Phantom Brigade

Phantom Brigade

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Ogaburan Mar 16, 2023 @ 7:28am
2
Just me or missiles totally ruin the game?
They seem to be in opposition to what the game is trying to be. You are supposed to get 'total information', and that is supposed to be how you beat the odds, no?

Unless you fight missiles... i found myself taking notes on a notepad while facing something that can only be described as 'missile spam' - all the enemy had missiles, some shooting twice. Game ofc does not keep track of the missiles... so u need to remember yourself and keep visual track... wtf? why? this is beyond tedious. To the point i don't think I am going to keep playing this game. I really want to love it, but the missile mechanics are killing me. Its very annoying to avoid missiles, yet they seems to be treated as a casual weapon.

In fact i find flaws in almost all the ways info is given to the player. Why not show potential dmg on the enemy? Why not show dmg inflicted and taken during a replay? I would very much love to know these things. Why is it so hard to see heat capacity and decipation while im building mechs. Its also very hard to compare kit, since some have 'built in' components and some don't. UI is barely functional.

This very much feels like a beta, a prototype still. Why slap a 1.0 tag on it and piss off potential fans?
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Showing 1-15 of 46 comments
Donovan Mar 16, 2023 @ 8:09am 
Originally posted by Ogaburan:
They seem to be in opposition to what the game is trying to be. You are supposed to get 'total information', and that is supposed to be how you beat the odds, no?

Unless you fight missiles... i found myself taking notes on a notepad while facing something that can only be described as 'missile spam' - all the enemy had missiles, some shooting twice. Game ofc does not keep track of the missiles... so u need to remember yourself and keep visual track... wtf? why? this is beyond tedious. To the point i don't think I am going to keep playing this game. I really want to love it, but the missile mechanics are killing me. Its very annoying to avoid missiles, yet they seems to be treated as a casual weapon.

In fact i find flaws in almost all the ways info is given to the player. Why not show potential dmg on the enemy? Why not show dmg inflicted and taken during a replay? I would very much love to know these things. Why is it so hard to see heat capacity and decipation while im building mechs. Its also very hard to compare kit, since some have 'built in' components and some don't. UI is barely functional.

This very much feels like a beta, a prototype still. Why slap a 1.0 tag on it and piss off potential fans?

So, missiles are quite easily avoided by dashing. Sure, it's annoying having to do some mental math and make a logical assumption as to when the missiles will hit, but trust me, missiles are far less an issue now than they used to be, especially since the absurd +70% damage bug was fixed.

Second, if you'd done any sort of research regarding replays and damage dealt here, you'd know that the devs have posted, on more than two or three occasions, that due to the non-deterministic nature of the game, the game itself quite literally CANNOT predict what damage is going to be dealt and when, or replay the damage that was dealt.

The game doesn't know what's going to hit when or where. Everything is calculated on the fly. Your chances of hitting a target are ENTIRELY based on the right shots hitting on-target despite any scatter or cover/terrain obstructions.

As far as heat goes, you can quite easily see your max heat in the mech building phase. Just hover over the red attack icon or the purple dash, you'll see how much heat they're expected to generate over how much heat you have maximum. Sure, you can't see the exact amount of heat you have at any given time during combat, but that's never been an issue for me.

You can also view your total heat dissipation on the same screen, in the far upper right corner. I'd agree that comparing parts is a bit of a chore in terms of having to remove modules, compare, re-equip modules, etc, but for a game like Phantom Brigade? It's a minor inconvenience I'm more than willing to put up with.

Game was made by an indie dev team, it's priced at an indie dev game range, and I'd say it's worth absolutely every penny spent. Just might not be the type of game you'd assumed it was going to be or a game you enjoy, and that happens. If you're not liking the game, request a refund through Steam.


And for clarification:

Meaning of non-deterministic in English
likely to have a different result every time, so that it is not possible to guess what will happen: We can adopt a non-deterministic position that sees social structure as a complex system that is unstable and dynamic.
Last edited by Donovan; Mar 16, 2023 @ 8:09am
Galamesh Mar 16, 2023 @ 8:28am 
You do not have total information. You know what the enemy plans to do, but you never have the outcome of those actions.

For instance the prediction allows you to plan walking directly into an enemy and lets you pass through them as if you were ghosts. In execution, either one of the units will crash, or both depending on weight classes or damage dealt.

In a similar fashion, if you plan a mech to attack an enemy and hit execute, but the mech gets destroyed or disabled before action can get carried out, this can open the door to a domino effect. An enemy you thought would get destroyed does not get shot at, which in turn shoots at another of your mechs and you potentially take damage on multiple units.
Mosey Mar 16, 2023 @ 8:29am 
Honestly, missiles not telling you even ballpark when they might hit is super annoying. Melee not even being close to the tooltip is also annoying, and that doesn't have the excuse of 'non-deterministic' non-sense either.

