CV need defense against packs of attacking DD

[Beast of War]

With the continuous CV nerfs making reticules so large and the munitions spread in them so inaccurate you can only hit BB sized targets ( and even miss them with a lot of munitions ) it has become impossible to defend your CV against DD that found a gap in the lines ( usually the middle will get abandoned by teams ) and rush toward the CV. This is on top of some CV's aircraft not even having proper weapons against DD, even if they should hit as AP rockets and bombs, or slow torpedos is no way to deal with fast and manouevrable DD.

The only other weapon ( that would defend IRL ) that should defend < 10 km is the secondary guns but these have low range on most CV and spray around like drunk, not being able to even deter DD closing in for a even better torpedo aim. There are captain skills that are too costly to put into secondaries as it goes at the expense of aircraft skills, but these don't even work proper, as with them the secondaries still are incapable to deal with DD < 10 km.

Running away is not a viable option as when DD have visual on you, BB shells from far away follow.

Compare this lack of defense to the automatic responding anti-sub DC that actively destroys any sub that is spotted near the CV. That works very well.

I feel that the nerfs made DD players happy but were not thought well through what this would mean for CV defense against DD, as the nerfs handicapped planes for that as well.

And btw : i was playing in RTS CV times and when the new CV were released, so i experienced about 2 years of CV nerfs now. As happy still am with the game ( i play all classes ) this nerfing caused me to not use CV that much anymore, due to too much nerfing up to a point only frustration ramains. Bombs being spread all over large reticules cause frustration, as there is no skill involved missing all or most munitions. And ( rocket ) delay when you press fire ?? What relation does that have with RL ?

[Beast of War]

SuperCV - the jets specifically - are still fun. Targets have no time to react so lose a part of their nerfed CV protection. Firing delays will do them no good if the jet is already on top of them before they even know planes were coming. They are even fast on the minimap.

Also munitions fall narrow and stretch long when at full speed. And with that i can play with. You can actually hit DD with that with some reliability.

I really hope WG will take the game to modern times. Doing this with an F-4 or F-14 would be even better.

[Banzai]

So just ignoring all the feedback and comments and instead opting for "Jets are fun cos the target has no chance" instead. Also still clinging to the "CVs cant hit DDs unless given huge advantages like jets" after the "nerfs" despite literally everyone explaining why you are wrong?

Cool.

[Antearz]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Banzai:

So just ignoring all the feedback and comments and instead opting for "Jets are fun cos the target has no chance" instead. Also still clinging to the "CVs cant hit DDs unless given huge advantages like jets" after the "nerfs" despite literally everyone explaining why you are wrong?

Cool.

Uhm on the Topic.
While I generally dont like the Super CVs and Perform much better in Normal T10s.
The Jets from Super CVs are Very Fast and have Horrible Maneuverability.
Frankly. They are Horrible against DDs.
I am not even sure how anyone would even Target a DD in these unless the DD is stuck somewhere Hydroed or something and thus Permanently visible. At which point he is likely Dead anyways even if You dont Waste a Jet Bombardment on him.....
Because with the Jets Speed. Searching for a DD and then Bombing him after he is Spotted is Difficult. And the only Chance to even do it at all is usually if the DD is a Complete Potato which has Enabled AA etc.

So Yeah.... Lets just Say I dont believe a Word he just Said in that regard.


Offtopic.
And ?
Starting to Feel some Compassion for the Moderators on the Official Forum ? :)

[Banzai]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Antearz:

While I generally dont like the Super CVs and Perform much better in Normal T10s.
The Jets from Super CVs are Very Fast and have Horrible Maneuverability.
Frankly. They are Horrible against DDs.

Yeah agree tbh although the T11s are capable of racking up a lot more damage typically than a T10 will. I actually prefer to be in a T8 CV in T10 games since those are the matches where the better CV player will make a big difference for their team while the poor CVs will really struggle. The T11 jet bombs are quite dangerous against DDs anyway, but still not that relevant to the OP about wanting better secondarys. Hey ho.

[Rogue]

Just my 2 cents.

Played when they came out (RTS) played now, I had two CVs when playing RTS of course they were refunded when the changes happened as I was not playing at that time.

