is there still people complaining that subamrine are op ?

[alfox]

personnaly i play submarine and i love them but personnaly i think they kinda don't have enough punch not that's a bad think it's just that the locking systeme is kinda weird to use ? it's like using two weapon at the same time ? i would love to be able to fire "normal" torpedo that just go straigh foward

also kinda hard to claim kill it's etheir luck or your the only one left agains't one enemy

but i personaly think it a very good "support" ship if you aim good you can destroy the engine of enemy ship that way they turn into easy target for the ally

[Ashardalon]

wow he found someone that agrees with him

subs can only be balanced by giving battleships a repair as fast as the ping
think about how silly that sounds and then realize its reality

but thanks for the laughs

[Banzai]

al の投稿を引用：

jbwjr の投稿を引用：

If you ping a ship while at depth the Homing torps will rise to the surface or DIVE to hit a sub that is lower then you. Battleships are only dangerous cus your not gonna be able to one shot them with your Normal torpedo shotgun blast even if they all hit. (6 to 8 torps that do like 14k, not accounting for damage reduction on the belt).

i want to shoot without the ping and no i only have 4 torpedo and they almost do nothing on every ship the bigger think they can do is break the engine

also can you remeber that the sub can't stay undewater forever ? i did surface once near a battleship and it's weird to you but i die why because his canon can oneshoot a submarine and i only talk about the secondary canon

As explained earlier in the thread, you do not have to use the ping at all (and frankly its a bad idea to overuse it since you give away your location and heading). Acoustic homing torps and normal torps can be dumbfired without using homing at all as long as you are on the surface or periscope depth - they will go in a straight line in the direction you fired them.

Also if you happened to surface right by a BB then you getting sunk was more to do with your positioning than anything else. If you go upto periscope depth you will see any nearby threats and can only be outspotted by the stealthier DDs in the game. There is absolutely no need to be surfacing in close proximity to enemies unless you are planning to try a point-blank attack (which tends to be a bad idea if the target in question has support near it).

[Netharon]

christof の投稿を引用：

Netharon の投稿を引用：

"Because it can dive away if the captain has to fear detection. And leave no one the wiser as to where it actually was and is now headed. A DD can't do that, even if it has smoke."
First, the moment a sub is spotted it shows the last known location.

Do you see the problem here which turns your whole argument following that last sentence irrelevant?
You are constantly making the point for what happens if the sub player screws up. I am making the point for what happens if he doesn't. As he shouldn't. Which is exactly what I criticised you about. You write a sub player screwing up as the normal case that we should base balancing and arguments on, while labeling players of other ship classes screwing up as them screwing up. That's just hypocritical. Double standard.

And you really do it constantly:

Netharon の投稿を引用：

"Also even being within the range of ASW planes is not an actual danger to a submarine as long as it stays undetected. So claiming that spotting from that close puts the submarine at great risk simply is not true. Even with the reduced spotting range at periscope depth. Though in the latter case I will give you that battery management and timely retreat will be essential."

Agree to disagree. I don't agree with this. Strike planes are highly effective. I'm not sure how much experience you have in a sub, but ships that know how to use them and judge your heading will cause all kinds of hell for you very quickly. Guaranteed flood damage and HP loss from distance splashes alone is enough to make you regret positioning.

Strike planes are only effective and you will only regret positioning if you screw it up and get spotted. If you're not, you're fine. Simple as that.

Netharon の投稿を引用：

If you are out of position you get hammered. Plain and simple.

While this will often be true, the reverse conclusion in many cases is not. You even admit so yourself. And don't start with DDs here, you were talking about cruisers and BBs when you made the original claim.
BBs being the exact kind of ship that will have to make a stand or push and get hammered at times, if the team is to succeed. (Some cruisers actually can do the same.)

Netharon の投稿を引用：

I havn't stated any actual mechanics that are untrue or don't exist.

And I did not claim that you did. In fact I actually praised you for good advice on some points. But what you did make fallacious statements about that I called you out on was gameplay. That and the aforementioned double standard on bad examples of it you keep applying between sub players and other players.

You actually say it very well at some point:

Netharon の投稿を引用：

It is. Bad plays. Pure and simple.

You'd just need to apply it to both sides equally. Because everything you have put up as to why subs are actually very vulnerable and not as effective as people make it out here was all just examples of bad play by a submarine player. Pure and simple.

Netharon の投稿を引用：

Are all the mechanics balanced? No. Improvements need to be made and that says a lot from someone who likes them.
<...>
The problem is the skill ceiling with subs.