The game can track slow as hell projectiles fired from a launcher and it shows their estimated path and speed, they could have done the same with missiles.

Although, in at least some fairness, plasma weapons seem to have some issues too so perhaps the game really just needs some bugs quashed when it comes to non-ballistic projectiles of all kinds.

Also I second the notion that there should be a toggle that shows damage numbers in the replay. If there is one, I haven't found it, and personally I'd love to be able to look at those numbers in slow-time since it's way easier to read than numbers popping up rapid fire all over the map.

EDIT:

Also, the developer did make a balance pass on missile units and you should rarely see more than one in a given map. Occasionally you'll have two of them, and then even more rarely three. I haven't seen a map with ALL launchers since the patch maybe a week ago.
Last edited by Mosey; Mar 16, 2023 @ 8:31am
Ogaburan Mar 16, 2023 @ 8:34am 
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZjJkNWY0MmI5NTc4MzdhOWRlNTVkOTIzNWUzMTM0ZWZmMDA5YWI1YiZjdD1n/V7QG9ZG9NcKjENOCyR/giphy.gif

lol wtf.
Expectation: Managed to trick a unit to harm itself by shooting a missile into a building.
Reality: Most missiles go THROUGH the building...

Im just done with this game.
Too bad, looked promising... and now i read this behavior is AFTER missiles were nerfed... how horrible were they before? Whoever designed this needs to be fired.
Mosey Mar 16, 2023 @ 8:39am 
Originally posted by Ogaburan:
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZjJkNWY0MmI5NTc4MzdhOWRlNTVkOTIzNWUzMTM0ZWZmMDA5YWI1YiZjdD1n/V7QG9ZG9NcKjENOCyR/giphy.gif

lol wtf.
Expectation: Managed to trick a unit to harm itself by shooting a missile into a building.
Reality: Most missiles go THROUGH the building...

Im just done with this game.
Too bad, looked promising... and now i read this behavior is AFTER missiles were nerfed... how horrible were they before? Whoever designed this needs to be fired.


If you pay attention, the missiles DID hit the building and it blocked half of them from launching.

Missiles do a ton of impact damage that blows buildings apart, so it doesn't necessarily take an entire volley to vaporize soft cover like a building.

Same trick with the same angle using a hillside would have blocked 100% of the missiles instead of just half of them.

Wait until you run up against units with railguns. Those suckers punch through literally everything, including your shield.
Last edited by Mosey; Mar 16, 2023 @ 8:40am
rosento Mar 16, 2023 @ 8:46am 
I agree. was doing fine, until half of my enemies have missles. i cant win. i cant even compete. they fire HOMING UNGUIDED missles, that even trying to predict is a huge hassle. and usually unsuccessful even dashing... takes too long and the missle hit me before i even move, not to mention they home in. UNGUIDED, missles homing in. 10 unguided missles, that track my characters, from 1 gun. that can kill 1 of my characters in 1 turn, when it takes me 3 or 4 GOOD turns to take out 1 of theres.... at least with the vulkan machine guns i could use cover and outrun at close range
Last edited by rosento; Mar 16, 2023 @ 8:49am
Ogaburan Mar 16, 2023 @ 8:52am 
Originally posted by Donovan:
So, missiles are quite easily avoided by dashing. Sure, it's annoying having to do some mental math and make a logical assumption as to when the missiles will hit, but trust me, missiles are far less an issue now than they used to be, especially since the absurd +70% damage bug was fixed.
No, no their not.
Math im good at, problem is i need to also keep up with the visual aspects, that so fat have only failed me. I posted a gif of missiles going through buildings. What 'mental math' on my part could have prevented that?

Originally posted by Donovan:
Second, if you'd done any sort of research regarding replays and damage dealt here, you'd know that the devs have posted, on more than two or three occasions, that due to the non-deterministic nature of the game, the game itself quite literally CANNOT predict what damage is going to be dealt and when, or replay the damage that was dealt.
Sound like bad design to me.
Most games have in reality two variables, one shown to the player and the 'real one'. Best example i can think of is in X-Com that secretly add buffs to the player the worse it gets. Forgot exactly what or how coz im an old, but 'if you do some research'...

Ironically that another game with 'phantom' (doctrine) in its name failed because of being too deterministic. Taking away the devs ability to tweak things mid action sounds like someone cutting corners or making an abysmal design decision that will doom this game to failure.

Congrats.

Originally posted by Donovan:
As far as heat goes, you can quite easily see your max heat in the mech building phase. Just hover over the red attack icon or the purple dash...

... I'd agree that comparing parts is a bit of a chore in terms of having to remove modules, compare, re-equip modules, etc, but for a game like Phantom Brigade? It's a minor inconvenience I'm more than willing to put up with.

