Triple-DIV vs. no-DIV is pure agony

[Jayman III]

According to my own records, whenever there's a triple-DIV vs no DIV, there's a >80% risk of losing the match. And this has happened way more frequently over the past few months. Can official stats be found somewhere?

How hard can it be to not match up a 3-DIV vs. a no-DIV?

[Jackson]

No official stats that I know of, but from my own experience playing, a div is just as, if not more likely to throw a match than to win one.

As to why there can't be always be mirrored divisions, well, because no one wants to wait longer in queue. I surely wouldn't. You won't ever have more than +1 on a team though. If there's two divisions, there'll be one per team. Three, one team will have 2 etc.

[Ace42]

Divisioning has a multiplicative effect.
If negative winrate plays division up, they perform worse. Because they are coordinating their misplays and represent a greater proportion of the team making mistakes.

If positive winrate players division up, they perform better, because they can build on each others' plays.

The matchmaker tries to match up division numbers on both teams; if it is not doing so, then your answer is "it is hard, because there are no suitable matches for it to make".

If your winrate is negative, the problem is not your team lacking divisions; it is you failing to facilitate and enable the teammates that you do have. Which can be remedied by concentrating on improving your own play, rather than looking to other players as an excuse for how battles play out.

[Banzai]

I assume you mean the odds are weighted in favour of the division? Any division with three decent players will obviously give their team a better chance of winning, but the opposite is also true if they arent very good.

With regard to the triple DD example there are some specific issues that actually balance things out. The fact that the division will all spawn in the same place means that the solo DDs on the other team will likely be uncontested in some areas of the map and once they know where the division is they can spot and push much more safely. If the division stays together then throwing area denial torps at their location will have 3 times the chances of hitting and one use of radar could be spotting all of them.

All that aside, good players tend to have better division stats than solo stats. You can check such things on sites like https://wows-numbers.com/ which can show a breakdown of performance when solo or in a division.

[R[e]venge®-uk*]

I have been helping out a new player outside of the clan recently in divisions of 3 and gosh my stats show it!!

That said I have a 4% Higher win rate @58.8% Currently in a Division of 3 compared to my @54.14% Solo!

wows-numbers.com is a good place to compare stats and also ship tiers which can skew stats as mentioned above!

That said, 2 x 55% ish players could not carry a new 42% player at tier 9 & 10 ... can do at lower tiers however but he was new to the higher tiers and made so many mistakes it was really hard to help them! a Few lessons and some feedback later I can confirm they are improving!! haha!

[AK]

I'm using shiptool.st/monitor to id the good players in the teams. It really helps to either focus them early or remove their support. Regarding the topic Ace42 already spelled it out. if you play against a decent CV, radar cruiser, gunboat DD division you are pretty screwed.. if its a bad triple brawling BB, play for the personal damage record. ;-)

[Jayman III]

Originally posted by Ace42:

If your winrate is negative, the problem is not your team lacking divisions; it is you failing to facilitate and enable the teammates that you do have. Which can be remedied by concentrating on improving your own play, rather than looking to other players as an excuse for how battles play out.

My overall W/R is around 53%, but in 0-DIV vs. 3-DIV it must be worse than 40%. Correspondingly, I'm "always winning" when I am on the side with 3-DIV vs. 0-DIV.

My point is that in my experience the 3-DIV vs 0-DIV MM makes matches very unfair

[Dee-Jay]

Like everyone is saying, the presence of a triple division on a team either boosts or tanks the teams chances of winning! Get a division of super-unicums from a top clan on your team and your chances of winning are way higher. On the other hand, having a trio of really bad players in a triple DD div (extreme example) is basically a throw.

[Ace42]

Originally posted by Jayman III:

My overall W/R is around 53%

Assuming a statistically significant and representative (IE not in the low tiers where the sheer number of WG bots makes it very hard to lose if you just kill the one or two humans on the opposing team) number of matches, that's well above average both in general, and for solo-queue randoms in specific.

In which case I'd say "don't sweat it" - as long as you don't see your winrate dip below 50% (and definitely not below 48%) it shouldn't really matter what the self-organisation of the enemy teams are - as long as you keep playing well you'll keep performing above average.

[Jayman III]

Originally posted by Ace42:

Originally posted by Jayman III:

My overall W/R is around 53%

Assuming a statistically significant and representative (IE not in the low tiers where the sheer number of WG bots makes it very hard to lose if you just kill the one or two humans on the opposing team) number of matches, that's well above average both in general, and for solo-queue randoms in specific.

In which case I'd say "don't sweat it" - as long as you don't see your winrate dip below 50% (and definitely not below 48%) it shouldn't really matter what the self-organisation of the enemy teams are - as long as you keep playing well you'll keep performing above average.

I have now recorded 23 instances of 3-DIV vs 0-DIV matches. The 3-DIVs lead 22-1...

[Nepgear]

My stats last 180 days say solo: 68% 225 battles, div3: 69.8% 242 battles. If I'm playing purple and diving with mostly greens I don't get that much of an advantage. Anyway, nothing stopping you from winning. Just be sure not to play a useless farm ship like Goliath if you really want the win.

[Senor Smoke]

the halo devs did a GDC where they talked about following pre-made teams around for a while to study what it does to the normies they played with & IIRC their finding was that it made non-premade players quit the game, roughly 100 per hour per pre-made (tho of course halo players will interact with more other players per hour and a WoW player where 1 10 person match could take half an hour).
those players who got roflstomped by a pre-made team of coordinated professionals were not only very likely to turn the game off but they also marked the accounts of those who did to see how long, if ever, until they turned back on & found they were the most likely to never turn the game back on again

[Ace42]

Originally posted by Jayman III:

I have now recorded 23 instances of 3-DIV vs 0-DIV matches. The 3-DIVs lead 22-1...