Here we actually agree again. Unfortunately I do not currently see a way to solve these problems that do not leave submarines as a class that no one except some die-hard enthusiasts will want to play.

Netharon の投稿を引用：

I did speak facts. Not opinions. The sub can't see anything from the "sea floor" other than those close enough to him, in which he can also be seen too. He certainly isn't spotting 10km away and sniping unless he is at the surface, or at periscope spotting a ship with compatible detectability for that range.

First of all, you are actually wrong on one thing here: A sub can see targets further away (at 8-10km, depending on the sub, this is from the official statements and confirmed by my own gameplay). Provided they are spotted by an ally.
Which, mind you, was never ruled out in the original statement or my reply. "Sniping" was the term used, not "spotting". Nor, to take things further, did my reply rule out the sub being surfaced. In fact I specifically pointed out that possibility as being the better course of action. Meaning that a sub in that situation could snipe and spot.

Netharon の投稿を引用：

I do not wish to argue, but I am doing my best to provide good information and facts.

And failing both, I'm afraid. That is not to say you did not provide any good information at all. To repeat myself: Even my original answer to you praised you for some of what you wrote. Unfortunately a lot of the rest was anything but good information and facts. Or where they were facts, they were simply not applicable to the situation that was being discussed. To name an example: A fully submerged submarine being spotted by hydro at 2km is a fact, you are correct here. But it is not relevant to it firing torpedoes at 8-10km, which it can and was the situation under discussion.

1. "Strike planes are only effective and you will only regret positioning if you screw it up and get spotted. If you're not, you're fine. Simple as that."

If the sub isnt being spotted, then he isnt pinging and he shouldnt be of any acoustic threat then. Pinging gives away that position every single time. If he is using alternate straight torps, then he can be treated with the same sort of threat as a DD, albeit without guns but faster reloading surface torps, since those can't be used at depths 3 and 4. Strike planes are sent out under a suspicion or confirmed area threat you know the sub is in or was in. They have a huge damage radius and ribbons / damage confirm that suspicion. They reload pretty fast and can be used again and again if the players guestimate of area is miscalculated. DD's (and some cruisers) can just spam tons of depth charges so that's not much issue for them.

2. "First of all, you are actually wrong on one thing here: A sub can see targets further away (at 8-10km, depending on the sub, this is from the official statements and confirmed by my own gameplay). Provided they are spotted by an ally."

Again, I did not provide false info, double standards, or omit details.
A sub can see targets based on the target's normal surface detection with all of its negative multipliers just the same as any other ship, when the sub is SURFACED. That specific number is what applies.
At periscope, they can still "snipe" but that surface detection number / range is reduced LOWER than the standard range other ships see each other, from the targets normal concealment.
At submerged depth ("depth 3"), they cannot see anything unless two things happen:
The ship is close enough (which is pretty dangerous, and hydro also plays a role. NOT 2km because this isn't maximum depth, which people don't realize). OR / AND you have teammates close enough to spot while you are at this depth. However, teammates spotting from classic surface detection mechanics do NOT provide the sub with that same full spotting. It is reduced - but it does help them see further at depth 3. I can't see a battleship 15km away at depth 3 just because my team can. This is precisely why the icon on the minimap for that ship is colored but not solid, because you know he is there due to spotting mechanics but you cant see him yourself due to your own spotting mechanics. The EXACT same mechanic is applied in weather events when visibility is reduced and your team is shooting at ships you cant see for yourself. Hydrophone has its own detection but does not allow live target tracking and targeting. It exists soley for shooting pings in a guestimated position to see if you can hit the target - and doing so reveals your position.
At maximum depth ("depth 4") - This is when hydro detects up to 2km. People get upset about this, but fail to realize the subs limitations at this depth. The depth charges and strike charges will damage and destroy with the exact same efficiency regardless of the depth.
If a ship is right above you within 2km, you CAN see them yourself at this maximum depth - but thats the tradeoff. It's only at that distance, and you can only see him because he is on top of you. Acoustic torpedos cannot arm in-time at that distance and a sub player shouldnt even be pinging in that situation anyways (here we go with the shotgun attempt). Your speed is cut tremendously and you will be challenged to get away without being destroyed. While at this depth and only seeing the ship on top of you, the entire enemy team from everywhere on the map sees you because the surface ship's spotting is still under normal mechanics. The only real reason depth 4 is in the game is for sub vs sub combat / torpedo dodging and that sort of thing. A sub dealing with another sub shouldnt have to surface when fighting. There just had to be an extra depth for them to maneuver. That depth explicitly limits the subs use against surface ships with spotting and detection mechanics. The problem is that part of the playerbase that just thinks there is a sub sitting on the bottom sniping all these detected ships and never coming up, which is simply not true. The same team-spotting mechanic mentioned above that gets reduced for each depth also applies to the maximum depth (its cut down to a fraction in detection range).

