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Diskussionsregler och -riktlinjer
6 
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As for the guns thing, you have to be really close for a friendly to block your fire. Its actually quite unhelpful to have someone following you around that closely since you will be blocking them if they are dodging fire or trying to retreat.
All that aside, if someone is purposefully griefing you then send a replay to support and they will be dealt with. However 9 times out of 10 its really not deliberate and you are just as culpable as the other person, and possibly more-so for the reasons outlined above.
Torpedo boats should not typically be further away from the enemy than teammates - torpedo boats have the best concealment in the game (if we include periscope depth subs among torpedo boats, obv); torpedoes take time to reach the enemy, time which the enemy can spend changing course-and-speed to throw them off - reducing your battle impact if you're further away from the enemy than is strictly necessary.
Torpedoes are almost always faster than teammates - if teammates' hulls are beating your torps to the target, then that sounds like a "you" problem.
And torping teammates doesn't count as an infraction unless you're doing it tons - in which case, get your act together.
There's no "kill stealing" in this game. Has this been explained to you before?
Trying to win matches efficiently is important, but no-one should be hanging around letting the enemy just farm the team waiting for your long-distance slow ass torps to do a job that teammates can just do quicker themselves.
Sounds like you were trying to steal a teammate's kill with your torps, considering he was clearly closer to the enemy and hard engaging them - lucky for you there's no such thing as kill stealing.
Sounds like you're mispositioning - I'm getting Deja vous, haven't I had to explain this to you before?
In Ops you want to be picking up the slack - so if a teammate rocks up to a good position to farm the enemy, that frees you up to find another position to cover a secondary objective or farm a different group of enemies, etc.
In my experience, the vast vast vast majority of players in Ops derp around in stupid positions - in which case if you're routinely getting crowded out by those players, guess where you are. Yep, in a stupid position too.
In PvP you want to be establishing a crossfire with teammates - which means looking at the minimap and positioning properly *before* a teammate just rocks up right next to you.
You blocking someone's kiting zone by being right behind them while they're engaging is also super unhelpful to them and team in general.
Yeah, people who don't attempt all the secondary objectives need to get shoved overboard, with you on this one.
Completing the primary objective? Pretty much impossible to fail unless everyone else on the team hard-throws from the start while you're trying to secure a secondary.
Best way to be a team player is think about how the game actually works and improve your play to hard carry teammates, instead of whining about made up nonsense like "kill stealing".
Yeah it sucks when someone gets the last hit, but I'd rather that ship die than slink off with 5 hp and later come back to kill someone.
it is know as Kill Confirming ... Simple as.
Or the UK BB who will "Deadpool regen" his ship
Now there is no way an automated system, both for rewards or punishment, could adequately catch any of that. So all you can do is take the replays in question and send them to support with a description of why you did. (Try to keep that neutral and factual. Support has no idea why you wrote coming in and opening your ticket. They do not want to read rants and insults, even if they're not directed at them. They just want the info what you saw and what they should check so they can work on it.)
You won't ever see what sanctions, if any, were chosen. But if they were really deliberately sabotaging (the "we won't play, there's a low tier ship with us" thing for example would be rather easy to prove, especially since they likely talked about it in chat), there are penalties for that which can go up to an indefinite ban of an account with repeat offenders.
Most of the time its not intentional. On very rare occasions it is.
I know it's difficult to create something that can accurately/reliably catch that sort of thing, but at the very least there shouldn't be punishments for those who keep firing even if part of their path is blocked.
I once got stuck heading off the edge of the map, as another ship was right next to me and blocked my way back onto the map (and reverse didn't work). All I could do is to try continue firing hoping for some of the shots to get through on target, but after the game I was punished and had all earnings withheld because of "poor sportsmanship" (even though my Karma should be extremely high as I get complimented far more often than reported).
Pan-asian cruisers with deep-water torps that can't actually hit most teammates in the game, you mean?
And that, like torpedo-boat DDs, have particularly good concealment so can safely get closer to the enemy than pretty much any teammate that those deep water torps could potentially hit?
Unimpressive guns? At tier 10 Jinan has the highest HE DPM in the game except for Colbert, Smolensk, and a couple of T11 superships.
It's got the 5th best fires-per-minute in the game, and it's nearly tied with the T11 Annapolis which is 4th.