RTS had you in charge of the ship you were captain of not the AI.

All ship defences are now AI controlled apart from movement.

And the AI is Useless.

So the 3 CVs I have tried on this adventure in WOWs, have been sold the captains I had dismissed and will never be played again :D

[Beast of War]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Banzai:

So just ignoring all the feedback and comments and instead opting for "Jets are fun cos the target has no chance" instead. Also still clinging to the "CVs cant hit DDs unless given huge advantages like jets" after the "nerfs" despite literally everyone explaining why you are wrong?

Cool.

- You can hit DD but the chance on doing that is not dependent on skill but on RNG*
- When you hit a DD it barely scratches it's paint so killing it will take minutes of dedication**
- While planes can all do 100+ knots there are DD that hit 50+ knots and will be everywhere in a very short time as well.

* German razor fast torpedo's are still skill dependent so with those you can reliably kill DD. But that is one CV line with already powerful secondaries so least needs improved secondaries.
** DD with a skilled player can evade air attacks like an eel slivering in snot. CV cannot evade a DD attack so needs defense against it, and the planes are nerfed vs DD ( fact, it is described in old patch notes so cannot be denied )

I think the problem is most players here think a CV should be defenseless and DD piloted with low evasive player skills should be protected. DD are artificially protected a lot, as a BB salvo will not evaporate them as well while IRL a near miss would sink them, just as near miss HE bombs. And if that is so, no amount of reasoning can do any good.

[R[e]venge®-uk*]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Beast of War:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Banzai:

So just ignoring all the feedback and comments and instead opting for "Jets are fun cos the target has no chance" instead. Also still clinging to the "CVs cant hit DDs unless given huge advantages like jets" after the "nerfs" despite literally everyone explaining why you are wrong?

Cool.

*Snip*

I think the problem is most players here think a CV should be defenseless and DD piloted with low evasive player skills should be protected. DD are artificially protected a lot, as a BB salvo will not evaporate them as well while IRL a near miss would sink them, just as near miss HE bombs. And if that is so, no amount of reasoning can do any good.

I think the problem here is your not listening to the huge amount of detailed information you have been handed and are blindly not willing to see or admit you are completely in correct about so many many things..... Including as above ... this is an ARCADE Game!!

I see only 1 way we can Resolve this ... without it just going backwards and forwards and on and on and on ....

Upload a few Replays and show us how these "pesky" DD's are killing you? (this way people can advise you on your play and style)

if your serious just upload them on https://replayswows.com/ then link the vids back here and I can send them to Zeri to get feedback from one of the best CV Mains we have!

Good Luck!

[MrTigg]

Umm, it's called the REST OF THE TEAM! lol

[Banzai]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Beast of War:

- You can hit DD but the chance on doing that is not dependent on skill but on RNG*
- When you hit a DD it barely scratches it's paint so killing it will take minutes of dedication**

German razor fast torpedo's are still skill dependent so with those you can reliably kill DD. But that is one CV line with already powerful secondaries so least needs improved secondaries.

Wont deal with all of what you posted since we have done so many times during the thread,

However;

Hitting a DD is very much dependant on skill and perfectly possible (as evidenced by the fact literally everyone who knows CVs says you are wrong here). There is a small RNG element but the majority is knowing what you are doing.

Sinking a DD in the first couple of minutes of the match is "scratching the paint"? Again, you are wrong here. Just because you struggle doesnt mean CV players in general struggle. You have also stated that you dont bother trying (because its hard) so you are hardly an authority on the subject, all while you ignore the huge number of people who actually do know what they are talking about patiently explaining why you are incorrect.

Of all the nations carriers, German CVs arguably have the weakest plane options against DDs and yet can still be effective if the person playing it knows what they are doing. Bit of a theme. I actually mentioned this example because if a German CV can do it then literally ANY CV can do it. Its not about secondarys if you deal with the threat early (as has been mentioned ad nauseum).