And if you had "recorded" this with any sort of transparent methodology and verifiable data; recorded the various players' solo and trio WRs, their individual PRs and battle counts, etc; uploaded the replays to replayswows.com; and performed the bare minimum of statistical controls needed to derive any sort of valid conclusion from this - that bare assertion might mean something other than highlighting the prospect of confirmation bias or just making things up.

But something as vague and lacking in context as "I saw some non-even div matches, and all bar one were lost to the team without a 3-man" is meaningless even if we accept it is correct.

Replays matter because if what we end up seeing is terrible solo-queue players deliberately refusing to punish incompetent 3-man divs who are hard-throwing, you're not really contradicting anything that you were told previously.

If you've got a positive winrate solo-queueing, as you stated earlier, then clearly this is no barrier to you winning matches. If your winrate is nose-diving, then there's going to be reasons for that other than uneven divisioning across two teams.

As you were told earlier.

Bad players divisioning up makes their performance worse than if they solo queue

Because consolidating misplays turns a flank that is hard to carry into a flank that cannot win.

And because terrible inexperienced players and their pick-up groups massively outnumber unicum divisions, you're going to see 3-man hard-throwers way more often than you see trio carries.

If it bothers you that much, just use the auto-division tool to the left of the "Battle" button to make your own 3-man div

That way you can guarantee you're never on the "painful" end of this transaction as you'll always have a pick-up group 3 man. And if the enemy team is on the "painful" end of it - and if they *care* - they can do the exact same thing.

But here's the dirty little secret - you won't find things get any better. Because playing in a division with potatoes will cost you matches as I keep saying.

Originally posted by Senor Smoke:

those players who got roflstomped by a pre-made team of coordinated professionals

Doesn't really apply to this thread - where the OP is talking about the relatively unusual circumstances of the game not mirroring divs.
The OP's argument - whether he appreciates it or not - is that a potato division of hard-throwers should be making matches more comfortable to win against 3-man unicum divisions instead of making them impossible to salvage.

Doesn't really apply to this game that much, either. In randoms a trio's only a quarter of the team that can be the opposite side of one match; they're not going to be in protected matchmaking; and they're not going to be slumming it routinely in the baby tiers.

There's certainly kami-giulio seal-clubbers in ~T5 matchmaking that are problematic, but I've dropped down to T5s fairly recently while knocking out some quick-easy dockyard missions and knocking snowflakes off a couple of ships for Xmas and I saw none.
Which makes sense as "coordinated professionals" don't need to pad their stats by seal-clubbing in ultra-rare unavailable ships; and if you're farming dockyard missions in the low tiers, you don't want good players divisioned up with you because you're fighting them for ribbons, damage, and kills just like with co-op.

Me solo-queuing was by far the biggest factor in how the matches played out, and I would quite happily have faced the entire enemy line-up entirely comprised of 3-man noob-divs without being remotely worried about how the matches turned out.

[christof]

Originally posted by Senor Smoke:

those players who got roflstomped by a pre-made team of coordinated professionals were not only very likely to turn the game off

The problem here however lies in the "coordinated professionals".

Provided that the division in question actually do coordinate and not just make one but never touch internal chat or use any other channel, the general rule is like this:
A division made out of unicums will likely dominate, their flank at the very least.
A division made out of average players will do a bit better than they would solo.
A division made out of potatoes will fail even harder than they would alone.

Of course the first of those three tend to team up more often than the third group. But you will meet a whole lot of division that fall into the second category. And those do not shift the winning chances all that much. It's an advantage for the team with one over one without. But nothing insurmountable.

There is one issue however that I've seen often which actually skewes things: Players seeing a division on the enemy side and none on their own and just giving up. Same as some players look at matchmaker monitor and just give up as soon as the enemy teams winrate average is more than 4% over their own team's. These are not predetermined battles, usually, unless you make it that way by not ever trying at all. (Not accusing the OP of doing that, mind you. But teammates of his may well have.)

[Elesh Norn]

Originally posted by christof:

Provided that the division in question actually do coordinate and not just make one but never touch internal chat or use any other channel, the general rule is like this:
A division made out of unicums will likely dominate, their flank at the very least.
A division made out of average players will do a bit better than they would solo.
A division made out of potatoes will fail even harder than they would alone.

I guess most people can agree on that.
I met total potato divs twice and yeah, rounded them up alone.

One was a 3dd div going against my Agincourt with secondary skills.
I have no idea what they were trying to achieve but they died without doing anything (except getting a cap).
Fair point - they werent in the same clan.

Second time was a 2 dd div against my Fiji.
They kinda forgot that I have hydro and camped in smoke and while running away going full broadside.

On the other hand, if you have a Smolensk Black combo, that knows what they are doing, they are pretty much untouchable.

In general, I don´t think the "average" div can make a difference in a match or at least not a huge one.

[arjensmit79]

My experience with DIV:

First of all, when i play in div myself, i play way worse than when i play solo. People talking to me will only make me play worse. I guess it would be better if we were to have a prepared plan and we'd only talk about what is happening right now in short messages, but that is not how people generally div in randoms.

And that does kinda fit with how i see other divs working. When i see 3 divs with for example the same ship, or a combination of the typical popular ships in competetive, thats when the divs are often strong and dangerous. When its a div with 3 random ships, they are usually no more dangerous than any other 3 random players.

I am currently in a particularly horrid clan full of players in the low 40's winrates. I'm actually 4th best @49.3% :D These guys also div you know.