German BB Captain Points (Secondary build for Zieten)

[Lumpus]

I checked the guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XfsIIbyORQAxgOE-ao_nVSP8_fpa1igg0t48pXZFIu0/edit#heading=h.7tgj1k494yhd) , and for my first 4pt skill it suggests concealment expert - but wouldn't either Manual Secondary Aiming or Close Quarters Combat be much more useful??

BBs (even BCs) are never going to be able to hide and if you're doing a full secondary build wouldn't either of those two skills be much more useful?

[Jackson]

Concealment is very important when you're outmatched and need to run away. It automatically gives you a significant advantage over the BB players who don't have it, and puts you on par with those that do. Particularly with Zeit which relies on kiting as it has 2/3 of its guns aft.

When I do a secondary build, I don't build it (usually) until I have an 18 pt captain. Fire prevention is also extremely important to brawling ships as they're even more likely to be set on fire. I'd do fire prevention before conceal personally. If you see an 18 pointer as a very distant far off thing and really want to try secondary, I'd skip conceal. Fire prevention is pretty much mandatory though. In that case you can pull it off with 14 points. In my opinion it's totally not worth doing with less than 14.

[Lumpus]

Thanks. Nearly at 10pt now and trying to decide what to do with the 4pts I'll have

[Nepgear]

Conceal helps get into positions, get closer, or disengage. On the higher tier ships the secondary range and conceal are almost the same so it makes it hard for ships to 1v1 you as they'll have to come into secondary range to fight as well.

[Ace42]

The improved DCP (Fast DCT) on the German Battlecruisers somewhat reduces the need for FP; and doing ambushes at T9+ is pretty straightforward.

Wouldn't prefer concealment over FP on most secondary build specs though, and I'd argue that FP vs CE is a matter of preference to a degree if you're confident on using terrain to ambush, and or can make the build work without ambushing.

14pt secondary build is somewhat workable, but really need 17pt to be competitive, and IIRC even with the German battlecruisers I prioritised FP over CE when I build them.

[bstangeby]

It will not help that much with concealment. My cruiser captain have the 4 point skill and have the module that increase concealment installed on the cruiser. Ship detectability is at 12.6 km. On a battleship it will be even higher if had same configuration.

[Ace42]

Originally posted by bstangeby:

It will not help that much with concealment. (...) Ship detectability is at 12.6 km. On a battleship it will be even higher if had same configuration.

Improved, Schlieffen's secondary range is 12.55km.

12.6k conceal is pretty good for a battleship, some cruisers struggle to meet that - Petro's improved conceal is 13km, ditto for Henri.

[Dee-Jay]

Concealment is the best armour and hitpoints that a ship can have! :)

[Maviba]

Originally posted by Lumpus:

Thanks. Nearly at 10pt now and trying to decide what to do with the 4pts I'll have

Start with concealment.
German BC line isn't exactly known for its durability during longer brawls. Too less armour and HP for that.
So what you want to do in those is acting like a predator: trying to sneak on your target, fire on it all you have, kill it, and retreat ASAP to regenerate.

Therfore concealment is essential for this line.
You can also almost "stealth-secondary" by using your concealment.

[Banzai]

A lot of it comes down to how confident you are with positioning and avoiding serious damage. The better you are at those two things, the more aggressive you can make your build (ie more skills that improve damage output and less that improve your survivability).

Concealment is never a bad choice and makes your stealth closer to your secondary range and also your long torp range. Personally I hardly ever take fire prevention (which ties in with the positioning thing above) but again its often a good pick and if you are struggling with fires then its maybe worth it. As above, the fast damage control on this line make it less necessary.

Theres no bad picks as such (out of the stuff mentioned) although if you are new to the line I would probably prioritise the close quarters combat skill as being the least important one to take early.

[R[e]venge®-uk*]

Concealment especially on a Zieten is essential! you kinda have to be playing that thing rear end in rather than nose in to be honest as it is made of paper for a BB ... but this does allow you to run away and go dark when being pushed heavy!!

[christof]

Originally posted by Maviba:

You can also almost "stealth-secondary" by using your concealment.

Quick sidenote: Unless you're acting from behind cover (be it islands, smoke or whatever), stealth-secondary is no longer a thing. Your concealment will be raised accordingly when they start firing.

[Maviba]

Originally posted by christof:

Originally posted by Maviba:

You can also almost "stealth-secondary" by using your concealment.

Quick sidenote: Unless you're acting from behind cover (be it islands, smoke or whatever), stealth-secondary is no longer a thing. Your concealment will be raised accordingly when they start firing.

unless they changed it during the last two patches, secondary guns fire doesn't have any effect on the conceilment. Only Main guns have.
I also said "almost" , since the german BC's MA range equals their conceilment at higher tiers.
so e.g. Schlieffen gets detected and can immediately fire its MA on the detecting target (given the oponent is also visible)

[Banzai]

Originally posted by Maviba:

Originally posted by christof:

Quick sidenote: Unless you're acting from behind cover (be it islands, smoke or whatever), stealth-secondary is no longer a thing. Your concealment will be raised accordingly when they start firing.

unless they changed it during the last two patches, secondary guns fire doesn't have any effect on the conceilment. Only Main guns have.
I also said "almost" , since the german BC's MA range equals their conceilment at higher tiers.
so e.g. Schlieffen gets detected and can immediately fire its MA on the detecting target (given the oponent is also visible)

Yeah they did change it quite recently, specifically around the time they added that secondary skill for cruisers which made some secondary ranges greater than concealment range. Notable example is Schroder which has something over 1km better stealth than secondary range when using that new skill. The change meant that secondary fire would make your concealment range equal to your sec range when they are active. It doesnt have the same cooldown effect as main guns however so you can just turn your secs off to go dark in these situations (I think anyway - will have to double check this).

[Maviba]

Oh, Ic.
haven't played for a while

[Banzai]

Originally posted by Maviba:

Oh, Ic.
haven't played for a while

It was one of those changes that was easily missed :)

Having done a bit of searching it was in these update notes, section 1.10:

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Update_12.8#Secondary_guns

"Now, when firing from secondary guns, the detectability range of the ship can increase if the firing range of the secondary guns exceeds the visibility of the ship. This change will not affect the detectability of ships firing secondary guns from a smoke screen."