There is a caveat to this however. Assuming hydrophone is not being used and pings are guesses: The only possible way to do such "sniping from the bottom" is to ping the ship, fire torps, and dive. Or, ping the ship, dive, then fire torps. If you didn't double ping the sector, the timer could have a greater chance of expiring depending on how far this sniping is being done. Once you go down, you can see your ping-lock, but it doesn't show you the ship tracking / target like normal. The timer lock location just updates once in awhile. The same "reduced team-spotting mechanic" still applies in this sort of scenario- but if your on the bottom you are just not going to see the ship that far away even with help (unless he is dangerously close to you). I rarely every use maximum depth. Hiding from hydro I suppose is a strategy since that depth is 2km max, but the sub wont be doing anything for the team. He isnt spotting, he isnt capping, he isnt sniping, he isnt pinging (he could with hydrophone guestimates), and he is going slow. So essentially he isnt contributing anything to his team doing this unless its for destroying another sub or trying to hide from hydro. In the latter situation (in my experience) - strike charges are already on the way along with gung-ho commanders who cant wait to kill a sub. Battery doesn't last that long (my opinion of course, but 3-5 mins max total is meant to keep subs from being under the whole match, minus recharge times).
And when I say "So essentially he isnt contributing anything to his team" - perhaps that is the systematic issue to address. My focus in this game is always to work with a team to win.
The victory is more important than my ribbons, my total damage, etc. Not everyone agrees with that style of play (which is obvious if you have been on a team of bad players being folded like virgins on prom night). I would rather have performed less than stellar and win than carry hard and lose.

Submarines style of play is lone-wolf by nature, and I think that may be part of the problem.

[Netharon]

I should also point out, everything stated is not to agree with OP's original post. I had first replied to another poster. I'm still not quite sure what OP is talking about. Submarines have plenty of "punch" as he referred to, but only in the right hands. In the wrong hands, they are useless and don't contribute to the team. That is perhaps a gap that needs to be addressed.
And if my ships engine was destroyed I would be upset

[alfox]

Banzai の投稿を引用：

al の投稿を引用：

i want to shoot without the ping and no i only have 4 torpedo and they almost do nothing on every ship the bigger think they can do is break the engine

also can you remeber that the sub can't stay undewater forever ? i did surface once near a battleship and it's weird to you but i die why because his canon can oneshoot a submarine and i only talk about the secondary canon

As explained earlier in the thread, you do not have to use the ping at all (and frankly its a bad idea to overuse it since you give away your location and heading). Acoustic homing torps and normal torps can be dumbfired without using homing at all as long as you are on the surface or periscope depth - they will go in a straight line in the direction you fired them.

Also if you happened to surface right by a BB then you getting sunk was more to do with your positioning than anything else. If you go upto periscope depth you will see any nearby threats and can only be outspotted by the stealthier DDs in the game. There is absolutely no need to be surfacing in close proximity to enemies unless you are planning to try a point-blank attack (which tends to be a bad idea if the target in question has support near it).

in what language do i need to tell that i don't have normal torpedo

to me more clear you NEED to use the ping or you the dumbest sub user in the world
trying to shoot topredo without the ping mean etheir you are dumb and you are close to the enemy ship or your trying to predict the futur to try and launch you torpedo from impossible distance
and no being at periscopique depth doesn't help you'll get spot really kick and get killed
that mean you can forget trying to use torpedo at the surface or at periscopic depth

and if you try to use torpedo underwater the will go in a straigh line not going up or down when you play sub NEED to use the ping

[Banzai]

al の投稿を引用：

in what language do i need to tell that i don't have normal torpedo

to me more clear you NEED to use the ping or you the dumbest sub user in the world
trying to shoot topredo without the ping mean etheir you are dumb and you are close to the enemy ship or your trying to predict the futur to try and launch you torpedo from impossible distance
and no being at periscopique depth doesn't help you'll get spot really kick and get killed
that mean you can forget trying to use torpedo at the surface or at periscopic depth

and if you try to use torpedo underwater the will go in a straigh line not going up or down when you play sub NEED to use the ping

