Z-42 buffs?

[bambuce]

Are they gonna leave the Z-42 like is now or they gonna buff it at some point, is worse in EVRYTING than the Georg Hoffmann and both cost steel, to the point that i think the Z-42 should be put in tier 9

[Ace42]

Originally posted by bambuce:

Are they gonna leave the Z-42 like is now or they gonna buff it at some point, is worse in EVRYTING than the Georg Hoffmann

Z-42's DPM for both AP and HE is like 33% higher than Hoffman's, with higher fires-per-minute. The improved fuse time and low arming threshold means you get to use that awesome AP against other DDs if they don't angle - only Lushun, Marceau and Haragumo have better AP DPM in that tier. Lushun and Marceau have higher arming thresholds and thus are more prone to overpens too.

Torps are generally worse, but tighter spreads.

Short-burst smoke generators are a lateral alternative - but one that gives you more frequent on-demand disengage, and cuts down on vulnerability-due-to-cooldown.

Z-42's got slightly better manouvreability thanks to quicker rudder shift and much tighter turning circle; although that's partially offset by Hoffman's slightly better acceleration and slightly better top speed.

Z-42's got marginally better concealment - and it's at a position where every 100m feels especially important - but the difference is slight enough to not be decisive in the vast majority of circumstances.

[Jaynoble55]

Originally posted by Ace42:

Originally posted by bambuce:

Are they gonna leave the Z-42 like is now or they gonna buff it at some point, is worse in EVRYTING than the Georg Hoffmann

Z-42's DPM for both AP and HE is like 33% higher than Hoffman's, with higher fires-per-minute. The improved fuse time and low arming threshold means you get to use that awesome AP against other DDs if they don't angle - only Lushun, Marceau and Haragumo have better AP DPM in that tier. Lushun and Marceau have higher arming thresholds and thus are more prone to overpens too.

Torps are generally worse, but tighter spreads.

Short-burst smoke generators are a lateral alternative - but one that gives you more frequent on-demand disengage, and cuts down on vulnerability-due-to-cooldown.

Z-42's got slightly better manouvreability thanks to quicker rudder shift and much tighter turning circle; although that's partially offset by Hoffman's slightly better acceleration and slightly better top speed.

Z-42's got marginally better concealment - and it's at a position where every 100m feels especially important - but the difference is slight enough to not be decisive in the vast majority of circumstances.

I have not played the z-42. But I do play my hoff. I do not think you can compare 42 and hoff. A far better comp is hoff vs elbing. I feel hoff is better than Elbing but Elbs has its advantages (longer range, if your gonna cruiser hunt from distance). Hoff feels like more of a destroyer than Elb. So if anything, ask for Elb buffs.

Edit, Im not addressing you Ace, but the OP. No idea why I cliped your post to reply. Its still early for me :(

[bambuce]

Originally posted by Ace42:

Originally posted by bambuce:

Are they gonna leave the Z-42 like is now or they gonna buff it at some point, is worse in EVRYTING than the Georg Hoffmann

Z-42's DPM for both AP and HE is like 33% higher than Hoffman's, with higher fires-per-minute. The improved fuse time and low arming threshold means you get to use that awesome AP against other DDs if they don't angle - only Lushun, Marceau and Haragumo have better AP DPM in that tier. Lushun and Marceau have higher arming thresholds and thus are more prone to overpens too.

Torps are generally worse, but tighter spreads.

Short-burst smoke generators are a lateral alternative - but one that gives you more frequent on-demand disengage, and cuts down on vulnerability-due-to-cooldown.

Z-42's got slightly better manouvreability thanks to quicker rudder shift and much tighter turning circle; although that's partially offset by Hoffman's slightly better acceleration and slightly better top speed.

Z-42's got marginally better concealment - and it's at a position where every 100m feels especially important - but the difference is slight enough to not be decisive in the vast majority of circumstances.

The improved fuse time aint gonna do much when you have standar ricochet angles of 45-60º, maybe if you fighting against someone who has negative reaction and sails full broadside to you yeah but if is slightly smarter and turn away instantly you gonna get 2 salvos and the rest are gonna be bounces...

Still, to this day i dont undertand who thinks is a good idea to shot a DD in a DD with AP when HE is lirerally broken, you break modules, engime, rudder and if he already has his dmg com used and you set him on fire is gonna ad 2km of spot range which is gonna allow you to leave your smoke and keep him spoted for you team if goes unpoted or has no smoke. Theres a few DDs that you have to use AP since they have 25 or 50mm plates but thyre not very popular.

And the torpedos... bruh is 2x4 torps with 100 seconds reload and 10 km range, worse than tech tree Z-52 and a joke compares to hoffmann 2x5 with 80 seconds reload and 12 km range.

[Ace42]

Originally posted by bambuce:

The improved fuse time aint gonna do much when you have standar ricochet angles of 45-60º, maybe if you fighting against someone who has negative reaction and sails full broadside to you

If you position properly, he has to choose between showing broadside to either you or your teammates. If he's going broadside to teammates, he's probably gonna catch at least a few strays even if your teammates are incompetent or unlucky. Which is doing your job for you.

if is slightly smarter and turn away instantly you gonna get 2 salvos and the rest are gonna be bounces.

