Co-op Battle vs Randon Battle

[Whintosser]

I guess the best way to begin this discussion is by saying you can't stay in Co-op forever, yet it's extremely impossible to get through a game of Random, which means the grinding process is going to take basically forever to complete (even with a premium account or a premium ship), especially in Co-op. I think many people, such as myself, would love to stay involved with World of Warships but simply find that they can't because it's much too time-consuming and the rewards are far and few between. You have two kinds of people playing this game: those being extremely good and extremely bad. There are no in-betweens at all. I think one of the things WoW could have changed was the number of enemy ships to be killed during a co-op battle. Increase the number to make the game more enjoyable. It's dreadful when you have 2 to 3 destroyers in one game and nobody else stands a chance of getting kills because the destroyers eliminate them all, which amounts to a low grinding process for cruisers, battleships and carriers. So basically, in the end, I think many people decide to eventually throw the towel in, which is sad because it's a nice game but a frustrating game. Basically, nothing is going to change, and I know that, and I'll just be another causality who flew the coop, and another will replace me until they decide they've had enough. You think they would want to keep players rather them fall off the face of the earth, and many have. I look at some of the clan rosters and many of the players haven't been signed on for over 50 days and that's not good. It's actually quite sad. Anyway, I've probably played my last game and it's too bad. As Banzai the forum manager has said previously, (there are literally 100s of 1000s of other games on Steam you could try instead) and many are going to do just that, try those 100s of 1000s of games on Steam and when and if a player finds one, that will leave World of Warships without anyone to purchase their goods. I hope this game takes some serious advice from the players and makes some changes because one day you won't have a very large player base left. Thank you.

[Jackson]

Coop: For players who want to win all the time (nothing wrong with that), don't want a strong challenge or want a more relaxing approach and/or want to get through missions really fast - depending on the mission.

Random: Players who want a challenge, want to play against other players and/or want better game rewards.

[Banzai]

Hi,

Coop is indeed a damage race and that certainly favours playing fast high dps ships. A battleship for example will be lucky to get more than a couple of volleys off during a match.

What you might find more to your liking is trying asymmetrical battles which is still PvE but the players are outnumbered by lower tier bots. Its a mode thats much more suited to battleships and is a bit more challenging than normal coop.

You also have operations which again have the potential for a LOT of kills during the scripted scenarios plus the rewards are a lot better than coop.

At the end of the day the game is however based around PvP so playing randoms is the place to get the most out of WoWs.

Might be worth trying aysm and operations before you throw the towel in anyway :)

Best wishes regardless.

[~T~D~]

Originally posted by Whintosser:

I guess the best way to begin this discussion is by saying you can't stay in Co-op forever, yet it's extremely impossible to get through a game of Random, which means the grinding process is going to take basically forever to complete (even with a premium account or a premium ship), especially in Co-op. I think many people, such as myself, would love to stay involved with World of Warships but simply find that they can't because it's much too time-consuming and the rewards are far and few between. You have two kinds of people playing this game: those being extremely good and extremely bad. There are no in-betweens at all. I think one of the things WoW could have changed was the number of enemy ships to be killed during a co-op battle. Increase the number to make the game more enjoyable. It's dreadful when you have 2 to 3 destroyers in one game and nobody else stands a chance of getting kills because the destroyers eliminate them all, which amounts to a low grinding process for cruisers, battleships and carriers. So basically, in the end, I think many people decide to eventually throw the towel in, which is sad because it's a nice game but a frustrating game. Basically, nothing is going to change, and I know that, and I'll just be another causality who flew the coop, and another will replace me until they decide they've had enough. You think they would want to keep players rather them fall off the face of the earth, and many have. I look at some of the clan rosters and many of the players haven't been signed on for over 50 days and that's not good. It's actually quite sad. Anyway, I've probably played my last game and it's too bad. As Banzai the forum manager has said previously, (there are literally 100s of 1000s of other games on Steam you could try instead) and many are going to do just that, try those 100s of 1000s of games on Steam and when and if a player finds one, that will leave World of Warships without anyone to purchase their goods. I hope this game takes some serious advice from the players and makes some changes because one day you won't have a very large player base left. Thank you.

I agree, they need to do some changes or see people quitting or never start.