... Game was made by an indie dev team...
Why? I don't want to hover, i want to plainly see.
Why force me to click and hover so much?
Its not a 'minor' part of the game, its supposed to be 50% of the game. Spending time building and tweaking mechs is a core aspect of any mech game. Making it so cumbersome is counter intuitive. Indie dev? Hire a UI designer.
Ogaburan Mar 16, 2023 @ 8:58am 
Originally posted by Mosey:
The game can track slow as hell projectiles fired from a launcher and it shows their estimated path and speed, they could have done the same with missiles.
This! Such an elegant simple fix.

Originally posted by Mosey:
Also, the developer did make a balance pass on missile units and you should rarely see more than one in a given map. Occasionally you'll have two of them, and then even more rarely three. I haven't seen a map with ALL launchers since the patch maybe a week ago.
Just finished a battle with all of the enemy having missiles (not counting tanks), although one of them was a side weapon. Having a rocket launcher side arm is also mind-blowing. Was this game ever play tested?
Ogaburan Mar 16, 2023 @ 8:59am 
Originally posted by rosento:
I agree. was doing fine, until half of my enemies have missles. i cant win. i cant even compete. they fire HOMING UNGUIDED missles, that even trying to predict is a huge hassle. and usually unsuccessful even dashing... takes too long and the missle hit me before i even move, not to mention they home in. UNGUIDED, missles homing in. 10 unguided missles, that track my characters, from 1 gun. that can kill 1 of my characters in 1 turn, when it takes me 3 or 4 GOOD turns to take out 1 of theres.... at least with the vulkan machine guns i could use cover and outrun at close range
Exactly~!
Donovan Mar 16, 2023 @ 9:11am 
Originally posted by rosento:
I agree. was doing fine, until half of my enemies have missles. i cant win. i cant even compete. they fire HOMING UNGUIDED missles, that even trying to predict is a huge hassle. and usually unsuccessful even dashing... takes too long and the missle hit me before i even move, not to mention they home in. UNGUIDED, missles homing in. 10 unguided missles, that track my characters, from 1 gun. that can kill 1 of my characters in 1 turn, when it takes me 3 or 4 GOOD turns to take out 1 of theres.... at least with the vulkan machine guns i could use cover and outrun at close range

Depending on the weapons you're using, double check the levels of your guns versus the enemy level you're shooting at. I've found anything beyond two levels of difference means you're likely dealing less overall damage, and zero concussion damage, period. Every couple provinces you liberate you'll end up needing to upgrade at least your weapons, if not your parts.

Originally posted by Ogaburan:
No, no their not.
Math im good at, problem is i need to also keep up with the visual aspects, that so fat have only failed me. I posted a gif of missiles going through buildings. What 'mental math' on my part could have prevented that?

As somebody above pointed out, the gif you posted clearly shows at least half the salvo of missiles basically being eaten by the building. Structures are soft cover, nothing more. If you want to stop all the missiles, gotta make them eat terrain. Otherwise, depending on how far away the missiles launch from, give it anywhere from 1-2 seconds on the timeline and then do a dash or two. Should cause the missiles to scramble and, more often than not, just outright fail to reach the target.

When you've been targeted by missiles, the entire job of that mech during the next turn is quite literally nothing more than staying alive and dodging ♥♥♥♥. The more enemies focused on one or two of your mechs, the more they leave themselves open to being shot at by the rest of your squad.

Originally posted by Ogaburan:
Sound like bad design to me.
Most games have in reality two variables, one shown to the player and the 'real one'. Best example i can think of is in X-Com that secretly add buffs to the player the worse it gets. Forgot exactly what or how coz im an old, but 'if you do some research'...

Ironically that another game with 'phantom' (doctrine) in its name failed because of being too deterministic. Taking away the devs ability to tweak things mid action sounds like someone cutting corners or making an abysmal design decision that will doom this game to failure.

Congrats.

As I said, the game is non-deterministic in nature in regards to what's going to hit and what's not going to hit, quite literally meaning the game CANNOT REPLICATE THE RESULTS. It is IMPOSSIBLE to replicate what happened within the game's engine. What happened, happened. Haven't used it much myself, but I do know that by holding Ctrl you can view more information such as total damage taken. Not sure if it's over the course of the entire battle, or just based on the last immediate turn. While it isn't going to provide per-hit details, it'll give you an overall snapshot of damage dealt and taken.

Originally posted by Ogaburan:
Why? I don't want to hover, i want to plainly see.
Why force me to click and hover so much?
Its not a 'minor' part of the game, its supposed to be 50% of the game. Spending time building and tweaking mechs is a core aspect of any mech game. Making it so cumbersome is counter intuitive. Indie dev? Hire a UI designer.