So you just swap to HE at that point once you've given yourself a headstart farming him with the AP? While he eats salvoes into his full broadside from your team?

Still, to this day i dont undertand who thinks is a good idea to shot a DD in a DD with AP when HE is lirerally broken,

Anyone who knows what the difference in DPM is between the munitions for various ships, and thus knows that the German lines tend to have infinitely better AP DPM than HE DPM?

In Z-42's case, AP DPM is 2x HE DPM. It goes from 4th best in tier for AP DPM, to 17th best in tier for HE DPM.

And AP can knock out modules with direct hits too, btw - although it's far more picky about where detonations happen, and won't light fires, obv.

But as fires are far less valuable on a DD you're in the process of fighting than just getting on with murdering them with your excellent AP DPM, that's not really an issue. A fire's not equal to doubling up your DPM; nor is proccing their last stand.

And the torpedos...

Aren't terrible for a gun-focused mixed boat?

Seriously, no wonder you think Z-42 is a downgrade if you outright refuse to use its strengths.

[Virtual Ocean Horizon]

if you're going to buff a high tier german dd buff z44, that thing is in the top worst ships in the game

t7 hull and guns with 5x2 fast reloading t6 torps, ew. No interesting consumables. but what takes the cake is the narrow spread is basically a wide spread of any other nation. and this thing is at t9 btw

[arjensmit79]

Last night i fought a Hoffman with my kitakaze. I don't know about fuze times etc, i only know not to give broadside to german DD's. Idiot kept firing AP and i beat him with only 25% of my HP lost. (no team mates involved on either side)

If HE is that bad that its not a good option as ACE seems to indicate, then ehm, its imo a suck DD. A DD that cant fight other DD's unless they are stupid is a suck DD.

[Jackson]

Originally posted by bambuce:

Are they gonna leave the Z-42 like is now or they gonna buff it at some point, is worse in EVRYTING than the Georg Hoffmann and both cost steel, to the point that i think the Z-42 should be put in tier 9

Eh? Z-42 is already one of the best DD's at T10. For all the reasons listed above I suppose, though I have little xp with it. I just know it's one of the top ones.

Z-44 needs a buff, but that's a 9.

[Ace42]

Originally posted by arjensmit79:

If HE is that bad that its not a good option as ACE seems to indicate, then ehm, its imo a suck DD. A DD that cant fight other DD's unless they are stupid is a suck DD.

Depends on the ship in question (as Jackson points out, there's variability within the nation) - but yes, typically for German DDs they're sacrificing HE shell damage (so both DPM and alpha) for its bonus HE pen. Not a great trade-off vs DDs with armour that won't be right in that specific threshold.

The Z-54 tech-tree line's gimmick is AP focused mixed boats: So they want to alternate their "tolerable, but mediocre" torps with smoke-farming using their outstanding AP to maximise their battle impact once they've helped counter the enemy scouts.

There's a ton of skill indexing around using their AP vs DDs - if you can find the right angles so there's sufficient metal to arm the AP (Which Z-42 finds a tiny bit more forgiving because of the low calibre) without too many bounces or overpens (even with the improved fuse times), the AP DPM will *heavily* outgun pretty much any single mixed boat in the spread;
the hydro-trap gimmick gives them some tools to make up for their inconsistency in DD duels - and can potentially be used to outfarm the enemy DD whilst not having to worry about it counter-torping / pushing the smokescreen, although I wouldn't recommend that level of complacency.

But yep - DDs that can bully other DDs are massive battle impact, and the German mixed-boat line are *very* reliant on leveraging their advantages (hydro-trap, great AP) to make that work.
If you've got a CV (or any other support) whose strikes are punishing anything trying to angle against you (or that can let you smoke farm the DD down whilst enjoying safety of your hydro), then life becomes easier.
Likewise if you can use your torps to shape the opposing DD and thus force an angle out of them (or just pat yourself on the back as they eat torps / get dev-struck by teammates whilst caught trying to slip between them).

TBH I am not sure the high skill floor necessarily pays off proportionately for mastering it. But if you clear that skill floor the ships are fine and workable and can be fun if you don't mind the alternating smoke-and-torps playstyle.

I don't know about fuze times etc,

Hoffman's like the Elbing line without the improved ricochet angles; rather than the Z-52 line - so anti-cruiser AP into cits; or high pen HE that can free-farm like heavy cruisers do.

Like the Elbing line, it's guns are not great vs DDs - comparatively low DPM for both AP and HE, because it's more oriented around being able to mug cruisers rather than duel DDs.

[R[e]venge®-uk*]

OP can I ask you something, have you ever played a Z-42 ?

My Crystal ball is saying otherwise or you would not be stating the above!!