One captain from lvl 20 to 21 is 700000 exp

Calculate how many hours that would take, yet alone change one capt that have at 21.

Same with techtree grinding, basicly years. maybe even 10 years if you never go premium.

[Jackson]

Originally posted by ~T~D~:

Originally posted by Whintosser:

I guess the best way to begin this discussion is by saying you can't stay in Co-op forever, yet it's extremely impossible to get through a game of Random, which means the grinding process is going to take basically forever to complete (even with a premium account or a premium ship), especially in Co-op. I think many people, such as myself, would love to stay involved with World of Warships but simply find that they can't because it's much too time-consuming and the rewards are far and few between. You have two kinds of people playing this game: those being extremely good and extremely bad. There are no in-betweens at all. I think one of the things WoW could have changed was the number of enemy ships to be killed during a co-op battle. Increase the number to make the game more enjoyable. It's dreadful when you have 2 to 3 destroyers in one game and nobody else stands a chance of getting kills because the destroyers eliminate them all, which amounts to a low grinding process for cruisers, battleships and carriers. So basically, in the end, I think many people decide to eventually throw the towel in, which is sad because it's a nice game but a frustrating game. Basically, nothing is going to change, and I know that, and I'll just be another causality who flew the coop, and another will replace me until they decide they've had enough. You think they would want to keep players rather them fall off the face of the earth, and many have. I look at some of the clan rosters and many of the players haven't been signed on for over 50 days and that's not good. It's actually quite sad. Anyway, I've probably played my last game and it's too bad. As Banzai the forum manager has said previously, (there are literally 100s of 1000s of other games on Steam you could try instead) and many are going to do just that, try those 100s of 1000s of games on Steam and when and if a player finds one, that will leave World of Warships without anyone to purchase their goods. I hope this game takes some serious advice from the players and makes some changes because one day you won't have a very large player base left. Thank you.

I agree, they need to do some changes or see people quitting or never start.

One captain from lvl 20 to 21 is 700000 exp

Calculate how many hours that would take, yet alone change one capt that have at 21.

Same with techtree grinding, basicly years. maybe even 10 years if you never go premium.

Can't tell you how many hours it takes, but I have a bunch of them at 21. It does take some time. Once you get one to 21 though, you just keep playing that and then use his xp to boost other captains. Very soon you never need to play below the 10 or 14 pt threshold again.

[Ace42]

Originally posted by Whintosser:

You have two kinds of people playing this game: those being extremely good and extremely bad.

Yes, but I think the thing most players miss is how small the performance gap between being extremely bad and being quite good is.

The game really isn't as hard as new / bad players deliberately make it for themselves.

Most of the mistakes that get players wrecked are pretty big, pretty obvious, and can be identified and rectified very quickly.

Upload a replay file that the game auto generates to ReplaysWoWS.com; or use OBS (free on Steam) to capture a video and upload it to YouTube / wherever; and create a thread here with a link asking for feedback.

Guarantee that by eliminating defects in your play one-at-a-time you'll have a far more positive experience very quickly.

If you just don't want to play PvP - yeah you're gonna be disappointed. This is a PvP game.

But it does have Operations as a PvE game-mode that has good rewards if you play well; and Asymmetric is currently a temporary game-mode that does exactly what you describe.

Tiers 4&5 Randoms can be a ghost town depending on your region and time-of-day, which end up being similar to bot-matches anyway, but with full rewards - and once you're at T6 can do Ops.

Originally posted by ~T~D~:

One captain from lvl 20 to 21 is 700000 exp
Calculate how many hours that would take, yet alone change one capt that have at 21.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single build in the game that requires a maxed out commander to be viable.

Most ships can get a viable build at *10pts* which is easier than ever to achieve thanks to the grind acceleration; let alone the game now giving out 10 and 12pt commanders all the time as a matter-of-course.

Even the most point-hungry builds (secondary spec, for example) are only 17pt - so 2 levels below the old commander-cap, and easier than ever to grind out thanks to the grind acceleration.

But don't let the grind being easier than ever get in the way of you <checks notes> whining about the grind being unfair.

