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You don't use a secondary spec on the Bismarck just because it's fun, you use it because it's basically the only good build for the Bismarck since the main guns aren't good. The german t10 BB can get away without a secondary build because its guns are better compared to t8 and t9.
Keep in mind though, you need a commander with 18 points for a secondary build. Less than that and it won't be very effective. IFHE is a must, otherwise half of your secondaries won't even deal damage to t8+ DDs. Manual Fire Control is a must, otherwise your secondaries won't hit most of their shells. And Advanced Firing training is a must to get more than 11km secondary gun range and to be able to even engage several ships with secondaries.
Dont even give me that. It is outclassed by everyother tier8 bb due to the simple fact that in practice is not how the paper stats work out...
It has tier 7 guns that end up fighting tier10 ships, we all know how that works for tier 8 boats. And while the boat will not be cit due to the turtle back armor, the armor itself is susceptible to all other damage. It is a carrier target 100%, it will take more damage more often while angled and relying on an ability to spot torps or even DD at 4km ranges is redundant. Spotting planes last longer and PT will indicate when you should expect torps when there are no incoming shells.
You're right the main guns are terrible even for tier7. And the 2ndaries are just as bad with all the captain abilities. You cannot rely on the auto fire from the guns to accurately hit a ship changing speed and turning all while managing nearly 300 on target can potentially net you a whooping shy of 19k dmg. It absolutely amazes me that people even consider the 2ndary build a viable option. Im now glad that this portion of the bismark discussion have more and more players taking my side of the argument in game.
And you're last paragraph contradicts your first sentence.
The Winrates of t8 BBs on the EU server in the last 2 months, from best to worst:
Massachusetts 54.46%
Richelieu 49.84%
Bismarck 49.31%
Amagi 49.21%
Monarch 48.91%
Gascogne 48.04%
Alabama 48.03%
North Carolina 47.96%
Vanguard 47.82%
Tirpitz 47.37%
(source: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/index.html )
This is not on paper or in theory, this is the actual data of the EU players provided by wargaming's API. In the last 2 months, Bismarck was the 3rd best t8 BB, while the Tirpitz (which is the same ship with the exception of trading hydro for torpedoes) was the worst.
The Bismarck is a very strong BB thanks to the hydro. The main guns aren't good, but that's why she has very good secondaries to make up for the difference - but as i said, you need a full secondary build (which requires 18 points) to make them work. The middle deck armor reduces the damage taken by HE spam quite a lot, and the hydro makes you quite save from torpedo hits so you can survive longer and have a higher influence on the matches.
Only 19k damage from 300 secondary hits with a full secondary build (IFHE, AFT and manual secondaries) is way too low, unless you basically only used secondaries on other german BBs (or some t10 ones from other nations).
My gripe includes the 18 pt cap.
Problem with the win rates assessment is that these percentages do count for the quality of teammates, or am i wrong?
I'd question the rate of the tirpitz by speculating the individuals (those without the time to grind out all the ships in the game) who acquired one of the earliest high tier premium ships in the game. BTW, youre source doesn't have any records found and has potential malware in the ad to the right.
Again, any BB that requires to be within what range of a destroyer to kill said destroyer is not a good BB. If youre referring to torp spotting; how long and how often, again, PT and spotter craft do a better job IMO.
While HE is reduced, AP from heavy cruisers will eat mid armor unless youre not talking broadside, then why are they shooting mid armor. And while we are talking about HE, we should discuss the susceptibility of fires set on the ship.
I am talking 18 pt cap and I won't move the goal posts of the gripe I have for the ship for when in practice, I face the ships I face, oppose to hypothetical matches and paper statistics.
I mean if we are going to bring in numbers to argue, can someone find the %s of ships who were top half of teams that won?
You are indeed wrong about that. Given enough matches, the quality of teammates is completely irrelevant, because it's random. Imagine throwing a dice - if you just throw it 12 times, the numbers will be all over the place. But if you throw it hundreds or even thousand of times, each number will be displayed about 16.7%.
In WoWs, for every losing team, there is a winning team (draws happen rarely), so the average winrate is 50%. But if you look at a specific ship, you take out some parts of the random factor. For that ships, the ship was always in its team. That means if it's a bad ship (in general or in the current meta), it always creates a disadvantage for its team, thus reducing the winrate of that ship. The other way around for good ships - they always create an advantage for their teams.
Btw, the same is true whan looking at a specific player. A good player always creates an advantage for their team, while a bad player always creates a disadvantage. Imagine a player who always drives his ship into the enemy team without shooting anything - in all of their matches, their team basically starts with a ship and points disadvantage, you would expect that such a player has a bad winrate, no matter how good or bad their teammates are.
What do you mean, no records found? And just use an adblocker if you fear malware through ads. I don't even have ads there, even without an adblocker.
That is not true. Again, look at the win rates. The t8 BB with the highest WR is also a secondary focused ship with unreliable main guns who has trouble hitting DDs at 10+km range.
The reason why it's so much better than the Birsmarck (or any other t8 BB) is the higher caliber of main guns (meaning it's better against cruisers and battleship, no difference for DDs), the better heal and the way higher accuracy for secondary guns.
AP from heavy cruisers will eat the mid armor of all battleships showing broadside (not to mention what they do to cruisers). That's not related to the Birsmarck alone.
