Hybrid Battleships....

[Karmaterrorᵁᴷ]

Am I the only one who finds this concept nuts. The idea seems strange, the look of them seems strange... did they ever actually exist or are they just a biproduct of a vodka fuelled creative session at WG?

PS I know irl they landed aircraft on cruisers during initial testing. But ofc they were horribly suited for launching and landing so carriers lol

[casualsailor]

I just can't see wasting money on a pig in a poke. You are literally purchasing a ship for the momentary ability to exploit its newness. But Wargaming will likely nerf the ship or change the matchmaking such that the fun you are having today with it is short lived.

Read the fine print before making your purchase. And remember...NO REFUNDS.

If deemed necessary, balance changes may be applied to Ise.

[Lavian]

Originally posted by casualsailor:

I just can't see wasting money on a pig in a poke. You are literally purchasing a ship for the momentary ability to exploit its newness. But Wargaming will likely nerf the ship or change the matchmaking such that the fun you are having today with it is short lived.

Read the fine print before making your purchase. And remember...NO REFUNDS.

If deemed necessary, balance changes may be applied to Ise.

Doubt they'd change the matchmaking particularly with a rare ship type that doesn't even exist in the tech tree. As far as balancing the ship: that could be difficult.

They can nerf the hell out of Ise if she turns out to be winning too much (which she may not be), but the thing that'll make her dangerous regardless of her damage and protection characteristics is the ability to do the same sort of spotting that a CV does. If one side has one or more of Ise, the other does not, and there are no carriers, guess which side's DDs are far more likely to be totally screwed.

Of course, they could just remove the ability for her aircraft to spot for allies, but I don't see that happening.

There's also the fact that T6 is a weird beast. At this point, you have a fair number of DD players that are still learning how to play DDs as DDs are played outside of the low tiers in WoWs. Compounded with this is players that don't understand just how influential DDs are when played properly. All of the spotting in the world doesn't help if your team doesn't shoot the things you're spotting, and spotting and removing a player from the match that didn't really know what they're doing at all doesn't really change the flow of the match as hard as say... permaspotting a Kamikaze and getting that killed a few minutes into the match.

This means that there's a couple things that will probably make Ise's performance somewhat unpredictable. 1) The player that's using her needs to be able to use the utility of her aircraft well, and 2) Assuming the player with Ise knows how to use her to effectively spot, deny, and harass, their team needs to know to capitalize on the utility she provides, because she can't do it herself due to the relatively low damage characteristics and long cooldown of her aircraft.

This means she may end up being utterly unimpressive in the hands of some players or on some teams, whereas sometimes she may just be that thing that got all of (or a decent portion of) the DDs opposing her wiped out (with the help of other ships actually shooting at the DDs she spots).

This leads to the question: If she's overperforming in the hands of a certain subset of players that understand how to use her, yet underperforming or being utterly average with the rest of players, how do you balance this? In this case, the answer would probably be to remove the part of her kit that makes her overperform in the certain subset (probably spotting), but as I said, I don't see this happening. Which probably means she probably just gets left in a place where she's statistically average across the playerbase, even if she's incredibly oppressive in the hands of a player that understands the how to abuse her utility.

[Kamiyama]

Originally posted by casualsailor:

I just can't see wasting money on a pig in a poke. You are literally purchasing a ship for the momentary ability to exploit its newness. But Wargaming will likely nerf the ship or change the matchmaking such that the fun you are having today with it is short lived.

Read the fine print before making your purchase. And remember...NO REFUNDS.

If deemed necessary, balance changes may be applied to Ise.

It's already too weak. How much more could it possibly be nerfed?

It's a floating brick that barks like a dog. It seems a lot of players are afraid of the dog barking at them.

That torpedo wall LOOKS intimidating but you can just let it hit. It's not going to do much when it hits you.

[Kamiyama]

Originally posted by Jack:

Originally posted by Kamiyama:

The Ise has a really strong hull and really weak weapons.

I've found that you have to shoot HE all the time. At tier 6 its AP shells are too weak to penetrate anything. HE at least does some damage, but it's a piddly amount of damage just like its torpedoes.

