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roughrider1988 Mar 1, 2021 @ 8:18pm
Unplayable.
WoWS is completely unplayable now. The whole team's BBS run to A10 so dead eye will work, the other team has a pair and pushes right through the caps and encircles our team huddling in the corner. Matches take 5 minutes now and are steam rolls. The last few days I play just enough to get my daily containers and the quit. Seriously, who wants to grind ships with the game the way it us now?
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Originally posted by Lavian:
Originally posted by Der Auslander:
Originally posted by Lavian:
They're spotted at that point, so the the idea is that you shoot them, because they're relatively close to you.

Without Deadeye, yes. But:

Any ship within detectability range to you denies you deadeye - even a ship behind 2 islands and unable to be shot at, 14km away from you spotted by someone else across the map denies you a 4pt skill.

A ship you cannot interact with. A ship unable to be shot at, interacted with, or even engaging can suddenly make your captain 4pts less useful

So in what actual way is deadeye really useful outside of 14km engagements while hoping nobody is spotted within your detection range?

Now consider this:

How useful is a 4pt skill on a ship that can at any moment denied outside of opening engagements, and subsequently: is it really with 4 points over something significantly more useful such as Fire Prevention, Concealment, or even Manual secondaries, Massed AA - skills that work 100% of the time


Just take aiming mod and save yourself 4 points
Yes, and I mentioned this.
Ideally speaking - in reality, there's a fair chance you don't have a clear shot on them because of islands if they've pushed up that far
It depends on your spotting range and positioning though. It's less likely for this to happen when you're on the outer flank, and even not in this situation, the chances of an enemy being inside your detection while at another cap isn't particularly high, unless they, or you, are inside one of the caps. If that's the case, you're pushing down your flank, they're pushing down their flank, or they should be dead or pushed back in relatively short order.

As far as other skills:
FP - FP is more useful, yes.
AA skills - AA only helps when there's a CV, and when that CV is targeting you or someone near you. It's doing literally nothing for you the vast majority of the time, and you have no influence on when it does happen to help.
Concealment - Concealment is what you would normally take, but could debatable depending on ship. This is usually taken with Dead Eye to make it so it's easier to keep in effect, however, so it's not usually not an either-or here.
Manual secondaries - unless you're German, or a specific subset of USN and French BBs, then Dead Eye is the obviously better, no contest. Even the buffed standard secondary ranges of a number of ships doesn't change the fact that your secondaries do nothing the vast majority of the time.
Not mentioned but:
Obviously you take Emergency Repair Expert over Dead Eye, as even if you don't use the extra heal, it's 10% more healing per heal (and an extra DCP if you're Russian).

The problem with Dead Eye is that at T4, there's 4 obvious things you might/probably want to invest points into otherwise: Brawling (on certain ships), Heals, Concealment, and Fire Mitigation. You can at most take 3 skills at this tier, since there's only 21 points, and taking 3 takes at least 18 points.

Originally posted by Falter:
In one argument you're saying that the 5 minute games suck because oh no, battleships who go into the back and try to use deadeye are the cause. But, then on the other, you say deadeye is good so you should use it.
Can you make up your mind?
These aren't mutually exclusive, and I didn't say Dead Eye is good. My argument is that it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. If players use it badly, that isn't the skill being bad, that's the player being bad. It encouraging players to play badly does not mean the skill itself cannot be used effectively when understood.

Originally posted by Falter:
Plus, in most cases, the player who just lost deadeye isn't going to be accurate enough to even kill the ship spotted inside his detection range either.
If you can't hit something within 15 km with cannons, it really doesn't matter what your skill build is. This has nothing to do with the skill and everything to do with the player.

Originally posted by Falter:
There is literally no reason to ever use deadeye, ever. Unless you're willingly announcing that you can't shoot, and are too scared to properly angle your battleship in battle, and to play her correctly. Deadeye banks on the fact that you won't ever be shot at.
The game uses a semi-random formula to calculate where your shells land. Dead Eye affects that formula. If you're good at shooting, it helps you deal more damage more reliably because your guns have a smaller spread than otherwise in specific situations. If you're bad at shooting, then it kind of depends on just how bad you are, since a little bit more randomness might actually be helping you if you're bad enough.

Dead Eye has nothing to do with if you're being shot at. It has everything to do with if an enemy is spotted within your detection range. An undetected DD, cruiser, or CV may well be spotting you while you're being fired upon. Furthermore, you may be getting fired upon due to your detection range blooming to your gun range for 20 seconds whenever you fire.