Sigh. Ive explained it as clearly as I can. Homing torps can be fired without using the ping and they will travel in a straight line. The aim assist (grey aiming sector) will give you an idea of the lead you need to use for them to be on target even without using the sonar ping. Speaking from experience, its perfectly possible to land hits by doing this and it removes the necessity of giving away your position (although obviously if they are homing in they will in theory be more reliable and will be more effective with the relevant Captain skills). That said when they are homing they are very easy to dodge if your target times their DCP correctly since the torps will basically line up then stop homing when at close range making it trivial to sidestep them. They will travel on the surface if you are at periscope depth or surfaced when you launch them, but yes if you are submerged then they wont go to the surface unless following a pinged target. As mentioned.

if you are at periscope depth then your stealth range will be substantially lower than if you are surfaced which means you can check if theres anything nearby and tbh if you have been paying attention to the map then you should have a fair idea of how far away your opponents are. If you surface right by a BB that you werent aware of then you definitely hadnt been paying attention.

Just to clarify btw (since you were the one who was apparently looking for advice which has been offered in good faith by people who maybe have more idea what they are talking about), while im no fan of playing subs I've been getting good results in them at all tiers and been topping my team while playing them a fair amount even when bottom tier in a match. If one of the people offering advice to you regularly gets over 2k base xp even when in a t8 sub in a t10 match then maybe the advice shouldnt be recieved with snarky "you dont know what you are talking about" responses.

Whatever anyway. Good luck in your games. Take or leave the reams of advice thats been offered to you.

[Netharon]

Banzai の投稿を引用：

al の投稿を引用：

in what language do i need to tell that i don't have normal torpedo

to me more clear you NEED to use the ping or you the dumbest sub user in the world
trying to shoot topredo without the ping mean etheir you are dumb and you are close to the enemy ship or your trying to predict the futur to try and launch you torpedo from impossible distance
and no being at periscopique depth doesn't help you'll get spot really kick and get killed
that mean you can forget trying to use torpedo at the surface or at periscopic depth

and if you try to use torpedo underwater the will go in a straigh line not going up or down when you play sub NEED to use the ping

Sigh. Ive explained it as clearly as I can. Homing torps can be fired without using the ping and they will travel in a straight line. The aim assist (grey aiming sector) will give you an idea of the lead you need to use for them to be on target even without using the sonar ping. Speaking from experience, its perfectly possible to land hits by doing this and it removes the necessity of giving away your position (although obviously if they are homing in they will in theory be more reliable and will be more effective with the relevant Captain skills). That said when they are homing they are very easy to dodge if your target times their DCP correctly since the torps will basically line up then stop homing when at close range making it trivial to sidestep them. They will travel on the surface if you are at periscope depth or surfaced when you launch them, but yes if you are submerged then they wont go to the surface unless following a pinged target. As mentioned.

if you are at periscope depth then your stealth range will be substantially lower than if you are surfaced which means you can check if theres anything nearby and tbh if you have been paying attention to the map then you should have a fair idea of how far away your opponents are. If you surface right by a BB that you werent aware of then you definitely hadnt been paying attention.

Just to clarify btw (since you were the one who was apparently looking for advice which has been offered in good faith by people who maybe have more idea what they are talking about), while im no fan of playing subs I've been getting good results in them at all tiers and been topping my team while playing them a fair amount even when bottom tier in a match. If one of the people offering advice to you regularly gets over 2k base xp even when in a t8 sub in a t10 match then maybe the advice shouldnt be recieved with snarky "you dont know what you are talking about" responses.

Whatever anyway. Good luck in your games. Take or leave the reams of advice thats been offered to you.

Also wanted to add to this for something you mentioned in case other readers are learning here.

(1) Getting two pings on the same sector will also make the acoustic torpedoes turn sharper and do more damage when hitting the double pinged sector.

(2) Acoustic torpedoes also travel in a straight line after reaching a certain distance to the locked target, thereby giving a chance to dodge regardless of ping-locks and not using DCP to clear it. Experience in reducing speed and turning in a direction away from the locked sector at the last moment (bow vs stern vs middle) seems to have varying success too.

Not necessarily valid to your response to this guy, but just wanted to add that info. Obviously, with switching times and the lack of being able to fire alternative torpedoes submerged, the only way to fire pingless straight-line torpedoes is to use the acoustic ones without pinging; which keeps your location info much better protected. This guy is certainly not seeing your point.

I too have had much success in firing acoustic torpedoes underwater without locking on, hitting submarines sailing by at the same depth that were not aware they were coming because I was not pinging them. It’s a great strategy.