Too detectable? Jinan's base detection is a tiny 12.13km - there's only 8 stealthier cruisers in tier 10, one of which is incredibly rare (Kitakami), and I think at least 4 of the remaining ones are steel ships.
The only stealthier tech-tree cruisers are San Martin, Minotaur and Worcester, and Worcester's detection is 12.06km, so only 0.07km better.
And of course the line has smokescreens which means - assuming you understand smokescreen gameplay - you can create your own safe places to farm from closer than ships like Worcester that have to island camp until it is safe to come out.
If you drop down to Tier 9, Sejong straight up has the best HE DPM and FPM in the entire tier.
Jinan may be good, but hardly comparable to lower tier Asian cruisers - it has a much higher fire rate.
They become somewhat usable in Tier 9 and 10 (Tier 10 mainly because of fire rate), but the AP on the Chinese cruisers is pretty much useless (they're basically like the HE only Euro destroyer line).
I'm currently at tier 8, and the only improvement I noticed from lower tiers is that it can fire 2 torpedo volleys per side.
And all that doesn't change the fact that they take massive damage when they come under fire. I have had Tier 9 French and German cruisers at full HP killed by single shots from supership BBs recently, and they have twice the HP and much better armour. Heading out up front in Chinese cruisers gets you sunk pretty fast unless you know the enemy has no radar to deploy (if you stop in a smoke screen and enemy radar is engaged your chances of escape are negligible if you have fire from multiple ships concentrated on you in a ship with 30k hp and basically no armour worth speaking of).
As soon as *radar* ships engage radar whilst you're inside their radar range you're toast, if there's ships that can overmatch you, or if they can out trade you.
Ships that don't have radar can't radar you; ships that are just outside of their radar's maximum radius cannot radar you; ships whose radar is on cooldown can't radar you.
If you are detected by radar, but behind island cover, ships that do not have your big rainbow arcs cannot hit you, whilst you can hit them.
Ships with short-duration radar can have its duration expire before battleships have time to even traverse their guns onto you.
Refusing to come to grips with effective smokescreen play because the mere concept of radars existing in the game paralyses you isn't a good excuse for lowering your battle impact or refusing to learn the limits of effective smokescreen use.
It's shooting at things with much bigger healthpools, and much higher innate fire resistance.
Chumphon's HE DPM is 9th best out of 89 Tier7+T8 cruisers.
It's base fires-per-minute isn't great (although it benefits disproportionately from Demo expert because of low fire-chance-per-shell) - which is an issue because of how frequently it shatters - but it has high impact vs DDs, which wins matches and can farm 19mm plates just fine.
It has the second best detection in its tier, behind Ferrucio.
Harbin has second best HE DPM in its tier (if you consider AL Montpelier to be a reskin of Cleveland for sake of convenience) - with "tolerable" fire chance, that also gets more of a boost from DE skill than most of its peers.
I can't say I enjoyed either ship - but my winrate in both was relatively high because they have the stealth, the smokescreen, and the gunpower to mug enemy DDs at the start when the friendly DD engages, which wins matches.
There's a discussion to be had about the merits of IFHE on Chumphon in particular, IMO - but one that is very much tangential to the topic at hand.
Their stealth means that they can potentially fill the role of DDs in match-ups where there's nothing left on the field that outspots them.
Figuring out how cruisers survive is core cruiser gameplay. In ships with high shell arcs that easily clear mountains that returning shells cannot, this involves island camping.
In ships with smokescreens this involves finding opportunities to either remove the obstacles to smoke-farming;
or else finding ways to farm safely while those obstacles get removed for you.
Single salvoes, not single shots. Maximum damage one single shell can do (not counting dets which can happen from low calibre low tier HE spam just as easily if not even easier) is 19,500 from a Tier 10 Incomparable.
Trying to just eat stuff that overmatches you is a misplay.
Depending on the match-up in question, you shouldn't be taking high-threat shots in either of those - especially not multiple shots from one single salvo.
Henri line you want to be acceleration juking so that shells land in the water where you used to be / were going to be before you throttled down; Hindenburg line you want to be positioning so that you can traverse-grief the overmatch threats as well as use dispersion to make devastating damage improbable.
In both cases you want those threats to be maximum distance away from you to maximise dispersion and travel time - if you're farming them (rather than their teammates) that can mean spotting plane on Roon / Hindenberg line. If you're farming someone else can get even further away than that while you farm the HE.
