My Thoughts on Guilio Cesare Nerf to Tier VI

[s u p e r g r a m p s]

Another Essay folks.

No one is happy with Wargaming nerfing this premium. They have a whole policy about not nerfing premium ships in general since the customer should not suffer for paying for a ship for it to one day be nerfed. I have to respect Wargaming for even having a policy like this in the first place, but I digress: this is the first they have really nerfed a premium ship. But on what grounds?

Well, lets first look at the ship itself starting with it's guns: 2x3 2x2 320mm guns in a AB-XY format with the twin guns superfiring over the triple guns. They have a 1.9 sigma with a 30 sec reload and can turn 180° in 36 seconds. They have fantastic muzzle velocity at 830 m/s and do 9,700 HP of damage on a citadel hit, while doing ~3,201 damage on a regular penetrating hit, giving her a 194,000 potential DPM (if all shots connect and citadel in two reload cycles) and a nominal DPM of 64,020 (if all shots connect and penetrate in two reload cycles).

Her armor scheme is excellent with 140mm of belt armor protecting a decent amount of the ships sides, and most importantly, 85mm-110mm of bow armor, which means the only soft spots are directly from the front through the 19mm of armor, and the 19mm over the stern, which has a flat belt of 110mm-130mm protecting the citadel.

Her final asset is her concealment, which is at 13.70km, the same as the much smaller Oktober Revolution. With Concealment expert and camo, she can get her concealment down to 11.96km.

All of this creates a ship that can easily sit a mid range, quickly punish and ships that show broadside, and prove to be very difficult to damage in return before she vanishes back into stealth.

So? How does she match up to the other tier Vs? HP wise she has 45,500 base HP, which means she places 6th in HP pool, beating out only Bretagne and Oktober Revlution. Her armor scheme makes up for this weakness, due to all the 140mm armor covering most of the sides of the ship, combined with her best in class turret rotation, conventional turret set-up, and decent firing angles, allows her to fire her broadside from a rather comfortable angle compared to most of the tier V battleships.

She scores 2nd in mobility at 27kts, only beat out by the Battlecruiser mobility of Kongo Hiei's 30kts. She has 3rd in class rudder shift and a average turning circle of 640m. Her AA and secondaries are decent, but nothing to write home about when compared to the likes of Texas, Iron Duke, and Konig.

So, overall, she beats out a lot of the tier Vs in many places, so how will she match up at tier VI?

For starters, she'll have the least HP out of all the tier VIs battleships, though this may be subject to change, as her HP even in tier V is pretty low, and if you ask me, they'll likely buff it up some to compensate the tier jump. Her armor is still very good, as her soft 19mm plating could already be overmatched by 356mm guns, that is, if they can get a clean shot through the front or back of the ship. However, with the inclusion of seeing more ships with 380mm-406mm guns, she'll very will feel it when a ship manages to hit her broadside, any they may even get a citadel if they can punch through all the armor at the right angle. On top of that, her 19mm of plating will be very easy to damage from ships with 152mm guns or higher, though it could be possible that she'll also get heavier 25mm plating to compensate it.

Her assets that she had at tier V will still be relevant at tier VI: good armor, stealth, and fast shells. She'll still be able to the same thing and sit a mid range, quickly punish and ships that show broadside, and prove to be very difficult to damage in return before she vanishes back into stealth. It's just that she'll be more likely to be damaged in return due to the larger guns slinging bigger shells around at the higher tiers. Her mobility will also still set her apart from the slower super-dreadnoughts.

Her guns will still have competitive DPM due to their extreme AP damage, keeping pace with the 380mm/381mm/410mm armed super-dreadnoughts, but pales in comparison to New Mexico, Fuso, Normandie, and Arizona with their 12-gun 340mm/356mm broadsides.

Wrapping this all up? Well I believe that with some 25mm plating, some more HP, she'll be perfectly fit for tier VI. Her main assets of stealth, armor, guns, and mobility are all still there, which made her an OP ship at tier V to begin with. So to all the people over-reacting about this whole nerf: please stop, it's wholly justified when comparing the ship to both tiers of V & VI.

Now, if they do this to ANY other more recent premium ship for a more unreasonable cause, THEN I will agree that they're breaking their own old policy on not nerfing premium ships. If that day ever comes, then It'll be OK to break out the Torches and Pitchforks.

Though, Keep in mind some older ships could receive the same treatment, and I believe it'll be wholly justified, Kutuzov and Belfast 1956 for example. Those ships were released before the super-tester program, which started late 2015. I'm all for Wargaming to fixing their old mistakes, so If they ever nerf those ships, I will not act surprised, but rather content.

[StormhawkV]

I like how they advertised the christmas crates with the Giulio then said they are going to nerf the ship right after. At this point everyone who thinks WG releasing brokenly overpowered ships when supertesters and CCs told them not to do so is anything but strategy is just delusional.