Opprinnelig skrevet av Beast of War:

I think the problem is most players here think a CV should be defenseless and DD piloted with low evasive player skills should be protected. DD are artificially protected a lot,

I think the problem is you are incapable of reading any of the responses you have had over the last 8 pages. CVs are far from defenceless against DDs. CVs sink DDs early game all the time (people have even given examples). CVs are by far the biggest threat to DDs. If the DD managed to get to gun range of the carrier then well done him, although the CV messed up for this to happen. All this has been explained over and over again and yet after 8 pages you are still repeating the same stuff you posted on page 1.

To say that DDs are "artificially protected" is just laughable, especially from the point of view of a carrier player who can ruin any DDs game with impunity if they choose to. The fact you choose not to cos its "hard and frustrating" doesnt mean DDs have an easy time (apart from in matches against you it seems).

Honestly feels like you are trolling at this point. Eight pages and its as if you have read nothing that has been posted in response to your OP and the subsequent replies.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Revenge®-uk*:

I think the problem here is your not listening to the huge amount of detailed information you have been handed and are blindly not willing to see or admit you are completely incorrect

This.

[Antearz]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Beast of War:

I think the problem is most players here think a CV should be defenseless and DD piloted with low evasive player skills should be protected. DD are artificially protected a lot, as a BB salvo will not evaporate them as well while IRL a near miss would sink them, just as near miss HE bombs. And if that is so, no amount of reasoning can do any good.

Nope.
The Problem is that You keep trying to Think of this Game as some sort of Realistic Simulator.

Therefore it seems that in Your Mind. You absolutely Refuse to Accept the Idea that this is an Arcade Game and that all Ships are Supposed to be Balanced in a Way which Results in 1 Player being worth 1 Player regardless of what Ship he is using.
Which means in the Game the Power Balance is fully on Purpose Set in a Way that a DD can be just as Powerful as a CV or any other Ship.
With this Balance Generally being somewhat Asymetrical. So DDs are Weaker in a Direct Fight vs a BB but are much Stronger in a Sneak Attack etc.

You instead try to Apply your Interpretation of Reality onto this.
And therefore in your Eyes. A DD is a Small Escort Vessel that Should easily be Destroyed by a CVs Airstrikes and should also not be Capable of Fighting a CV in an Artillery Duel as the CVs Defensive Artillery should easily be able to Destroy it.
(Now. Of course as I explained. You also Conveniently Ignore alot of the Realism Parts. Like that a CV would not be able to Launch Planes like this. Or that a Single HE Shell hitting onto the Deck of a CV which is Loading Planes would turn the entire CV into a Firestorm etc.)
But this effectively leads to a completely Screwed Viewpoint of Yours where the CV should easily be Capable of Destroying Several "lesser" Ships each Match. And should Generally not be easily Destroyed by such lesser Ships.

But thats just not how the Game Works.
The Game is not Based on Realism. Its an Arcade Game.
In this Game a DD is just as Strong as a CV. And this is in Purpose. Its not a Bug.
CVs are NOT supposed to be the Strongest Ship in the Game. Much less are they Supposed to be so Strong that they can easily Destroy several other Ships by default.

Instead like any other Ship. Wether You win or lose a Battle against ONE SINGLE other Ship. Is supposed to be Decided by Players Skill and Situation. As well as the Teams Support on both sides. Entirely Regardless of which Ships both Players are using :)

That means. In the Game. It is Perfectly Normal that ONE SINGLE DD. Can Kill a CV if the DD Player is simply more Skilled than the CV Player.
And that is Exactly how it works right now.
Which is why People keep telling You. That this is an L2P Issue on your Side. And that if You want to do Better. You have to Learn how use the CV Properly and how to Fight DDs etc.

[Spork.monkey]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Beast of War:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Banzai:

So just ignoring all the feedback and comments and instead opting for "Jets are fun cos the target has no chance" instead. Also still clinging to the "CVs cant hit DDs unless given huge advantages like jets" after the "nerfs" despite literally everyone explaining why you are wrong?

Cool.

- You can hit DD but the chance on doing that is not dependent on skill but on RNG*
- When you hit a DD it barely scratches it's paint so killing it will take minutes of dedication**
- While planes can all do 100+ knots there are DD that hit 50+ knots and will be everywhere in a very short time as well.