This doesn't apply to panasian cruisers that have some of the worst base ranges in their respective tiers and really floaty shells that won't reliably connect if you're not close to what you're shooting at - with Panasian cruisers you instead use stealth to traverse-grief stuff that you're closer to, mixed up with smokescreens or island cover depending on what is most appropriate.
Your torpedo range in Chumphon is 10.5km, Harbin 11km. Stealth radar range is 12km (short duration, only a handful of ships in the tier spread have it).
Your base main battery range in Chumphon is 14.2km.
Smokescreen gameplay requires you first deal with the obstacles that make it risky.
That means paying attention to where radars are and what their ranges are and potentially baiting out their cooldowns, etc;
that means paying attention to what torpedo threats there are and where they come from and either countering them (support your DD early) or angling against them preemptively;
that means paying attention to what can push you (maybe with hydro) and planning around that possibility;
that means paying attention to what can provide you vision, and what on the enemy team may be able to blind fire you, moving within the smokescreen to minimise this;
that means paying attention to island cover so you can keep farming when the smokescreen's on cooldown or so that torps can't reach you.
These are core elements of smokescreen use, and they're a major part of how smoke-farming ships (like the panasian cruiser line) are skill-indexed.
Refusing to learn this because you might get sunk is arguably far worse for team than a teammate eating your ineffectual attempts at torpedo-sniping from just outside of your detection radius.
Same applies to not mastering control of the vision game, and thus getting yourself spotted and deleted prematurely.
But this is all getting very far away from you moaning about a teammate who is clearly pushing hard enough that he should be providing tons of vision for you to safely smoke farm off of; creating enough space around him to deny the enemy the ability to hard push you; drawing enough fire that you could open water gunboat safely by traverse / reload griefing in order to preserve your smokescreen for when you need to disengage.
TL:DR
I simply want the game to develop ways of better enforcing good team work / good sportsmanship, and to punish unsporting ways of playing.
To intentionally sabotage other teammates efforts just so you can get a better score is antisocial, and it should be sanctioned. That is my view, and I strongly doubt I'm the only one who thinks this way. If everyone started playing that way, teams would frequently lose simply because of malicious actions / "sabotage" by their own members.
A good example of what I'm talking about are people in high-hp ships hiding out until the whole team is dead, only to then start a hopeless fight where they're crushed 7 or 8 vs 1.
It can happen that you eat someone's torps unintentionally (not saying it never happened to me, and I do apologize when it does happen), and I don't get mad over it if it happens to my torps because ppl are busy focusing on the fight, but it angers me when it's obvious that it's clearly intentional (if people speed up and manouver specifically to block your fire/torps just so they can launch theirs instead - and then miss on top of it).
I frequently get complimented by teammates... if I was the type of person who wants others to do work and farm effortlessly that wouldn't happen - in fact, I always happily sacrifice my ship if necessary / if it makes a difference that ensures team victory (eg eating torps for a ship we're supposed to escort/protect). I'm always polite and helpful to teammates, all I expect from others is not to be nasty. If I move in and take risks to help or even save my teammate, and they then thank me by sabotaging my actions intentionally, why play as a team at all?
If you want to stay out of radar range, you can't be fighting up front at the same time - and Chinese cruisers aren't fast & manoeuvrable enough to get away if you have multiple ships targeting you at close range. Chinese cruisers are thus best used defensively (which is why they have much longer torpedo range than close quarters brawler ships like German or French cruisers, which have stronger armour and do far more damage per shot, but have much shorter torpedo range. I personally prefer those.). I stand by that opinion.
You used the phrase "when you're in a torpedo boat" in your initial post.
The Pan-asian cruisers are NOT torpedo boats. They're smoke-farming cruisers. Torpedo boats are DDs like Shimakaze.
So when you're going "Oh I don't want to yolo into the enemy battleships, I'll get deleted when they spot me" - yes, you're right. No-one is expecting you to play a smoke-farming cruiser like an actual torpedo boat - Shimakaze with its <6km detection, for example.
Doesn't change the fact that torpedoes get less reliable the longer distance that they are fired from - because their spread increases, because enemies have more time to arbitrarily change speed and / or course, and other lesser reasons like it giving space for their teammates to screen the torps for them, or for their hydro to come off cooldown and get reactivated, etc.