That's definitely not true. My first 3 games were 72k, 57k, and 101k damage. I don't think I fired a single HE set aside from 1 or 2 at a DD here or there. I found them to be very good guns, other than their traverse is slow and the rear guns are nearly useless while kiting. Keep practicing, but I wouldn't give up on AP.

After playing the Ise I took my Graf Spee out for a spin. AP shot by the Graf Spee is terrifying and penetrates almost everything.

Why do the 283mm guns on the Graf Spee seem to hit harder than the 356mm guns on the Ise?

Looking on the Wiki the Graf Spee even has less damage per shell. But I rake in the citadels with the Graf Spee. It punches hard. I just don't get that with the Ise.

Ise's ballistics are so slow. They float in the air a long time and tickle when they finally touch the enemy ship.

[Kamiyama]

Does WoWs take shell velocity into consideration when it calculates armor penetration?

This could be why the Ise's AP seems to suck.

It might need a shell velocity buff.

[Kamiyama]

Come to find out the wiki does have an initial shell velocity stat.

Graf Spee AP: 910 m/s
Ise AP: 775 m/s

That extra 135 m/s seems to count for something.

I'm not good at math I'm just saying take each of them for a spin and shoot AP. Tell me what you think.

[casualsailor]

Originally posted by Lavian:

Originally posted by casualsailor:

I just can't see wasting money on a pig in a poke. You are literally purchasing a ship for the momentary ability to exploit its newness. But Wargaming will likely nerf the ship or change the matchmaking such that the fun you are having today with it is short lived.

Read the fine print before making your purchase. And remember...NO REFUNDS.

Doubt they'd change the matchmaking particularly with a rare ship type that doesn't even exist in the tech tree. As far as balancing the ship: that could be difficult.

snip

First, I don't think this is a one off design. They are planning a Tier 8 Hybrid CA. Couple that with the Dutch CA Airstrike mechanism and you see that Wargaming is changing the meta of this game to be much more air intensive. And given the apparent success of the launch it's likely Wargaming will continue to introduce more Premium hybrids going forward.

But your point about DDs is well taken. Being a DD primary on the receiving end of a Ise division coupled with a CV in an Epicenter match I found the experience to be undesirable to put it mildly.

It's bad enough that the DD has few ways to counter a CV. When you in essence have 4 squadrons attacking a single DD simultaneously the results are rather predictable.

I fear the consequences for this new meta will be the demise of the DD. And that may be Wargaming's plan to force the DD drivers to switch to submarines later this year.

For me personally, it will be the straw which breaks the camel's back and the reason I quit playing the game permanently.

[casualsailor]

Originally posted by Kamiyama:

Originally posted by casualsailor:

I just can't see wasting money on a pig in a poke. You are literally purchasing a ship for the momentary ability to exploit its newness. But Wargaming will likely nerf the ship or change the matchmaking such that the fun you are having today with it is short lived.

Read the fine print before making your purchase. And remember...NO REFUNDS.

It's already too weak. How much more could it possibly be nerfed?

It's a floating brick that barks like a dog. It seems a lot of players are afraid of the dog barking at them.

That torpedo wall LOOKS intimidating but you can just let it hit. It's not going to do much when it hits you.

It depends upon what you are in. A Minekaze or Nicholas barely has 12k hit points and no torpedo bulges to reduce the damage.

But it's not just the damage eating one or more of the torpedoes can do. I found the ability for the Ise to drive a DD to be impressive. Unlike a torpedo drop from a CV that a DD can dodge when that wall of torps comes of a DD's wake he's forced to run along with it for a dangerous amount of time until it spreads out enough for him to slam on the breaks and wait for it to pass. And due to the slow nature of the Ise's torps this leaves the DD moving either in a straight line for a long period of time while spotted or sitting still for a long time.

Add 2 more Ise's and a CV against the DD while he is dodging the first Ise's attack and even if the DD is not destroyed by air power the effect of being simultaneously permaspotted, driven from cover and forced along predictable straight vectors does not fair the DD well.

[kamikazi21358]

Originally posted by Kamiyama:

Originally posted by casualsailor:

I just can't see wasting money on a pig in a poke. You are literally purchasing a ship for the momentary ability to exploit its newness. But Wargaming will likely nerf the ship or change the matchmaking such that the fun you are having today with it is short lived.