* German razor fast torpedo's are still skill dependent so with those you can reliably kill DD. But that is one CV line with already powerful secondaries so least needs improved secondaries.
** DD with a skilled player can evade air attacks like an eel slivering in snot. CV cannot evade a DD attack so needs defense against it, and the planes are nerfed vs DD ( fact, it is described in old patch notes so cannot be denied )

I think the problem is most players here think a CV should be defenseless and DD piloted with low evasive player skills should be protected. DD are artificially protected a lot, as a BB salvo will not evaporate them as well while IRL a near miss would sink them, just as near miss HE bombs. And if that is so, no amount of reasoning can do any good.

I can hit dds extremely consistently in both the kaga and lexington. Not being able to is either a skill or ship choice issue. Not every cv is going to be able to counter dds as well as others

[Spork.monkey]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Beast of War:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Banzai:

So just ignoring all the feedback and comments and instead opting for "Jets are fun cos the target has no chance" instead. Also still clinging to the "CVs cant hit DDs unless given huge advantages like jets" after the "nerfs" despite literally everyone explaining why you are wrong?

Cool.

- You can hit DD but the chance on doing that is not dependent on skill but on RNG*
- When you hit a DD it barely scratches it's paint so killing it will take minutes of dedication**
- While planes can all do 100+ knots there are DD that hit 50+ knots and will be everywhere in a very short time as well.

* German razor fast torpedo's are still skill dependent so with those you can reliably kill DD. But that is one CV line with already powerful secondaries so least needs improved secondaries.
** DD with a skilled player can evade air attacks like an eel slivering in snot. CV cannot evade a DD attack so needs defense against it, and the planes are nerfed vs DD ( fact, it is described in old patch notes so cannot be denied )

I think the problem is most players here think a CV should be defenseless and DD piloted with low evasive player skills should be protected. DD are artificially protected a lot, as a BB salvo will not evaporate them as well while IRL a near miss would sink them, just as near miss HE bombs. And if that is so, no amount of reasoning can do any good.

Stop talking about realism. If the game was realistic cvs would be the only relevant class and you'd almost never shoot at another ship

[Spork.monkey]

If a dd is by some miracle able to breakthrough enemy lines and get within torpedo range they deserve the kill too. There's so many options to prevent this from happening that you have to seriously mess up for it to happen. DD's have to contend against radar, planes, and sneakier faster dds. It isnt some cakewalk to sneak up on a cv on the other side of the map

[Banzai]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Spork.monkey:

If a dd is by some miracle able to breakthrough enemy lines and get within torpedo range they deserve the kill too. There's so many options to prevent this from happening that you have to seriously mess up for it to happen. DD's have to contend against radar, planes, and sneakier faster dds. It isnt some cakewalk to sneak up on a cv on the other side of the map

Yeah we have all explained this many times during the thread. The fact remains that the DD is at a disadvantage to the CV for at least 90% of the time that it spends trying to get within range, so the OP repeatedly saying that "CVs are defenceless against DDs" is at best wilful ignorance since its the other way around for the vast majority of the time.

If it manages to get there then even at that point the CV has a great chance due to being able to rotate strikes on close range targets very quickly due to almost no travel time for the planes. If they DD still gets to sink the CV then it was definitely due to the CV being bad and nothing to do with some game balance problem.

But as mentioned, all this has been explained at length over 8 pages and the OP is still claiming he needs better secondarys despite being in a class that can spot and harass a DD anywhere on the map and in semi competent hands have a good chance of sinking them too.

Shrug.

Edit:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Beast of War:

In DD i can count the times i was sunk by direct CV fire on 1 hand since the release of non-RTS CV

Oh and quickly back to this ^

Played three CV games this afternoon. Sunk a DD in each one (plus a sub in one of them as well), and yet you claim that since the rework this is incredibly rare. You really are gaining some hefty credibility issues.

[Ace42]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Revenge®-uk*:

if your serious just upload them on https://replayswows.com/ then link the vids back here and I can send them to Zeri to get feedback from one of the best CV Mains we have!

I linked to a vid that (I think it's pretty clear) is him earlier in the thread.
Just ignored a Cossack all game who rofl-stomped and top-scored, and ended up killing him.