[Bovril Brigadier]

Originally posted by Whintosser:

I think one of the things WoW could have changed was the number of enemy ships to be killed during a co-op battle. Increase the number to make the game more enjoyable.

Mean that's kind of what Operations and Asymmetrical Battles are. Problem with those modes you aren't able to join them till tier VI which by the time someone is able to experience said missions they are likely to have become bored. Plus Asymmetrical Battles have some outright terrible map choices in rotation so can be very hit and miss.

The game definitely ignores lower tiers at its own peril as there isn't really a hook early on. Random Battles are honestly boring as hell till you get to about tier VIII and experiencing the more fun gamemodes especially with Shuffle though if you are burnt out before then can see why wouldn't want to grind further to see what this game has to offer. Till you get to a higher tier you're just experiencing the same repetitive maps and modes over and over.

[Jackson]

Originally posted by Bovril Brigadier:

Originally posted by Whintosser:

I think one of the things WoW could have changed was the number of enemy ships to be killed during a co-op battle. Increase the number to make the game more enjoyable.

Mean that's kind of what Operations and Asymmetrical Battles are. Problem with those modes you aren't able to join them till tier VI which by the time someone is able to experience said missions they are likely to have become bored. Plus Asymmetrical Battles have some outright terrible map choices in rotation so can be very hit and miss.

The game definitely ignores lower tiers at its own peril as there isn't really a hook early on. Random Battles are honestly boring as hell till you get to about tier VIII and experiencing the more fun gamemodes especially with Shuffle though if you are burnt out before then can see why wouldn't want to grind further to see what this game has to offer. Till you get to a higher tier you're just experiencing the same repetitive maps and modes over and over.

I have to disagree here. Random battles at low tier are a blessing since there's so many bots. You can learn the game while not being completely owned by experienced players, all while still getting the same xp/credits you normally get from random. It would get a bit boring once your skill level comes up, but it also only takes a very short time to get to tier 5 where you are in normal matchmaking with other people.

WG doesn't want to encourage too much low level play because then no new players would stick around at all. It's one way World of Warships differentiated from World of Tanks. At least when it rolled out years ago, WoT had no detractors from playing low tier so there were always lots of "Seal clubbers" playing there just to beat on the new players.

[Whintosser]

I have to disagree here. Random battles at low tier are a blessing since there's so many bots. You can learn the game while not being completely owned by experienced players, all while still getting the same xp/credits you normally get from random. It would get a bit boring once your skill level comes up, but it also only takes a very short time to get to tier 5 where you are in normal matchmaking with other people.

WG doesn't want to encourage too much low level play because then no new players would stick around at all. It's one way World of Warships differentiated from World of Tanks. At least when it rolled out years ago, WoT had no detractors from playing low tier so there were always lots of "Seal clubbers" playing there just to beat on the new players.


I'm not quite sure how original posts are boxed, so I just coped and pasted your reply instead.

I'm playing the Nicholas right now in Random and I'm being completely wiped out every single game within the first 5 to 10 minutes and that's exaggerating it a bit. There have been no bots to speak of but highly skilled players instead. It will take module building points plus 35,500 research points to make it to the Farragut. I know for sure it will be many months of playing in Co-op to even be able to achieve that. And when entering a game of Random I'm getting completely wiped out before achieving any research points. I'm considered a new player, and I probably won't be playing this game within the next few months because I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I won't dare purchase any premium ships of any kind and why would I. To be stuck in Co-op playing it for the duration? I find that after you reach 5 under any part of the tech tree the game becomes extremely frustrating and is no longer any fun. You speak of seal clubbers, and I have encountered many of them throughout my gaming experiences, but they are in World of Warships also not just World of Tanks.

