that Joyce desperately needs to be with Chloe, may it be to her text messages, or in cutscenes. We know, that she is suffering from depression. And we know, although she feels, David could be good for her, that she feels burdened, since David and Chloe won't come along together.

I am sure, a failed suicide atempt could bring Chloe to surpress her anger for David and promise to stay, while Rachel could feel betrayed by Chloe and has a reason to cheat on Chloe and search for alternatives to leave Arcadia Bay.

I'm sorry, but how could you predict something like that when this game is a prequel to another game which doesn't show anything like that to have happened?

[sdevitt526]

Originally posted by Linkale:

I felt so much sorry for her. Also all those text messages she sent, asking about their daughter, when I read one that said something more or less like "How can you be doing this to me?" my heart broke. I felt disconnected with the game because I didn't want to help Chloe run away from town, I just wanted to get back home and talk to Joyce all the time and the game didn't let me do that.

She tried so hard with Chloe.

[Dethlane]

Originally posted by sdevitt526:

She tried so hard with Chloe.

She didn't even try. She was quite pushy towards Chloe, wanted her to behave like she (Joyce) wanted, completely disregarding that Chloe is her own person with her own thoughts, feels, opinions. Like in the first morning, even knowing that Chloe hated David (and probably for a good reason), Joyce tried to make her be all goody-goody with him. Or on third day, if Chloe rejects David's photo (which she would've probably done herself), after David plainly insults her and grabs her hand, Joyce doesn't tell him off at all and, moreso, later texts Chloe like she's the bad one. I mean, this d*ckhead inserts himself in Chloe's life without her approval, acts like SHE should be the one to earn his respect, continuously belittles her and pushes her around, but no, in Joyce's eyes Chloe's the bad guy there. How utterly f*cked up one should be to behave like that towards their own daughter?

[Linkale]

Originally posted by Dethlane:

She didn't even try. She was quite pushy towards Chloe, wanted her to behave like she (Joyce) wanted, completely disregarding that Chloe is her own person with her own thoughts, feels, opinions. Like in the first morning, even knowing that Chloe hated David (and probably for a good reason), Joyce tried to make her be all goody-goody with him. Or on third day, if Chloe rejects David's photo (which she would've probably done herself), after David plainly insults her and grabs her hand, Joyce doesn't tell him off at all and, moreso, later texts Chloe like she's the bad one. I mean, this d*ckhead inserts himself in Chloe's life without her approval, acts like SHE should be the one to earn his respect, continuously belittles her and pushes her around, but no, in Joyce's eyes Chloe's the bad guy there. How utterly f*cked up one should be to behave like that towards their own daughter?

I think Chloe is generally mean. And I get it: She's a troubled teenager, she has issues etc etc but, generally speaking, she's disrespectful to everybody at this point in her life. So if I have to feel sorry about anyone, I will feel it about everyone but Chloe.
I think Joyce was right, David was right, principal Wells was right... almost everyone was right and they all tried so hard for Chloe but she can't appretiate any of that.

[Dethlane]

Originally posted by Linkale:

I think Chloe is generally mean. And I get it: She's a troubled teenager, she has issues etc etc but, generally speaking, she's disrespectful to everybody at this point in her life. So if I have to feel sorry about anyone, I will feel it about everyone but Chloe.

Chloe is not mean in general, let alone to everybody. But she was abandoned by everyone she ever loved and doesn't have anyone being there for her (until Max returned and hella made it up to her), thus she has to protect herself against all the pain she is going through. And with everyone pushing her around, she basically has no choice but to rebel

Originally posted by Linkale:

I think Joyce was right, David was right, principal Wells was right... almost everyone was right and they all tried so hard for Chloe but she can't appretiate any of that.

Riiiight, Joyce was right for pushing her own daughter around and lashing out on her all the time, David was right for inserting himself into Chloe's life and always treating her like his troubled juvenile recruit, Wells was right for not giving a sh*t about anything but his school and booze (and also for inviting Jeffersh*t later). And especially Nathan, he literally did everything for Chloe. Nuh-uh. Speaks volumes that you think so, really