One thing I’m not 100% sure of though. The straight-line travel (when locked on) after they reach a certain closing distance may not work on sub vs sub. Maybe it does. I know this tactic works for (experienced) surface ships to avoid acoustic torpedoes but I have noticed in sub vs sub they seem to track for 100% of the distance. I could be wrong here but it certainly seems like it and I can’t tell for sure. Have you noticed this?

[Hiei]

al の投稿を引用：

Banzai の投稿を引用：

As explained earlier in the thread, you do not have to use the ping at all (and frankly its a bad idea to overuse it since you give away your location and heading). Acoustic homing torps and normal torps can be dumbfired without using homing at all as long as you are on the surface or periscope depth - they will go in a straight line in the direction you fired them.

Also if you happened to surface right by a BB then you getting sunk was more to do with your positioning than anything else. If you go upto periscope depth you will see any nearby threats and can only be outspotted by the stealthier DDs in the game. There is absolutely no need to be surfacing in close proximity to enemies unless you are planning to try a point-blank attack (which tends to be a bad idea if the target in question has support near it).

in what language do i need to tell that i don't have normal torpedo

to me more clear you NEED to use the ping or you the dumbest sub user in the world
trying to shoot topredo without the ping mean etheir you are dumb and you are close to the enemy ship or your trying to predict the futur to try and launch you torpedo from impossible distance
and no being at periscopique depth doesn't help you'll get spot really kick and get killed
that mean you can forget trying to use torpedo at the surface or at periscopic depth

and if you try to use torpedo underwater the will go in a straigh line not going up or down when you play sub NEED to use the ping

No you don't *Need* to ping, seen several people do fine without pings, It's almost just like the ships that fire singular torpedoes (You know the uk lines who can fire each torp on it's own?)

https://youtu.be/P7GX8WtQOQU
Yuro is super good at the game and later in the video he doesn't even use the pings.
Try not to call names.

[Banzai]

The Imperial Best HIEI の投稿を引用：

No you don't *Need* to ping, seen several people do fine without pings, It's almost just like the ships that fire singular torpedoes (You know the uk lines who can fire each torp on it's own?)

https://youtu.be/P7GX8WtQOQU
Yuro is super good at the game and later in the video he doesn't even use the pings.
Try not to call names.

Yeah this. You actually increase your chances in some situations by saturating an area with a wide spread (with single drops) like you can do with UK DDs and a few select other ships (and tbh using them in this way is no different from how other DDs torps work with a spread of however many torps over a wider area). Homing torps are fine also but will have the potential for all missing since they will all go to the same place rather than over a wider area (obviously meaning that if you dodge one you dodge them all).

Edit: I appreciate the OP has stated they arent at a tier when "normal" torps are available yet, but when using this sort of torpedo you can sometimes bluff the enemy into using their DCP by pinging them anyway when the torps are on approach which can mean some floods that will last for their full duration. Obviously the ping wont alter the trajectory they are on (which honestly has caught a lot of people out when Ive done this).

[christof]

Netharon の投稿を引用：

If the sub isnt being spotted, then he isnt pinging and he shouldnt be of any acoustic threat then. Pinging gives away that position every single time.

Well, unless he's pinging constantly, it is actually not a guarantee. The marker only appears shortly. And is not very accurate either. But you are correct that to avoid even that chance, you will have to forgo pinging.
Which of course you very well can. Or only use it when you're sure the ships aren't looking (check the turret direction and rotation).

And you don't have to use the non-guided torpedoes, of course. The acoustic ones work just as fine. They just do less damage. However on most subs that comes with extra range.

Also sure, ships can just start spamming ASW planes to wherever the suspect a sub may be. But unless you are needlessly giving away your position, their chances of success are low, damage radius notwithstanding. And all that time they spend on bombing you is not only time they're not spending on firing on your teammates. Unless they locked them, their turrets will in fact turn out of position while they do so. Let them.

And there is still a major difference to DDs, the one I mentioned right at the start: Submarines have a vastly increased safety net in comparison. Do not underestimate that advantage.

Netharon の投稿を引用：

Again, I did not provide false info, double standards, or omit details.

Unfortunately you did and still do. And the number of it is legion.

- There is no depth 3 and 4 anymore. Submarines only have three depths now: Surface, periscope depth and submerged. That change is actually several months old now, you are seriously out of date. Not just on this though.