Which should be one of the major clues that your "opinion" that you "stand by" - that pan-asian cruisers should be focused on torp-sniping the enemy - is very very wrongheaded. That combined with the fact that you have to be inside 12km radar range to use the Chumphon and Harbin torps anyway.
You really don't, though.
Because you don't want to get reported yourself for friendly-torping teammates; or having neglible battle impact because you're mispositioning and refusing to engage your targets effectively.
Which is exactly what would happen if you got your way and minor misplays like those you accidentally admitted to here resulted in punishments.
It's also entirely made up.
The number of deliberate griefers in the game is negligible; and ones that are deliberately timing their attacks just to deny you torp hits is even fewer.
What about someone in a stealthy smoke-farming cruiser being so scared of correctly managing radar threats that he puts friendly ships in between him and the enemy in order for them to accidentally eat his torps?
Is that not a good example?
Someone whose positioning is baiting the enemy into traversing their guns onto both him and the teammate; baiting torp salvoes onto him and his teammate; baiting the enemy into angling their armour against him and his teammate; baiting the enemy into angling against his panasian torps?
Someone who is putting themselves directly in teammates kiting spaces - so much so that their high-arcing Panasian guns are apparently hitting that teammate's ship instead of arcing gracefully onto the enemy?
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
People are bad, people misplay, that's fine.
Which is why it's fine that you don't seem to understand the mistakes that you accidentally admitted to here.
Are you listening to yourself? You say the guy lacks the judgement to land his own torp hits at really close range - but somehow has the judgement to perfectly synchronise his positioning and timing of his ship to intercept YOUR torps that he isn't as familiar with, has no control over, has no lead-indicator for, and had to figure out the timing of a minute in advance in order to get into position?
Really? Even though Chumphon's torps sail at nearly 60kts, and thus it is impossible for any ship in the game to "speed up" fast enough to intercept torps like that unless they were already moving to engage the enemy BEFORE you launched?
Unless their winrates for the panasian cruisers are somewhere between 65 and 75% (depending on the ship), I think you'd do better listening to me instead of them.
Good players get downvoted by bad players all the time - because bad players don't understand the game, and thus don't understand why and when good players are making match-winning decisions.
You can just farm down the enemy with your guns from outside radar range, and when that radar's gone you are free to quit using that as an excuse not to position properly and use your smokescreen effectively.
Chumphon's got the joint third highest cruiser base acceleration in its tier and joint third fastest rudder shift, fourth tightest turning circle (which is nearly identical to the tightest anyway). One of the most manoeuvrable ships in its tier.
Speedwise 32.5 knots is "alright enough for its tier, not spectacular".
And as enemies trying to push you have to juke to evade your torps, and thus bleed speed when they're turning and counter-shifting their rudder - your speed's fine too.
But this is beside the point, I already explained that the line prefer island camping closer to the enemy rather than open-water gunboating at extreme range.
Which is what St Louis and Roon want to be doing, not brawling 4 battleships from their ~8km torpedo ranges as you weirdly seem to imply.
How would you know? You're the guy who said some of the highest DPM and FPM in the tiers was poor gunpower; that some of the best acceleration, rudder shift and turning circles represented poor manouvreability; and that you can't smoke-farm radar ships from outside their radar range because you're too busy trying to torp them from 2km within their radar range.
Instead of constructing grandiose theories about an entire tech-tree line - one whose gunpower and manouvreability you don't seem to have straight in your head - you might fare better if you just concentrated on learning the fundamentals.
For the Panasian cruiser line, that means combined island camping and smoke-farming to maximise your battle impact safely;
that means using your torpedoes to prevent cruisers / BBs hard-pushing you (or teammates you are establishing a crossfire position with) while you're farming;
that means using your stealth to find strong positions from which you can maximise your impact on the enemy (ideally close enough to support your DDs safely by ambushing and stealth-walloping the enemy DDs)
- positions that aren't putting teammates directly between you and the enemy and thus baiting enemy gun traverse onto you, enemy torpedo salvoes in your direction; enemy armour angled against you; and also don't cause teammates to block either your artillery or your torps.
And like all smoke farmers (see RN light cruisers as another example, as well as mixed boat smoke DDs) - it means taking apart the obstacles to your smoke farming a piece at a time until you're free to gorge yourself while the enemy is helpless.
Really basic stuff that is far more important than insisting that you should be fixating on torpedo-sniping targets your teammates are already fighting with.