Just to clarify I'm all for balancing stupidly OP premium ships but at least refund the buyers with real money and not dubloons. Everything else would be a scam.

[s u p e r g r a m p s]

StormhawkV původně napsal:

I like how they advertised the christmas crates with the Giulio then said they are going to nerf the ship right after. At this point everyone who thinks WG releasing brokenly overpowered ships when supertesters and CCs told them not to do so is anything but strategy is just delusional.

Just to clarify I'm all for balancing stupidly OP premium ships but at least refund the buyers with real money and not dubloons. Everything else would be a scam.

Yeah... not much I can say about that one. Xmas is always a time for marketing ploys, and Xmas crates are a sort of "Hey you can get a chance of getting one of the old OP premium ships that are no longer on sale!" They probably turn good profit for that reason.

As far as their marketing strategy for their premiums? I feel like as long as it's not a russian ship, it gets run through the wringer pretty good until they get it to where they want it. I mean look at Wichita: it was OP when it first got tested and it's release now is pretty tame compared to what it was. Too bad it's getting cucked by the 10km US radar standardization.

At least the good thing about releasing a premium in a really balanced or weak state means they can get more feedback from a wider consumer base of what they need to improve.

[Maj.Tryhard]

While I completely understand why people would latch onto the concept of premium ships not being nerfed, I think it's important for the balance of the game to not have any ships be too OP. For that reason, I don't believe the 'no-nerf' promise is good for anything but pushing premium sales. It's not right that somebody can get a huge advantage in a competitive game just for spending some money. That's the sort of thing that ruins competitive f2p games, as eventually you reach a point where you can no longer compete without spending money, which breeds animosity amongst the players who don't have as much expendable income.

And technically, it hasn't been nerfed, It's just been re-classified into a tier that it better fits into. Sorry, but I don't have any sympathy for anybody who spent their real money to buy an OP ship so they could feel like they're better than they really are.

To my perspective it really doesn't make any difference. I'll still be getting destroyed by them as I try to work my way up from tier 5, and they'll still be competing largely against the same tier 5-7 ships that they were before. I don't see any reason for people to be angry or demanding a refund of any sort.

[Rabidnid]

StormhawkV původně napsal:

I like how they advertised the christmas crates with the Giulio then said they are going to nerf the ship right after. At this point everyone who thinks WG releasing brokenly overpowered ships when supertesters and CCs told them not to do so is anything but strategy is just delusional.

Just to clarify I'm all for balancing stupidly OP premium ships but at least refund the buyers with real money and not dubloons. Everything else would be a scam.

Yes, to all of that. Belfast needs to go to tier 8 so we can finally use the most fun tier - 7 - for Ranked and Clan Battles. I'm fine with doubloons as there are significant practical limitations on returning real money.

[StormhawkV]

s u p e r g r a m p s původně napsal:

As far as their marketing strategy for their premiums? I feel like as long as it's not a russian ship, it gets run through the wringer pretty good until they get it to where they want it. I mean look at Wichita: it was OP when it first got tested and it's release now is pretty tame compared to what it was. Too bad it's getting cucked by the 10km US radar standardization.

That's another problem. As I see it premiums are either much stronger than their tech tree counterparts or they are really boring knockoffs. There's nothing in between and this has been going on for quite some time now.

[Donegali]

s u p e r g r a m p s původně napsal:

Another Essay folks.
but I digress: this is the first they have really nerfed a premium ship.

Blyskawica would like a word with you. Sold purely on the basis of being able to stealth fire and had the main advantage totally removed with the changes. Went from one of the best T7 DD's to mediocre at best in 1 patch. Don't get me wrong, the changes were needed but no buffs to make up for it.

[Ryuu]

25 mm plating and fire chance reduction of appropriate tier were actually mentioned: https://www.facebook.com/wowsdevblog/posts/2287615224898145
HP was not, but it's in testing, so might be tweaked.

I have never heard about F2P games refunding real money because of balancing changes, do you have some example links? I haven't heard about any other companies having a general guidelines to not rebalance premium vehicles or some analogous premium goods. Have any examples on that? I'm just not an expert in F2P and MMO games in general, would be interested how different companies handle that.
And from other point of view: you're getting a tier 6 ship instead for the same money.

Another problem is the liquidity of doubloons, people say it's low, so maybe something can be thought in that direction.
I've seen this suggestion: what do you think if they instead added an Inventory section like for CVs but allowing you to trade-in new Giulio Cesare for any other(non-removed from sale, so no Kamikaze) T5 premium for 2 weeks after that release?

Another solution could be cloning of the ship, but it looks very ugly and in perspective can cause the game to be riddled by clones making it hard to communicate which version you're talking about

[StormhawkV]

The problem is the premium ships in WoWs are quite expensive. WG justified this by saying they would never nerf them. When people buy premium ships they do it based primarily on the class of the ship and its tier. Changing these most basic characteristics of a ship might make it useless for the purpose it was originally bought. Someone who already owns a bunch of tier 6 BBs wouldn't be neccessarily interested in another tier 6 BB.