"A good player understands that his team may not always be able to be relied upon. But, a unicum understands that every salvo taken away from the enemy that could be shot at his team is what is more important."
This quote says nothing about Dead Eye. Nothing about Dead Eye stops you from being able to engage in denial of any kind. Nothing about the skill prevents you from engaging in any kind of play. It's simply a skill that makes you more accurate when an enemy isn't spotted within your detection radius. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Showing 16-30 of 43 comments
Jackson Mar 2, 2021 @ 12:43pm 
Originally posted by You Die0244:
Originally posted by Jack:
*Tried deadeye*
*found it useless*
*got an extra heal instead*
*lives longer ~ does more damage*
Really Jack deadeye useless lots of videos say different, and setting new records with It...the people who don't want It are the crs and dd players there always crying ,they go out of there way to get rid of It because It helps them not the game......
They're wrong.

#16
sneakybass Mar 2, 2021 @ 12:51pm 
Originally posted by Jack:
Originally posted by You Die0244:
Really Jack deadeye useless lots of videos say different, and setting new records with It...the people who don't want It are the crs and dd players there always crying ,they go out of there way to get rid of It because It helps them not the game......
They're wrong.
This game has a lot more problems than deadeye ..........
#17
FalterXV TTV Mar 2, 2021 @ 1:31pm 
There really is no point to running deadeye.
Everything deadeye does, is already done in the most basic ship modules in game without needing to be affected by a gimmick.
Oh, and I'm a battlecruiser (battleship,) main, fyi. I even purposefully play powercreep only by choice.

However,
For example :

Aiming Systems 1 modification which can be fit on every ship except the US ships from T5 and up gives a flat +7% increase to dispersion without you needing to build a specific captain build to run it.
In other words, you can build a ship outfitted for secondary, and run an aiming mod on the ship (which will lower your total secondary range by only 1 kilometer,) and get "deadeye" and a secondary build together. But, the main difference is you will have increased accuracy all the time at all ranges, but especially in close range where it matters the most. Thusly, giving you a vastly superior ship.

What people forget the most about deadeye, is that you can still angle, anticipate, and dodge shells fired at you. It doesn't give you a win button.

US ships (in general) already have extremely high dispersion, and sigma, and therefore ironically don't benefit from deadeye in the way people think they are benefiting from it. The ships with lower sigma are the ones that do.
(Which ironically, deadeye success is just placebo since it only works against potatoes who aren't paying attention and who would have been slapped regardless.)

US ships T9 and up have access to the plotting room ship module upgrade which give a flat +12% increase to their already extremely accurate guns. Essentially nullifying the reason to even get deadeye for even them!

The difference between a 21 point deadeye build, and a 21 point hybrid spec is vast. And, if the hybrid is running aiming module on top of it, there is simply no comparison.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtulnSh29GQ

Never, ever run deadeye. It literally doesn't benefit you. Because dispersion (vertical and horizontal,) works in a cone. And, at the range you need to be to use deadeye to work (15k and beyond,) you're basically getting nothing for nothing.
And 10% more of nothing isn't something. It's still nothing.

*Please check the pinned comment
Last edited by FalterXV TTV; Mar 3, 2021 @ 1:32am
#18
roughrider1988 Mar 2, 2021 @ 4:03pm 
Originally posted by You Die0244:
Originally posted by roughrider1988:
WoWS is completely unplayable now. The whole team's BBS run to A10 so dead eye will work, the other team has a pair and pushes right through the caps and encircles our team huddling in the corner. Matches take 5 minutes now and are steam rolls. The last few days I play just enough to get my daily containers and the quit. Seriously, who wants to grind ships with the game the way it us now?
Roughrider I looked at your pics got your game name you play mostly Destroyers 45% crs 34% and bbs22% your just trying to get bbs nerfed because you have to deal with them just like 80% other people always crying about It . And you other people on this post here are doing the same thing I have seen this behavior time and time again In this game . I saw your stats you need some help to be blaming this on deadeye really. Im not the best player either but I don't blame It on deadeye.....
If you read my post you'll see that I described the situation where my team's BBs seem to run to the map borders while the other team pushes and they roll us. That has happened much more since dead eye. Did I blame it exclusively on dead eye, I don't think so. But the point was it has encouraged ships to be 25k away from the action and unable to provide any support. So once the enemy kills our DDs the team is pooched. And comments like stop crying contribute absolutely nothing to the conversation.
#19
Jackson Mar 2, 2021 @ 4:12pm 
Originally posted by roughrider1988:
Originally posted by You Die0244:
Roughrider I looked at your pics got your game name you play mostly Destroyers 45% crs 34% and bbs22% your just trying to get bbs nerfed because you have to deal with them just like 80% other people always crying about It . And you other people on this post here are doing the same thing I have seen this behavior time and time again In this game . I saw your stats you need some help to be blaming this on deadeye really. Im not the best player either but I don't blame It on deadeye.....
If you read my post you'll see that I described the situation where my team's BBs seem to run to the map borders while the other team pushes and they roll us. That has happened much more since dead eye. Did I blame it exclusively on dead eye, I don't think so. But the point was it has encouraged ships to be 25k away from the action and unable to provide any support. So once the enemy kills our DDs the team is pooched. And comments like stop crying contribute absolutely nothing to the conversation.
It hardly matters since both teams do it. Means it's still an even playing field.
#20
Lavian Mar 2, 2021 @ 6:00pm 
Originally posted by Falter:
There really is no point to running deadeye.
Everything deadeye does, is already done in the most basic ship modules in game without needing to be affected by a gimmick.