- A double ping does not raise the damage of acoustic torpedoes anymore UNLESS you have the corresponding 4-point captain skill and the double ping was active before firing the torpedoes.

- Up to the quoted message, you did insist on the fact that submerged submarines could not see targets at all unless being very close. Only now did you admit to them being able to see targets spotted by teammates. They will do so fully if the targets are within 8-10 km, depending on ships involved, and can attack those normally. They will not be able to see a BB at 15km, true. But since due to range they cannot attack the BB and the BB cannot attack them even if it knew their exact position, that is completely irrelevant. Seeing them on the minimap is entirely sufficient in this case.

- Furthermore, proximity spotting does not work for or against submerged submarines anymore. Unless the surface ship in question has hydro running, which allows it to detect the submarine within 2km (and no further). You could be sitting right underneath a Fletcher with your submarine with none of you the wiser. And no one able to fire at you, because they wouldn't even know you're there.
In fact not even submarines proximity detect other submarines when submerged. Unless submarine surveillance is running of course.

- "Acoustic torpedos cannot arm in-time at that distance" (speaking about within 2km):
Actually they can and they will. What they cannot do is rise to the surface to hit a target there. You mixed these two up.

-"and a sub player shouldnt even be pinging in that situation anyways (here we go with the shotgun attempt)."
You don't even know what shotgunning is, apparently. The shotgun maneuvre is surfacing (or going periscope depth, because that is actually enough) next to a target, just outside of your torpedoes arming distance and mass-fire your torpedoes into them. No pinging involved.
In fact pinging would usually be stupid in that situation, since you're nearly within the range that torpedoes stop turning anyway and too close for your target to be able to evade. (Hence why it may be a good idea to use conventional torpedoes for the extra damage.) Never mind that pinging and switching between the ping and torps takes away time you should be using on firing torpedoes and diving again/evasive maneuvres.
It is, as mentioned, a high risk/high reward tactic. But if you manage to actually surprise your opponent (which with the right approach and target selection is very much possible), you will be unspotted again and on a changed course at full speed before any retaliatory air strikes land on your last position.

- "The only possible way to do such "sniping from the bottom" is to ping the ship, fire torps, and dive. Or, ping the ship, dive, then fire torps. If you didn't double ping the sector, the timer could have a greater chance of expiring depending on how far this sniping is being done.
Wrong again. If you are on the surface, as your ping-fire-dive and ping-dive-fire implies, you do not have to ping at all. It is only necessary if you are submerged. And even then, you only really need it for the torpedoes to rise to the surface, which happens quickly enough. One ping is enough for that, it does not have to be active when you fire the torpedoes. Nor does it have to be active when they reach the target. Hence no need for a double ping either.
Yes, this does presume that you know how to aim and your target is not dodging (or doing a bad job of it). But such is life for everyone in the game going for a sniping attack. It's just that others can't do it with as much impunity as submarines. Except maybe a Shimakaze with long distance torps at 20km. But then that playstyle is nowhere near as efficient.

But as I've now said repeatedly. With you completely ignoring me saying it: The best long distance sniping doesn't even have you submerged. It's done from the surface with your diving capability being saved for emergencies.

[christof]

al の投稿を引用：

i did surface once near a battleship and it's weird to you but i die why because his canon can oneshoot a submarine and i only talk about the secondary canon

Sorry, but that is an outright lie. No secondary of any ship in the game can oneshot any of the subs unless it is on its last slithers of health anyway.
And even with the main guns, it's not guaranteed. Without having HE loaded (provided you're not in Atlantico or most Italian BBs), you will mostly overpen. And there is a good chance you wil notl actually land enough shots on target to do enough damage.
That being said, I fully agree that an HE loaded Marlborough or Mecklenburg will shred any sub it can fire at. But again, only the main guns can make this quick and they are still not guaranteed to succeed in a single salvo.

al の投稿を引用：

to me more clear you NEED to use the ping or you the dumbest sub user in the world

The contrary is true. Needing to use the ping is what makes you the dumbest sub user in the world. Even the acoustic torpedoes work perfectly fine without a ping. They just won't home in on a target so you actually have to aim manually as everyone else. But they are able to hit and do damage just fine even so.

[Netharon]

christof の投稿を引用：

Netharon の投稿を引用：

If the sub isnt being spotted, then he isnt pinging and he shouldnt be of any acoustic threat then. Pinging gives away that position every single time.

Well, unless he's pinging constantly, it is actually not a guarantee. The marker only appears shortly. And is not very accurate either. But you are correct that to avoid even that chance, you will have to forgo pinging.
Which of course you very well can. Or only use it when you're sure the ships aren't looking (check the turret direction and rotation).