[bambuce]

Bruh how you can say Z-42 is OP.... barely does dmg, the AP has less pen that even a Gearing and the HE is unusable, is suposse to be the german "Harugumo" but the guns only pen 26mm with 5% fire chance, you cant even hurt cruisers...

with some luck, i see a Z-42 like evry 100 rankeds just to die in 2 mins, the nerf they did before releasing the ship killed it, i have it in the port for the coupon to buy santa crates

[Banzai]

Originally posted by bambuce:

Bruh how you can say Z-42 is OP.... barely does dmg, the AP has less pen that even a Gearing and the HE is unusable, is suposse to be the german "Harugumo" but the guns only pen 26mm with 5% fire chance, you cant even hurt cruisers...

with some luck, i see a Z-42 like evry 100 rankeds just to die in 2 mins, the nerf they did before releasing the ship killed it, i have it in the port for the coupon to buy santa crates

OP stands for "original poster" as well as "overpowered" and if you were referring to post #9 then it was an abbreviation for the first one.

That said, its performance is fine. Its certainly not outstanding but like a lot of the German DDs its a decent all rounder with no massive strengths (beyond the best in class hydro) but also no real weaknesses. The playstyle of the ones with the larger guns in the Elbing line is rather different. Hoffman sits pretty solidly in between the two lines taking some characteristics from them both.

[R[e]venge®-uk*]

Yes, I meant "Original Poster"

However..... You just put it in a Specific game mode?? Z's tend not to suit ranked as much as other ships due to Enemy Radar, focused zones and the fact they are "all rounders" and not made as a unique ship aka Torp or Gun Boat! They suffer with Concealment issues, a lack of speed and bang average torps! Better Options are available.....

Take a Gdansk for example with smoke and Quick reloading Radar, you will murder a Z in no time if you know what your doing!

All ships are "meant to be" balanced in the 12 v 12 Random game mode and for that the Z-42 is a fun little ship!

[arjensmit79]

Originally posted by Revenge®-uk*:

All ships are "meant to be" balanced in the 12 v 12 Random game mode

Is that really so ?
First of it would be surprising because pretty much every other game is balanced around its competetive play level.

Also, all those secondary ships feel balanced in ranked and super crappy in random. This seems to fit with an assumption that the game would be balanced around competetive modes.

I personally don't really feel too much difference in demands of a DD random vs ranked although in ranked it is slightly more often that you get into pure 1v1 fights with no support (on all those maps with 3 caps in triangle zones where often 1 DD goes to the nearby cap). And of course the larger change to have a german BB charging straight into your cap....

Then again, i feel like balancing efforts in WoWs are limited anyway. I guess they don't want to nerf ships or something. Now they are gonna buff a whole lost of ships in an upcoming patch, but it still leaves me wondering "why not this other huge list of ships that are no less mediocre". I know its frowned upon here to suggest that there ships are imbalanced, but hey, there's a reason everyone plays petro, napoli, vincent and a handfull other ships right ?

[Ace42]

Originally posted by bambuce:

Bruh (...) Z-42 (...) barely does dmg,

4th highest AP DPM for its class in the entire game.

HE DPM is 42/97 for DDs in its MM spread.
FPM 39/97 - not amazing, but not terrible either. Benefits disproportionately from improved fire chance buffs too.

the AP has less pen that even a Gearing

At its max base range you're looking at ~39mm (bottoms out at 34mm if you can extend the range). That's better than the best Destroyer base HE pen in the game - which itself is benefiting from German improved pen formula on 150mm light cruiser calibre guns to get that high.

Considering typical battleship plates can be <= 37mm; some <= 32mm - it's safe to say there's no shortage of farmable targets for the AP considering how many cruisers have thinner armour than BBs do.

and the HE is unusable, is suposse to be the german "Harugumo" but the guns only pen 26mm with 5% fire chance, you cant even hurt cruisers...

26mm is good for DD HE pen (thanks to the improved German HE pen).
It's 18/97 for DDs in its spread.
It's better than even some gunboats like Gdansk, Kléber, Khaba, etc, etc; and even without IFHE it pens a lot of light cruiser plates in its spread which Gdansk will not without IFHE.

5% fire chance is the same chance-per-shell as Haragumo and is typical for a lot of low-calibre fast-firing DDs in the game.

Z-42's FPM is middle-of-the-pack, and benefits disproportionately from using signals / CO skill to improve fire-per-shell compared to ships with worse shells-per-minute but higher fire chance-per-shell.
It's got better fires-per-minute than a pure gunboat like Delny, and buffing fire chance extends this lead even further.

it's weird that you initially chose to compare it to Hoffman, which has tangibly lower fires-per-minute than Z-42.

[Nepgear]

Originally posted by arjensmit79:

Originally posted by Revenge®-uk*:

All ships are "meant to be" balanced in the 12 v 12 Random game mode

Is that really so ?
First of it would be surprising because pretty much every other game is balanced around its competetive play level.

Is it not obvious from the fact they need ban lists for comp? And ranked isn't comp, just down-scaled randoms.