<snip>

Never, ever run deadeye. It literally doesn't benefit you. Because dispersion (vertical and horizontal,) works in a cone. And, at the range you need to be to use deadeye to work (15k and beyond,) you're basically getting nothing for nothing.
And 10% more of nothing isn't something. It's still nothing.
A lot of your post hinges on the idea that ASM and Dead Eye are mutually exclusive. They aren't. There's nothing stopping you from taking both and getting the benefit of both.

The effect isn't small either. From the testing that's been done, it appears to lower both vertical and horizontal dispersion by 10% a piece, so you're actually getting a dispersion area that's 81% the size of your dispersion without it. The further you are from the enemy, the more total square meters that's going to be counting for.

Also, it should be noted that USN BBs have standard dispersion values, along with German and British vessels. IJN vessels are more accurate. Soviet vessels are more accurate at ranges closer than 14 km (horizontally speaking, not sure how things pan out when vertical dispersion is taken into account since we don't have those numbers). Italian and French vessels have poorer dispersion. None of this is taking into account sigma, which is the value that makes shells trend toward the center of your dispersion, rather than having an even distribution.

USN vessels also notably suffer from low shell velocity, which makes them easier to actively dodge at long ranges.

The idea with Dead Eye, when used well, is that you're more accurate when you're stuck in longer range engagements, and when it's no longer active, it's because an enemy is close enough for you to punish them hard for getting within your spotting range (ideally speaking - in reality, there's a fair chance you don't have a clear shot on them because of islands if they've pushed up that far). The issue this thread is bringing up is people using it extremely poorly, and throwing out good positioning just to have the skill active.

As far as value as a skill, the question is if it's worth spending 4 points on, which is certainly up for debate.

You do have to admit, regardless of the skill's value, you do groan when the first thing you see happen in a battle is your allied BB(s) go into full reverse. Don't think I saw that ever happen before the skill rework. They would hang back, sure, but watching a BB go into full reverse as soon as we spawn in has been a new experience for me. Fortunately, a rare experience.
Last edited by Lavian; Mar 2, 2021 @ 6:01pm
#21
dakin1 Mar 2, 2021 @ 6:17pm 
Originally posted by roughrider1988:
If you read my post you'll see that I described the situation where my team's BBs seem to run to the map borders while the other team pushes and they roll us. That has happened much more since dead eye. Did I blame it exclusively on dead eye, I don't think so. But the point was it has encouraged ships to be 25k away from the action and unable to provide any support. So once the enemy kills our DDs the team is pooched. And comments like stop crying contribute absolutely nothing to the conversation.

Here I will agree with roughrider--in one of the last games I played before deciding to quit and take a break for a while we had 3 BBs and a DD on our flank. One of our BB moved towards central position to create a cross-fire opportunity while myself and (I thought) our other BB (a Nagato) moved towards the flank to engage and fix the position of the enemy BBs. Unfortunately our DD died but managed to get off a nice torpedo spread that took out one enemy BB. However the enemy DD was now free to maneuver into us and my BB died from fighting 2 enemy BBs (iirc a KGV and Strasbourg spamming HE and starting fires left and right) and dodging torpedoes. The central BB was now outnumbered and also died after trading for an enemy BB. I look at minimap only to see our Nagato sitting full health in the corner doing essentially nothing but firing 20 km volleys into an angled opponent that do no damage (because deadeye, hur hur). Flank collapses and by the time the Nagato gets off his bum to engage the steamroll is already underway. If only the other BB was with us to help spot the DD and engage the enemy BB's at a range where he could actually deal damage maybe we could have killed the DD and used our crossfire positions to hold the flank. Needless to say this was frustrating in the very least.
#22
FalterXV TTV Mar 2, 2021 @ 7:22pm 
Originally posted by Lavian:
The idea with Dead Eye, when used well, is that you're more accurate when you're stuck in longer range engagements, and when it's no longer active, it's because an enemy is close enough for you to punish them hard for getting within your spotting range (ideally speaking - in reality, there's a fair chance you don't have a clear shot on them because of islands if they've pushed up that far). The issue this thread is bringing up is people using it extremely poorly, and throwing out good positioning just to have the skill active..