And you don't have to use the non-guided torpedoes, of course. The acoustic ones work just as fine. They just do less damage. However on most subs that comes with extra range.

Also sure, ships can just start spamming ASW planes to wherever the suspect a sub may be. But unless you are needlessly giving away your position, their chances of success are low, damage radius notwithstanding. And all that time they spend on bombing you is not only time they're not spending on firing on your teammates. Unless they locked them, their turrets will in fact turn out of position while they do so. Let them.

And there is still a major difference to DDs, the one I mentioned right at the start: Submarines have a vastly increased safety net in comparison. Do not underestimate that advantage.

Netharon の投稿を引用：

Again, I did not provide false info, double standards, or omit details.

Unfortunately you did and still do. And the number of it is legion.

- There is no depth 3 and 4 anymore. Submarines only have three depths now: Surface, periscope depth and submerged. That change is actually several months old now, you are seriously out of date. Not just on this though.

- A double ping does not raise the damage of acoustic torpedoes anymore UNLESS you have the corresponding 4-point captain skill and the double ping was active before firing the torpedoes.

- Up to the quoted message, you did insist on the fact that submerged submarines could not see targets at all unless being very close. Only now did you admit to them being able to see targets spotted by teammates. They will do so fully if the targets are within 8-10 km, depending on ships involved, and can attack those normally. They will not be able to see a BB at 15km, true. But since due to range they cannot attack the BB and the BB cannot attack them even if it knew their exact position, that is completely irrelevant. Seeing them on the minimap is entirely sufficient in this case.

- Furthermore, proximity spotting does not work for or against submerged submarines anymore. Unless the surface ship in question has hydro running, which allows it to detect the submarine within 2km (and no further). You could be sitting right underneath a Fletcher with your submarine with none of you the wiser. And no one able to fire at you, because they wouldn't even know you're there.
In fact not even submarines proximity detect other submarines when submerged. Unless submarine surveillance is running of course.

- "Acoustic torpedos cannot arm in-time at that distance" (speaking about within 2km):
Actually they can and they will. What they cannot do is rise to the surface to hit a target there. You mixed these two up.

-"and a sub player shouldnt even be pinging in that situation anyways (here we go with the shotgun attempt)."
You don't even know what shotgunning is, apparently. The shotgun maneuvre is surfacing (or going periscope depth, because that is actually enough) next to a target, just outside of your torpedoes arming distance and mass-fire your torpedoes into them. No pinging involved.
In fact pinging would usually be stupid in that situation, since you're nearly within the range that torpedoes stop turning anyway and too close for your target to be able to evade. (Hence why it may be a good idea to use conventional torpedoes for the extra damage.) Never mind that pinging and switching between the ping and torps takes away time you should be using on firing torpedoes and diving again/evasive maneuvres.
It is, as mentioned, a high risk/high reward tactic. But if you manage to actually surprise your opponent (which with the right approach and target selection is very much possible), you will be unspotted again and on a changed course at full speed before any retaliatory air strikes land on your last position.

- "The only possible way to do such "sniping from the bottom" is to ping the ship, fire torps, and dive. Or, ping the ship, dive, then fire torps. If you didn't double ping the sector, the timer could have a greater chance of expiring depending on how far this sniping is being done.
Wrong again. If you are on the surface, as your ping-fire-dive and ping-dive-fire implies, you do not have to ping at all. It is only necessary if you are submerged. And even then, you only really need it for the torpedoes to rise to the surface, which happens quickly enough. One ping is enough for that, it does not have to be active when you fire the torpedoes. Nor does it have to be active when they reach the target. Hence no need for a double ping either.
Yes, this does presume that you know how to aim and your target is not dodging (or doing a bad job of it). But such is life for everyone in the game going for a sniping attack. It's just that others can't do it with as much impunity as submarines. Except maybe a Shimakaze with long distance torps at 20km. But then that playstyle is nowhere near as efficient.

But as I've now said repeatedly. With you completely ignoring me saying it: The best long distance sniping doesn't even have you submerged. It's done from the surface with your diving capability being saved for emergencies.

Honestly, I find you incredibly combative, condescending, and pompous in how you reply to people here, including me. You insist on giving some sort of parenting-style false-positive compliments just before you proceed to speak to someone like they are stupid and I find it insulting. You are even calling other folks dumb.