I understand that Wargaming doesn't want to encourage too much low-level play, but little do they know they are losing many players anyway because many do prefer Co-op and find a great deal of enjoyment playing it and that's why I felt they should add more ship bots like they do in Asymmetric Battles. I think what War Gaming is thinking about is they will have no players in Random if they make Co-op to enjoyable and relaxing. Then the high tier random players will have nobody to slaughter on a daily basis. I think that's what is really going on here. I'm going to be blunt about something. I have no plans on entering Random battles (although I've entered a few) and getting completely obliterated in every single match that I start and I'm sure many players feel the same way as me. Instead of players finding enjoyment in the game and that goes for me also, we will eventually move on to something else and how exactly does that benefit Wargaming. It doesn't. No premium accounts will be purchased and no premium ships. All that will exist is a nickname that someone created and left behind and it is becoming a cycle already. The only reason I'm able to play in Asymmetric battles is because Wargaming was nice enough to Gift me a submarine for the Holidays and you know something. That's the only battle type I am enjoying. Why because it's all bots and quite a few of them which I think is great. You would think Wargaming would want their players to stay instead of basically forcing them into Random battles which many don't even want PLUS some of the players are extremely TOXIC. The toxicity doesn't faze me as much because I ignore most of the players and their criticism.

You may think it's boring playing bots Jackson, but many players don't. They play this game to relax not to become more stressed out than life itself. And Bovril Brigadier you are absolutely right about Operations and Asymmetrical Battles. You can't join them until you gain a high tier ship which many are unable to do. In my case it was gifted to me around the holidays, and I chose a Submarine which I play fairly well with in Asymmetrical battles but once I enter Random battles I absolutely suck, and the Random players don't hold back letting me know that either. So, tell me, how can anyone enjoy a game when you know Wargaming is basically forcing a player into Random battles when they don't want to be there. And what they are using for leverage is a low amount of XP received each time you finish up a game in Co-op battles. That is when every single player who signed up for World of Warships has second thoughts of continuing the game unless that is they are diehard fanatics and trust me they do exist. Most of us though would rather play bots and hone our skills at a slower pace but Wargaming is not allowing that and using a bit of reverse psychology by giving us less XP during Co-op games to boot us over into Random. It's not going to work because many will eventually leave the game. What they should do is actually start catering to different players and make the game more appealing. Create various operation modes against bots for low tier players who in time move up the ladder to higher tiers. Some of us play this game just to relax after a hard day's work and I'll speak for myself. I enjoy playing ship bots and I wish there were more of them per game. I know what Wargaming is trying to do but it's a slow drip, drip backfiring and players will in time leave and it's too bad. It really is a fun game. I am someone who used to enjoy going to Nathan's and playing Submarine Arcade Seawolf back in the day so for me, World of Warships is a treat but not so much anymore until some things change. (Fingers Crossed)

[Banzai]

I will try and work through your wall of text response later, but just as a suggestion for making posts more readable its best to use some paragraph breaks.

If you wish to quote someone then just click the little arrow in the top right of the post (leftmost of the three buttons) and the quote will appear boxed in to separate it from your text.

[Ace42]

Originally posted by Whintosser:

I'm playing the Nicholas right now in Random and I'm being completely wiped out every single game within the first 5 to 10 minutes and that's exaggerating it a bit.

The USN boats are a bit of a pain at the low tiers because they're gunboats, whereas the line slowly turns into torp-focused mixed boats.
Nicholas has highest HE DPM in its tier apart from Hill (near identical premium), so will win pretty much all same-tier DD trades if you're not eating unnecessary damage from their teammates (don't waste time giving the enemy time to get into position at the start of matches).

Only its successor (Farragut) and Aigle out-DPM it at T6, but the trades get a bit murkier thanks to gimmicks starting to get introduced to a greater extent then.
There's several T7s it will comfortably outgun.

Can see me in the comparable T5 Hill here:
https://youtu.be/HTRLIB85pKw

More than even the T7+ ships in the line, it's a smoke-farmer - so you need to both understand the match-ups you face *and* have an understanding of how to make best use of smokescreens.

For DDs the rule of thumb is: If you outspot them, they outgun you, and vice versa.
The exceptions to these rules are "if they outspot and outgun you, you've got a gimmick to generate an advantage".

It's worth new players grabbing a side-panel mod (BestOfBaddest is what I'd recommend, I think it's on official Modstation, and is deffo in Aslain's) that shows base concealment for DDs so you can quickly figure out what enemy DDs you can outspot. Remember that a 10pt captain with Concealment Expert is mandatory on nearly all DDs.

You can use control point perimeters as early-warning systems. If you position so that your detection radius is a bit inside the opposite edge of a control point, you'll see the enemy start capping the control point before they push into your detection radius - giving you plenty of time to mentally prepare for the trade.