Last I checked, 15k away from a cap circle no matter what, is not good positioning, ever.
Deadeye and AMS, especially on the ships that can take them, are not mutually exclusive.

What is mutually exclusive is that, you either play the game as your ship and role is supposed to. Or, you sit at the back and get run over by everyone for a smattering of good accuracy that in most cases as you even say, can be anticipated, dodged, and angled.
But, if you have AMS then you can support your team, make pushes, and even continue to stay accurate even outside your detection range.

IE: There is no reason to ever take deadeye on any ship.
#23
Lavian Mar 2, 2021 @ 7:37pm 
Originally posted by Falter:
Originally posted by Lavian:
The idea with Dead Eye, when used well, is that you're more accurate when you're stuck in longer range engagements, and when it's no longer active, it's because an enemy is close enough for you to punish them hard for getting within your spotting range (ideally speaking - in reality, there's a fair chance you don't have a clear shot on them because of islands if they've pushed up that far). The issue this thread is bringing up is people using it extremely poorly, and throwing out good positioning just to have the skill active..

Last I checked, 15k away from a cap circle no matter what, is not good positioning, ever.
Deadeye and AMS, especially on the ships that can take them, are not mutually exclusive.

What is mutually exclusive is that, you either play the game as your ship and role is supposed to. Or, you sit at the back and get run over by everyone for a smattering of good accuracy that in most cases as you even say, can be anticipated, dodged, and angled.
But, if you have AMS then you can support your team, make pushes, and even continue to stay accurate even outside your detection range.

IE: There is no reason to ever take deadeye on any ship.
Most ships don't sit literally inside cap. That usually ends with them dead, and fast, so you don't need to be that far from cap.
#24
sneakybass Mar 2, 2021 @ 8:42pm 
Originally posted by Falter:
There really is no point to running deadeye.
Everything deadeye does, is already done in the most basic ship modules in game without needing to be affected by a gimmick.
Oh, and I'm a battlecruiser (battleship,) main, fyi. I even purposefully play powercreep only by choice.

However,
For example :

Aiming Systems 1 modification which can be fit on every ship except the US ships from T5 and up gives a flat +7% increase to dispersion without you needing to build a specific captain build to run it.
In other words, you can build a ship outfitted for secondary, and run an aiming mod on the ship (which will lower your total secondary range by only 1 kilometer,) and get "deadeye" and a secondary build together. But, the main difference is you will have increased accuracy all the time at all ranges, but especially in close range where it matters the most. Thusly, giving you a vastly superior ship.

What people forget the most about deadeye, is that you can still angle, anticipate, and dodge shells fired at you. It doesn't give you a win button.

US ships (in general) already have extremely high dispersion, and sigma, and therefore ironically don't benefit from deadeye in the way people think they are benefiting from it. The ships with lower sigma are the ones that do.
(Which ironically, deadeye success is just placebo since it only works against potatoes who aren't paying attention and who would have been slapped regardless.)

US ships T9 and up have access to the plotting room ship module upgrade which give a flat +12% increase to their already extremely accurate guns. Essentially nullifying the reason to even get deadeye for even them!