The chance of having fires on the ship is also the same, unless you consider comparing it to a fire prevention build, which is valid - the Bismarck is not without weaknesses. But you also have also to take into consideration that most players prefer to shoot HE at battleships that are covered in 32mm armor (because the deal way more damage to those than to german BBs with HE).
As i said, 19k for 300 secondary hits with IFHE is really low. What are your stats (winrate, average damage, kill-death-ratio, survival rate) with the Bismarck? You can look these up on the WoWs website or ingame.
No. We have only the stats that are provided by Wargaming's API. But as i explained, the winrate is enough and very accurate at such high numbers of battles to see how strong (or weak) a ship is.
You are incorrect. MM is not random as it assigns teams with the best chance of maintaining a 50% win rate. This has been confirmed by wargaming and if it is the case, one would assume that losing 5 games in a row and jumping into a ship you want to have higher win rate in would significantly increase the chances of a win in that ship in the following match.
The point is how close one has to be to torps or a destroyer for hydro to be effective. Your point was that hydro makes the ship best while I counter that simple map awareness and PT makes hydro moot.
Your comment about mid armor now makes your original mid armor statement moot. Again, Im not arguing paper stats.
Where can you find the numbers for damage dealt by different guns thru out matches, I'd love to look up your insight to this.
Again I disagree about win rates simply due to the individuals playing said ships.
That said, according to https://na.wows-numbers.com/ (not a malicious site) I have nearly 140 games in the mismark, a win rate of 59.4% an abysmal 62k average dmg and a PR of over 1700. My worst Tier8 BB also has one of the best win rates. Curiosity got me looking up your name and I hope that you go by a different moniker because that 1 person in WoW has NO experience in the bismark.
No it's not the case, it was explicitly stated that patent is not used in WoWs (no info if it's used anywhere at all, you're not required to use patent just so it's protected).
Raw damage is a not a good stat, i think winrate and avg XP are more important. Causing 20k damage to destroyers or cruisers would get you more XP than 20k to BBs and push your team to victory more likely. Seems you're doing quite well even without some specific builds :)
You are incorrect. Wargaming has confirmed that the MM is completely random (with the exception of ships, shipclasses and tiers of course).
You don't need to be close. 10-11km is enough, but a well timed push with hydro can be a game changer. If you suspect incoming torpedoes, just use hydro - not only to get yourself an early warning, but also your teammates. Even if you don't really need it because your map awareness is good, it can save a teammate and thus giving you a better chance to win.
Doesn't matter. It's not like the good players play one ship and the bad players an other.
wows-numbers.com has the issue that they track matches from the very introduction of a ship. But the game changes. Balancing gets adjusted over time, new skills were introduced (IFHE for example, Birmarck secondaries were very bad in high tier matches before that). It became easier to level up commanders and reach the 18 skill points required for a secondary build thanks to the addition of better signal flags and camos, and with more time, more people got high level commanders.
That's why the side i linked is superior when comparing ships: It only takes the current state of the game and the current meta into account.
In addition, if the Bismarck has the highest winrate of your t8 BBs, then it's your best t8 BB, as long as you have enough matches to reduce variance. Damage isn't everything, it's way more important to what ships you dealt damage. And yes, i don't own a Bismarck on the live server, but i do own a Tirpitz which is basically a Bismarck without hydro and i tested the ship a few times on the PTS. So i know very well what the Bismarck is capable of and also what i'm missing out without the consumable.
As Ryuu has said, you are incorrect, this has never been confirmed by WG, however they have confirmed they don't use skill based MM, which is what you're implying.
And yes, if I have a few bad matches and am still in the right frame of mind, I quite often jump into my Fiji and maintain my 67% WR with her. Nothing to do with MM, all down to the fact I play her well and can help swing games.
The matchmaker does not take into account players' skill level or winrate, it only operates on ship classes and tiers, a bit of nations as well. So it doesn't try to push your winrate down if you win several times in a row.
A very rough explanation: you have 50% chance to have a more skilled team, 50% less skilled, so on average your chance to win is still 50%. Only you can push it (on average) in either direction. Can you carry the team or does the team always needs to carry you?
Assembling a division with good players(even without voicechat) may improve your chances. Or worsen them, if those players are in fact below average. So in general players have 40-60% winrate on average if they play solo depending on their skill.
Explanation of recent matchmaker changes: https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/common/mirror-mirror/
As explained by Ryuu and the link provided, if the game is truly random then the 50% and 40-60% wouldn't be true at all given the nature of what is the definition of random. If I am wrong, I'll accept that but the wording in the explainations need to be corrected.
Regardless, offtopic.
Yes, you are wrong. It's 50% BECAUSE of the nature of what is "random". If you flip a coin a few hundred times, head and tails will also accur about 50% of the time for the same reason.
And the 40-60% also happen because the Matchmaking is random: If you are worse than the average, your team will be weaker than the enemy team, because you team only has 11 random players (who are average on average, because that's why it's average) and the enemy team 12, resulting in a lower winrate. And if you are better, your team will be stronger, resulting in a better winrate.
And as you quoted: "Only you can push it (on average) in either direction." You can only do that because the MM does not try to maintain a 50% winrate for players.
https://youtu.be/gohEObUz9AE