Read the fine print before making your purchase. And remember...NO REFUNDS.

It's already too weak. How much more could it possibly be nerfed?

It's a floating brick that barks like a dog. It seems a lot of players are afraid of the dog barking at them.

That torpedo wall LOOKS intimidating but you can just let it hit. It's not going to do much when it hits you.

The Ise is an uparmored Fūso-class, with better AAA, unless the two back guns were indescribably important, it’s one scary brick. While it trades in the back guns, the torpedoes can still strike anything on the map at any angle, but “let it hit” is half your health in a cruiser, almost all of it in a destroyer. While I’ve seen Ise squads wipe out half a battleships health with just the torpedoes. It adds up, even excluding flooding.

The battleship by itself, for the most part, if you gave it it’s rear guns, it alone is a tier 7. The ship itself is very strong, and the aircraft aspect is debatable in strength, I have never seen anyone call it weak. But even so, “let it hit” — wasn’t the whole idea originally to “just dodge”? Which is it? Let it hit? Or make the attack dodgable like almost every other attack in the game?

[Lavian]

Originally posted by casualsailor:

Originally posted by Lavian:

Doubt they'd change the matchmaking particularly with a rare ship type that doesn't even exist in the tech tree. As far as balancing the ship: that could be difficult.

snip

First, I don't think this is a one off design. They are planning a Tier 8 Hybrid CA. Couple that with the Dutch CA Airstrike mechanism and you see that Wargaming is changing the meta of this game to be much more air intensive. And given the apparent success of the launch it's likely Wargaming will continue to introduce more Premium hybrids going forward.

But your point about DDs is well taken. Being a DD primary on the receiving end of a Ise division coupled with a CV in an Epicenter match I found the experience to be undesirable to put it mildly.

It's bad enough that the DD has few ways to counter a CV. When you in essence have 4 squadrons attacking a single DD simultaneously the results are rather predictable.

I fear the consequences for this new meta will be the demise of the DD. And that may be Wargaming's plan to force the DD drivers to switch to submarines later this year.

For me personally, it will be the straw which breaks the camel's back and the reason I quit playing the game permanently.

When I said, "rare ship type", I didn't mean in game. I meant in reality.

Even if WoWs got every single aviation cruiser and battleship to ever be created put into it, it would still be a relatively rare ship type in game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_cruiser#Aircraft_cruisers

[Kynsho]

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

Originally posted by Kynsho:

Agreed, refund people's money who bought them and get rid of the damned things. The last thing the game needs is more sky cancer. But it won't happen, WG makes enough money off collectors and kids buying shiny new ships to cover the lost subscriptions.

Just another reason to YOLO when you end up in broken matchmaking.

Or play smarter, now that there is the Ise, although it has plenty of issues, at least it makes people actually play smarter as a team, in a fleet, instead of going off on their own and getting deleted.

Though I have noticed, it seems like everyone has the same simple minded solution for stuff they don’t like. It doesn’t matter what game — I don’t like it, so it should be removed. This is why we can’t have nice things, “I don’t like it so it should be banned”, “I don’t like it so it should be removed”.

This addition doesn't inherently "make" people play smarter, it simply affects the way people play and approach a match in general - for better or worse. It's just another variable, and all the variables have never motivated team cohesiveness or stopped people going off on their own getting deleted! :D

And it is human nature that people don't appreciate sudden changes to what they're used to, whether it's a hybrid battleship in a video game or the government telling them they have to start wearing masks. Whatever it is, people generally get used to and accept change, but in the meanwhile grumble - as voters or as gamers. So you see, your observation isn't about "simple minded" excuses to not want others to have nice things, it's simply a "WTF is going on to my (game, country, favorite restaurant, etc.)"

WG isn't going to remove the Ise of course, but they see enough dissatisfaction surrounding it amongst the players and it may affect their decisions in the future. Or it may not. Either way, this is just another example why as humans we do express ourselves, whether with compliments or with criticisms.

[casualsailor]

Originally posted by Lavian:

Originally posted by casualsailor:

First, I don't think this is a one off design. They are planning a Tier 8 Hybrid CA. Couple that with the Dutch CA Airstrike mechanism and you see that Wargaming is changing the meta of this game to be much more air intensive. And given the apparent success of the launch it's likely Wargaming will continue to introduce more Premium hybrids going forward.