The difference between a 21 point deadeye build, and a 21 point hybrid spec is vast. And, if the hybrid is running aiming module on top of it, there is simply no comparison.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtulnSh29GQ

Never, ever run deadeye. It literally doesn't benefit you. Because dispersion (vertical and horizontal,) works in a cone. And, at the range you need to be to use deadeye to work (15k and beyond,) you're basically getting nothing for nothing.
And 10% more of nothing isn't something. It's still nothing.
This guy messaged me to try out deadeye to see If its any better than no dead eye, what he did was come in and lie about why he was there . I thought he was one of my clan members asking for help he was lieing to me ,so we went Into a training battle and he had a Scharnhorst with lots of battles on It , he had one for me too so I said I don't play the ship but sure i had a captain on the ship told him I had no captains skills or equipment skills at all or deadeye, so the game starts I thought he was going to shoot at distance proving no difference, I was typing at the time when he shot my ship before I even know whats going on were 1vs 1 well he wins and he starts typing all sorts of nasty stuff Insults so i just blocked him and then he threatned me posting this video hes one sick person....and guess what did not prove a thing about dead eye but hes a lied but there Is some thing wrong with him...I was just trying to help him. Watch the video I was typing when he shot me trying to help him out...not to say anything about his pics...
Last edited by sneakybass; Mar 2, 2021 @ 9:12pm
#25
Jackson Mar 2, 2021 @ 8:57pm 
Yep, he tried to troll me into battle too. Fortunately he went off on me before the battle started so I knew what he was about right off. Don't worry about it, just ignore him. Thanks for trying to help though! Game needs more players like that.
#26
sneakybass Mar 2, 2021 @ 9:06pm 
Originally posted by Jack:
Yep, he tried to troll me into battle too. Fortunately he went off on me before the battle started so I knew what he was about right off. Don't worry about it, just ignore him. Thanks for trying to help though! Game needs more players like that.
Thanks read the messages while you watch the video I never posted anything about Roughrider and his win rates just what ships he plays with most to prove a point.......But he posted them In the video not me....I even stated I was not that great a player on my post to Roughrider. Its just every time i check a person backgound after he says dead eye Is ruining the game every dam time there crs or dd players trying to get dds nurfed again to help themselfs. I hope WG gives bbs some thing really good that all the crs and dd players cry even more. Kind of tired of bbs getting the short end of the stick and always getting WG to nerf bbs into the ground......
Last edited by sneakybass; Mar 2, 2021 @ 10:41pm
#27
sneakybass Mar 2, 2021 @ 10:30pm 
Originally posted by Jack:
Originally posted by roughrider1988:
If you read my post you'll see that I described the situation where my team's BBs seem to run to the map borders while the other team pushes and they roll us. That has happened much more since dead eye. Did I blame it exclusively on dead eye, I don't think so. But the point was it has encouraged ships to be 25k away from the action and unable to provide any support. So once the enemy kills our DDs the team is pooched. And comments like stop crying contribute absolutely nothing to the conversation.
It hardly matters since both teams do it. Means it's still an even playing field.
Right on Jack that's the way I see it.
#28
Banzai Mar 3, 2021 @ 12:38am 
Why would you post that video in this thread? I actually agree with your points about deadeye and have said the same about the skill, but a video of you trashtalking about it while you pwn someone who is completely stock in a mirror 1v1* doesnt really prove anything apart from your need to boost your ego. Maybe.

Strange.

Back to OP - both teams will have the same potential issue. Adapt etc.

*Was amused by the mods you are using btw. There is quite a lively debate about the one that shows speed and heading of your target. inb4 "you can see this info from smokestack" etc - only sometimes. Completely legal of course - not suggesting hax.

Edit: And double lol at being reported for "insinuating hacks" and for being off topic when questioning why the video was posted above. Reading skills are over rated.

Edit 2: At least report with your main account btw rather than hiding behind an alt.
Last edited by Banzai; Mar 3, 2021 @ 6:13am
#29
Nfected Mar 3, 2021 @ 9:15am 
Originally posted by Lavian:
Originally posted by Falter:

Last I checked, 15k away from a cap circle no matter what, is not good positioning, ever.
Deadeye and AMS, especially on the ships that can take them, are not mutually exclusive.

What is mutually exclusive is that, you either play the game as your ship and role is supposed to. Or, you sit at the back and get run over by everyone for a smattering of good accuracy that in most cases as you even say, can be anticipated, dodged, and angled.
But, if you have AMS then you can support your team, make pushes, and even continue to stay accurate even outside your detection range.

IE: There is no reason to ever take deadeye on any ship.
Most ships don't sit literally inside cap. That usually ends with them dead, and fast, so you don't need to be that far from cap.

The other key problem with deadeye is its deactivated with visible ships

You could close in on a cap but the moment a DD or CL is spotted within 15km, the BB loses deadeye even if undetected

Its partially bad game design when your skills can be activated or deactivated by someone you cant interact with - but at the same time, losing deadeye because an unspotted DD is stalking you would annoy any backline BB
Last edited by Nfected; Mar 3, 2021 @ 9:16am
#30
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Date Posted: Mar 1, 2021 @ 8:18pm
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