Congrats, here's your lazy-as-♥♥♥♥ award. I've told you where to find the information in-game, it's up to you to do with it as you will. If you're spending 50% of the game building and tweaking your mechs, then you're going to be in the exact same window where the max heat and heat dissipation are located. It doesn't take more than two seconds of your time to see the information.

I've seen games with far worse UIs than Phantom Brigade. Games with UIs that are far less intuitive than Phantom Brigade. Games that give far less information than Phantom Brigade (Or give too much information in some cases).
rosento Mar 16, 2023 @ 9:12am 
Im literally only in the 2nd map(1st past tutorial area), and the last 4 attacks i have tried always has the same 10 missile per shot spam man. i'm done. i cant do this. i'm requesting a refund. i cant progress. i cant fight, i cant get supplies, i cant even really craft anything yet. vulcans were bad. any gun that can kill in 1 turn is bad. but i learned to deal with the double vulcan team ups they sent at me, but its like the game is trying to just up the anty after every fight i win. i even waited for 4 days to get the occupation level back to 1, and it still didn't matter. forget that 1 missile guy, theres 7 enemies vs my 3, even if i could knock him out turn 1 or 2, those other enemies would rip me apart
Mosey Mar 16, 2023 @ 9:16am 
My basic rule of thumb for avoiding missiles is two-fold.

Plan A) Is there cover nearby that could block the missiles? If so, hide behind that. Optimally I should be behind cover within a second after they stop firing. Against some missiles with a high arc, this will probably not work. Low trajectory missiles are easier to avoid.

Plan B) If there is no cover, just move until the line that shows missile fire disappears, then move for a second after that, then dash one or twice depending on range. Once if they're fairly close, two if they're further away.

That works easily 80% of the time, and it works for multiple launches against that target.

It's much harder of course against multiple launches against multiple units, but at least one unit should be able to return fire every round and that will eventually whittle down their missile units who I notice are usually light or medium targets so they're a little easier to burst down.
Donovan Mar 16, 2023 @ 9:19am 
Another tip to give, is unless you're a glutton for punishment, running a secondary weapon is, IMO, just outright useless. Pick up a shield, your heat is better spent firing a primary weapon or dashing, not some wimpy secondary weapon. If enemies are too close or too far, then you're either out of position (Put your mech in a bad spot) or simply need to reposition in reaction to what the enemies did during the last immediate turn.

You can often cause missiles to come straight at your mech by dashing, at which point just throw your shield up in the direction they're going to be coming from (Again, by holding Ctrl and clicking on the ground) and you should be able to block 'em.
Ogaburan Mar 16, 2023 @ 9:21am 
Originally posted by Donovan:
Congrats, here's your lazy-as-♥♥♥♥ award.
Lol lazy? Do i need to hover over my cars speedometer to see my max speed?
Wtf is wrong with you?

Originally posted by Donovan:
I've seen games with far worse UIs than Phantom Brigade. Games with UIs that are far less intuitive than Phantom Brigade. Games that give far less information than Phantom Brigade (Or give too much information in some cases).
Ok, explains whats 'wrong' with you. You just like swimming in ♥♥♥♥.
So when you find a less smelly piece of feces ur all giddy with excitement.
Most ppl have standards lol.

Also, there isn't such a thing as too much info in a tactical game.
At worst it gives the illusion of complexity.
Donovan Mar 16, 2023 @ 9:26am 
Originally posted by Ogaburan:
Originally posted by Donovan:
Congrats, here's your lazy-as-♥♥♥♥ award.
Lol lazy? Do i need to hover over my cars speedometer to see my max speed?
Wtf is wrong with you?

Originally posted by Donovan:
I've seen games with far worse UIs than Phantom Brigade. Games with UIs that are far less intuitive than Phantom Brigade. Games that give far less information than Phantom Brigade (Or give too much information in some cases).
Ok, explains whats 'wrong' with you. You just like swimming in ♥♥♥♥.
So when you find a less smelly piece of feces ur all giddy with excitement.
Most ppl have standards lol.

Also, there isn't such a thing as too much info in a tactical game.
At worst it gives the illusion of complexity.
I'll take any game that delivers exactly what it promises to be over a game that gives the illusion of being what it claims to be while delivering nothing worthwhile. Phantom Brigade made no promises of being anything other than what it is, and it delivered on that pretty damned well in my opinion.

In regards to standards, I think too many people have become absolutely spoiled by all the hand-holding current-day AAA titles do. Look at Morrowind, didn't hold your hand in any way what-so-ever. It let you murder any NPC whether they were important to the main plot or not. But when we get to Oblivion and Skyrim? Oh no, that NPC is important, you can't kill them.
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Date Posted: Mar 16, 2023 @ 7:28am
Posts: 46