But your point about DDs is well taken. Being a DD primary on the receiving end of a Ise division coupled with a CV in an Epicenter match I found the experience to be undesirable to put it mildly.

It's bad enough that the DD has few ways to counter a CV. When you in essence have 4 squadrons attacking a single DD simultaneously the results are rather predictable.

I fear the consequences for this new meta will be the demise of the DD. And that may be Wargaming's plan to force the DD drivers to switch to submarines later this year.

For me personally, it will be the straw which breaks the camel's back and the reason I quit playing the game permanently.

When I said, "rare ship type", I didn't mean in game. I meant in reality.

Even if WoWs got every single aviation cruiser and battleship to ever be created put into it, it would still be a relatively rare ship type in game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_cruiser#Aircraft_cruisers

That is a fair point. But has Wargaming ever restricted themselves to only ships which were actually built? Even the ZF-6 is a "paper ship."

[casualsailor]

Originally posted by Kynsho:

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

Or play smarter, now that there is the Ise, although it has plenty of issues, at least it makes people actually play smarter as a team, in a fleet, instead of going off on their own and getting deleted.

Though I have noticed, it seems like everyone has the same simple minded solution for stuff they don’t like. It doesn’t matter what game — I don’t like it, so it should be removed. This is why we can’t have nice things, “I don’t like it so it should be banned”, “I don’t like it so it should be removed”.

This addition doesn't inherently "make" people play smarter, it simply affects the way people play and approach a match in general - for better or worse. It's just another variable, and all the variables have never motivated team cohesiveness or stopped people going off on their own getting deleted! :D

And it is human nature that people don't appreciate sudden changes to what they're used to, whether it's a hybrid battleship in a video game or the government telling them they have to start wearing masks. Whatever it is, people generally get used to and accept change, but in the meanwhile grumble - as voters or as gamers. So you see, your observation isn't about "simple minded" excuses to not want others to have nice things, it's simply a "WTF is going on to my (game, country, favorite restaurant, etc.)"

WG isn't going to remove the Ise of course, but they see enough dissatisfaction surrounding it amongst the players and it may affect their decisions in the future. Or it may not. Either way, this is just another example why as humans we do express ourselves, whether with compliments or with criticisms.

I'm not certain I would want to play a game where I had to YOLO several times in a row in order to get what I consider to be a favorable match.

Of course I don't supposed there is any real downside in doing so. Player statistics and karma are insignificant.

But thinking about it, if I had the option to exit a match before it begins, even if I had to wait a couple of minutes to requeue, then I would probably do so.

I don't think Wargaming would care for that. Can you imagine if even 20-30% of players refused to accept unfavorable matchmaking and YOLO'd in order to requeue in another ship? I suspect Wargaming would need to come up with an way to punish players who did so.

But if Wargaming did try to punish its players that would just hasten their exodus from the game.

[Asfalots der Sittenwart]

Originally posted by Jack:

That's definitely not true. My first 3 games were 72k, 57k, and 101k damage. I don't think I fired a single HE set aside from 1 or 2 at a DD here or there. I found them to be very good guns, other than their traverse is slow and the rear guns are nearly useless while kiting. Keep practicing, but I wouldn't give up on AP.

I think HE definetly has a place on Ise, whenever I start a torprun I switch to HE, strike with the torps and hope I get a flooding and then follow up with HE since most people use repair after getting flooded for a nice permafire.
But I agree, her Guns are very good AP guns like Kongo.

[Jackson]

Originally posted by casualsailor:

Originally posted by Lavian:

When I said, "rare ship type", I didn't mean in game. I meant in reality.

Even if WoWs got every single aviation cruiser and battleship to ever be created put into it, it would still be a relatively rare ship type in game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_cruiser#Aircraft_cruisers

That is a fair point. But has Wargaming ever restricted themselves to only ships which were actually built? Even the ZF-6 is a "paper ship."

No, not in any of their games. That would make it pretty one side to the Allied nations. Many trees would not have T10. No UK BB above T8, no Japanese cruisers above 8. No Japanese BB at 8 or 9. It'd be a mess