So for Nicholas you want to be out-spotting T7 gun-/mixed-boats whilst staying undetected so your team can counter them; or nuking down torpedo boats using your gunpower quickly.
You can work close-range torps in potentially to help shape the enemy DD's angles or catch them out (or to clear enemy smokescreens if they panic and try to go dark).

If a teammate (CV, friendly DD, whoever) can provide vision of any enemy DD, you can smoke up and farm them, but you need to be aware of the risk of your smokescreen getting counter-torped.

Once the DD threats are eliminated, you want to provide vision of island campers - and when there's not torpedo / radar threats and your Smokescreen is available, if a teammate is granting you vision, you smoke up and farm farm farm those fires from as close as safely possible.

Smokescreen play requires:
Nothing that can hard push you. Usually that means no DDs left who can use your smokescreen and thus your blindness to sneak up on you, but could be anything that isn't scared of your torps (typically because they have hydro).
Nothing that can torp you Usually that means no DDs in the same way as above; but can also mean stealthy cruisers with good torp ranges, etc.
Nothing that can radar you Not a big issue at T5, but learning radar ranges and playing around them is crucial DD skill as you go up the tiers and start seeing more ships with radar. Again, a side-panel mod can list all the radar ranges you see in the game.
Good positioning You need to be close enough that you actually get a decent number of shells on target, and that won't see the enemy just slip away before you achieve anything; you need to be in a position that doesn't blind your teammates and thus yourself; you need to be in a position that won't get hard-pushed; you need to be in a position that you can potentially get out of if things start to go wrong.

These things all apply to smokescreen cruisers too.

Nicholas can also island-camp or traverse / reload grief ships where appropriate too to maintain battle impact whilst smokescreen is down.

[Banzai]

Lot of good advice above. Have to say that there will be plenty of other players in your random games that are just as new as you. If you are consistently dying very early in the match then you are making some fundamental mistakes (possibly due to trying to play randoms like coop).

Make sure you are as stealthy as possible via skills etc and when approaching a flag, slow down before you get there. If you are travelling at 1/4 speed then your smoke will pretty much instantly stealth you. Reversing onto a flag works in much the same way. Early in a match, spotting is more important than damage so even if someone starts shooting you its sometimes best to not shoot back and just stealth out. Meanwhile your opponent will still be visible to your team.

Finally always try and learn from your mistakes. If something gets you sunk in one game, then avoid that in the next :)

Good luck.

[arjensmit79]

The difference between playing well and playing poorly for me is map awareness. And i think i'm not at all alone in that. All those things Ace writes aren't so complicated, but you need to know wtf is going on.

Some days for whatever reason, maybe too little sleep or something, i don't have it. Like today. I was just in cap with my DD and got bumrushed by some german BB. I see other shells coming at it and i shoot at it myself. So i stay put in my smoke and assume it will die before it gets me in hydro. But then i die and look at the map to see the only 2 allied ships that could have been shooting at it were moving away and behind an island. If i had not been tunnelvisioned on the screen and aware of the mini map, i would have gotten out. And thats how it always is when things are going bad. Lack of map awareness. On the good days i am aware of what happens on the map and usually live till the end of the game.

So ye for now i'll go back to the game that kept me awake till 6AM last night. :p

[Banzai]

Yeah you are spot on. Aiming is pretty easy. Angling to enemy fire is pretty easy. Correct positioning and adapting that position to the flow of the battle is what separates the good from the bad.

[R[e]venge®-uk*]

Originally posted by Banzai:

Yeah you are spot on. Aiming is pretty easy. Angling to enemy fire is pretty easy. Correct positioning and adapting that position to the flow of the battle is what separates the good from the bad.

I would say the KEY things are
1. Know your Ship
2. Know your Enemy
3. Correct Ammo Choice
4. Position on the map to create angles and make the enemy mess up while staying safe
5. Read the mini map and how you need to respond to a falling flank or smash yours asap to help out (This is THE hardest thing)

Do this and you will be a 55%+ player! Fail on 5 and you'll still be a 50%+ player!

[christof]

Just as an addendum: When people mention low-tier play and the bots within, they are talking about tiers I to IV. V and above, you enter the mid-tiers.