The information you are providing / arguing is also not accurate with current mechanics, and arguing valid points or facts with false information is just creating more confusion.
If we want to share opinions on this forum, people can disagree, and they can do so constructively.

The only thing above you have stated that is corrective of anything I had provided is about the bonus damage on a double ping. That is correct, as it was updated and I was not aware. You are not correct in detection, spotting, hydro, (other than 2km maximum depth that we agree - but not on depth mechanics), sniping, concealment, and other various information.

I can continue to debate with you, but it's not getting anywhere. I wish you happy sailing.

[jbwjr]

al の投稿を引用：

jbwjr の投稿を引用：

If you ping a ship while at depth the Homing torps will rise to the surface or DIVE to hit a sub that is lower then you. Battleships are only dangerous cus your not gonna be able to one shot them with your Normal torpedo shotgun blast even if they all hit. (6 to 8 torps that do like 14k, not accounting for damage reduction on the belt).

i want to shoot without the ping and no i only have 4 torpedo and they almost do nothing on every ship the bigger think they can do is break the engine

also can you remeber that the sub can't stay undewater forever ? i did surface once near a battleship and it's weird to you but i die why because his canon can oneshoot a submarine and i only talk about the secondary canon

aw, so the tier 6s then huh? If your running out of air near an enemy ship that is on you _Captain_ . Like i said earlier YOU DO NOT NEED TO USE THE PING AT ALL! Just fire the torpedos normally like you do with any other torpedos in the game from SURFACE or PERISCOPE depth. In fact unless you grab that 4 point skill that rewards you for getting Double pings by increasing the damage of homing torps, their really is NO REASON to use the ping.

When you stop and think about it, the PING is a TRAP. Every time you use the ping: 1. it lights up the area under/around your sub from the moment you fired it with a white indicator. 2. it sends out a visual trail that can be easily traced back to you. The combination of these 2 things makes it VERY EASY to pin point your location if you use the ping regularly.

[christof]

Netharon の投稿を引用：

Honestly, I find you incredibly combative, condescending, and pompous in how you reply to people here, including me. You insist on giving some sort of parenting-style false-positive compliments just before you proceed to speak to someone like they are stupid and I find it insulting.

Dude, if you can't take a compliment or criticism in good faith, that is very much a you problem.

And if I started to sound like a lecturer at times, it was because you kept ignoring points I brought up, arguing as if I'd never done so. Without rebuting them. In fact, you at times even tried to use them against me in a "but it's actually like this" fashion, when 'this' was precisely what I had written.

So excuse me if your complains do lack credibility to me. Or sincerity. It honestly sounds like a cop-out to me. With you trying to divert attention away from what was discussed while placing all blame on me.

Netharon の投稿を引用：

You are even calling other folks dumb.

Let's look at the context before we start the name-calling, shall we?

al の投稿を引用：

to me more clear you NEED to use the ping or you the dumbest sub user in the world

The contrary is true. Needing to use the ping is what makes you the dumbest sub user in the world.
What I did was take another person's statement and turn it around on them. Rightfully so, from an objective point of view. Since he did in fact have it exactly the wrong way around. You may criticise me for using his exact wording in doing so. But only if you also point your accusations at the real origin of it. Or is him agreeing with you enough reason for you to spare him?

Netharon の投稿を引用：

The information you are providing / arguing is also not accurate with current mechanics, and arguing valid points or facts with false information is just creating more confusion.

I strongly suggest you read up on the current submarine mechanics then. You will find everything I called you out on as part of the official documentation and guides. Anything I pointed out, you did in fact get wrong completely or is outdated by two months or more. And I have tested this myself in game. So I'm not just blindly following official statements here. You can find a decent summary of the current mechanics in the guide that was published in the WoWs news section on October 5th, for example.

To come back to my first sentences in this posting: If you can't take officially published facts for what they are, that is very much a you problem.

[Netharon]

You can keep typing away if you like. I didn’t call you any names. I pointed out that you are calling other folks names. You called someone the dumbest sub user in the world for using a game mechanic. You call people liars by saying they tell outright lies. Now you accuse of diverting attention because someone finally called you out on it. This is a public forum where facts, opinions are shared, and discussions are had. There is no need for name calling, disrespect, and constant condescension. I ignored it at first but as you continued to do it I decided not to discuss the specific topics with you anymore. Criticism and compliments are just fine. What you fail to understand is your way of going about it.
I already admitted one topic where I was incorrect due to an update on mechanics. I verified it after criticism. Many of your other points are not checking out and I decided to no longer continue the discussion for those with you because of your replies. That is all.