It also creates uncertainty when buying premium ships because you will never know if WG nerfs the ship a few month later, so even looking up reviews for the ship on Youtube might leave you disappointed in the end. Of course all of this wouldn't be a problem if they listened to supertesters and CCs but by now I don't think they release broken ships because they made a mistake. It's intentional and it will be even more intentional in the future.

[Ryuu]

So you suggest to keep all those premiums as is?

[StormhawkV]

No, I say they should offer real money refunds as stated in my first response to this topic.

[Ryuu]

StormhawkV původně napsal:

No, I say they should offer real money refunds as stated in my first response to this topic.

And you think it's realistic and there are any examples of companies running F2P-games ever doing so?

[StormhawkV]

Ryuu původně napsal:

And you think it's realistic and there are any examples of companies running F2P-games ever doing so?

A deal is a deal. We are buying virtual goods that were clearly defined at the time we bought them. Compensation in dubloons is useless because dubloons are useless. You can only buy a very limited amount of premium ships for them. I know they said they will change this but it will never happen because they know they'd lose a lot of money from this as many people have tenthousands of dubloons on their account and are still forced to buy new ships on the store page. To my knowledge no other F2P game uses such a system so I don't know if it has happened before.

[Ryuu]

StormhawkV původně napsal:

A deal is a deal. We are buying virtual goods that were clearly defined at the time we bought them.

Yes, and it's covered in Terms of Service with which you agreed on launching/installing the game:
http://legal.eu.wargaming.net/en/terms-of-service/

8.3 We set out below the rules that apply to Virtual Goods:
a) Virtual Goods may only be redeemed for other Virtual Goods where permitted in the Services;
b) once you have purchased Virtual Goods, those Virtual Goods are non-refundable and non-exchangeable (whether or not you use them), except as set forth in these Terms of Service, or as it is required under the applicable law;

d) Virtual Goods cannot be exchanged for cash or any goods or services (except other Virtual Goods as permitted in the Services);
e) we do not make any promises about how or when Virtual Goods may be available for purchase and can update or change Virtual Goods available for purchase at any time;

And below that 14-days refund period is described applicable for EU. So there's no legal grounds.

Compensation in dubloons is useless because dubloons are useless. You can only buy a very limited amount of premium ships for them.

Yes, so what about solving this problem instead because it's a lot more realistic. What do you think about being able to trade-in such ships for another premium ship of that tier(original tier, like it was bought, so T5), except those out of sale?
Of any class, because it's pretty few T5 BBs in existence. I think sounds pretty good and i'd consider that if i was the owner of GC.

But that's just my unofficial thoughts, i wonder what idea would they come up with. Making most T5 premiums temporarily purchasable for doubloons for GC owners? Pretty much a trade-in, but with taking prices into account, so you then could exchange GC and have some leftover doubloons.
Yeah, maybe they'll somehow make doubloons great again :)

To my knowledge no other F2P game uses such a system so I don't know if it has happened before.

Yeap, because it's not how this works, so it's wishful thinking. When you send any money to ANY F2P/MMO game you can never hope to see them again, aside from when the goods don't arrive or within refund period(if applicable). At most they usually get converted into game currency when for some reason removed, etc.

As far as i know all other similar games freely nerf and buff all premium vehicles — both WG games like WoT, and all other companies. Though i haven't played WoT for a long time, so maybe they got some other method of operation.

[Maj.Tryhard]

Plenty of games have both "premium" currency as well as items only available for real money. And most devs reserve the right to alter any and all game assets, there's usually a clause covering that in the terms and conditions. I've also never heard of a f2p game refunding people with real money, and there are a lot of reasons for that. It's definitely not likely to happen here just because an item needed to be balanced.

Once again, they haven't even nerfed it. None of the stats have been reduced. Most likely, they're actually buffing it, even though it's completely capable as a tier 6. So, in reality, you'll prolly end up with an even stronger ship, and you'll have an even easier time wading through tier 5 ships as they claw desperately at your hull.

[s u p e r g r a m p s]

Donegali původně napsal:

Blyskawica would like a word with you. Sold purely on the basis of being able to stealth fire and had the main advantage totally removed with the changes. Went from one of the best T7 DD's to mediocre at best in 1 patch. Don't get me wrong, the changes were needed but no buffs to make up for it.

It's one of the older premium ships in the game, which for some reason, Wargaming takes it's sweet time buffing the older premium ships.

Like, when they announced that Sims was getting it's torpedoes buffed, I actually muttered "took them long enough!" If you ask me, It may also have to do with how much profit they're making from some premium ships, and they want to focus their attention on ships that are either new or a lot of people are buying.

Still, I want Yubari's as-built 2x2 2x1 140mm setup for an optional Hull, and Atago's Takao's 6x3 6x2 25mm AA guns dammit. Older premium ships need some love...